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Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-02, 02:02 PM
Welcome friends, one and all. This is a small guide to helping you choose what class you should use with the Prestige Bard/Ranger/Paladin. This guide is not here to help you optimise those classes, there are plenty of guides for that.

This entire guide is my personal opinion, your's can differ.

What are they?
Prestige Bard, Paladin and Ranger, as you might have guessed, are Prestige Class versions of the Bard, Paladin and Ranger. These appeared in Unearthed Arcana, but are also available on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm).

Should you use them?

Prestige Paladin and Ranger? Absolutely. If the option to use them is available, do so.

Prestige Bard? This is an odd one. If regular Bard isn't available, this is brilliant. If both are available, it really depends. Generaly, I would recomend that you use it, but you may find that normal Bard is better for you.




Colour coding
Green: Absolutely fantastic, the best choice.
Blue: As good as Green, but using them has some convoluted or costly entry.
Purple: Pretty darned good, but still only above average.
Black: Average. Might be useful, might not. Depends on you, really.
Brown: Below average, might be useful in certain circumstances. But on the whole? Don’t use them.
Red: Very poor choice. Don’t even bother.


Prestige Bard

(NOTE: It is assumed that the Apprentice feat, DMG II, is being used to give you Perform)

BASE:
Hexblade (Complete Warrior)
No.. Just. No. 4th level, few spells and very weak ones at that. Don’t even think about it.

Warlock (Complete Arcane)
You need a single level of Wizard (If you can use PHB II, use Beguiler instead), for the spell requirement, but from then on out, you use Bard to progress your Warlock levels. This gives you standard Bard abilities, combined with Greater Invocations, and 7d6 Eldritch Blast. Let your foes fear your might!

Wizard (Player’s handbook)
It’s an Int based caster. On a Bard. If you get lucky and have the stats to spare, maybe. But as a whole, there are much better choices. This is average because you do get 8th level spells. As a 1 level dip, for spellcasting requirements, it shifts to Green. Provided Beguiler isn’t in use. Then it slides to Black again.

Sorcerer (PHB)
Chances are, this is what they had in mind when they created Prestige Bard. A Charisma based full caster. But it’s not one of the best. Not by a longshot.

Beguiler (PHB II)
Sorcerer may have been the intent, but Beguiler is the Dog’s Testicles. Its spell list is almost completely Divination, Enchantment and Illusion spells, which are all cast at a +2 caster level. Add in to that access to 8th level spells, two more than standard Bard, and you have the ultimate go-to base class for Prestige Bard.

Duskblade (PHB II)
Bard would only ever get access to 4th level spells, most of them would be cast at -2 power level and they are all combat spells. Why isn’t this Red? The sheer number of spells per day.

Spellthief (Complete Adventurer)
Despite my normal disdain for 4th level spells, Spellthieves make for semi-decent Bards, simply because they can nick the spells of other people for their own use. UPDATE: As has been pointed out to me, Master Spellthief, which every Spellthief takes anyway, pushes him up to Blue, because this is the only Class that can give 9th's. It's not Green because Spellthief's built in casting progression is awful.


Warmage (Complete Arcane/Miniatures Handbook)
Despite it being a full caster, it’s all evocation. Ignore it, move on.

Wu-Jen (Complete Arcane)
I have little experience with Wu-Jens, so I can’t make a judgement.

Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic)
Like Warlock, except with fewer invocations. If you don’t have Warlock, this is a suitable substitute, but Warlock is the better bet.

Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
On it's own, DN is red due to the lost caster levels. With practiced spell caster and Requiem, this upgrades to Blue, simply due to the fear inducing panic that is an undead horde empowered by Bardic Music, and all that you can do with that.

PRC
Sometimes, a PrC can do better than a Base Class. Sometimes not. The following are some PrC’s with their own spellcasting. Usualy, you won’t get more than a level or two before you lose Bard levels, so be aware of that. Generally speaking, if a PrC gives less than 6th level spells, don’t bother. Though there are exceptions.

Assassin/Avenger (DMG/Online)
Why are they grouped together? Same class, different entry requirements. 4th level spells, Sneak Attack entry requirements. No, you can do without this.

Vigilante (Complete Adventurer)
Unless you can sneak 33 level 3 spells past your DM, don’t bother here.

Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)
UPDATE: If you take EXACTLY 3 levels of Prestige Bard before you take a level of sublime Chord, this can give you 9th level spells. This bumps it up to green.

Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane)
Fairly decent, you get 5th’s, a -5 to ASF, and a +6 to the dispelling DC of spells. Access to illusion, enchantment, divintiation and transmutation spells. Personally, I think all that outweighs the fact that the first level you can take this class is 7.

Trapsmith (Dungeonscape)
HELL AND NO! 3rd level spells, and very few spells at that. The fact that this is all in red should tell you how much of a bad idea this is.


Corrupt Avenger (Heroes of Horror)
4th's. Need I go on?

Fatemaker (Planar Handbook)
Yet again, 4th level maximum.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-02, 02:03 PM
Reserved for Prestige Paladin.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-02, 02:04 PM
Reserved for Prestige Ranger. You can post now.

Bang
2013-01-02, 02:17 PM
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
It’s a necromancer. Need I say more?

You definitely need to.

Depending how the PrC spell lists are handled, a DN dipping PrC Bard has turning and charisma-based casting, 600ish spells known and access to those spells at the same time or earlier than the normal Bard class.

Warmage has a similarly bloated spell list, but loses the Turning advantage.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-02, 03:43 PM
Prestige Bard casts Necromancy and Evocation spells at a -2 Caster Level.

darksolitaire
2013-01-02, 03:46 PM
Prestige Bard casts Necromancy and Evocation spells at a -2 Caster Level.

Quite irrelevant when you have so huge pool to choose spells from, don't you think?

Fouredged Sword
2013-01-02, 03:49 PM
A single application of practiced spellcaster will rectify that. There is a feat for allowing your music to work on undead. Nitch, but nice none the less. A horde of undead are much more deadly when powered by DFI.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-02, 03:58 PM
That... that's a good point. I'll note that DN upgrades to Blue with Practiced Spellcaster.

gallagher
2013-01-02, 04:09 PM
A single application of practiced spellcaster will rectify that. There is a feat for allowing your music to work on undead. Nitch, but nice none the less. A horde of undead are much more deadly when powered by DFI.

The DFI thing here made me twitch for a second, but I can see the large spell pools and feat rerquirement to keep up with beguiler enough to make them less desireable. I assume they are red because they arent as good compared to all the better options.

I, for one, am a big fan of spellthief-to-prestige bard with master spellthief, and would like to see it rated slightly better. Master spellthief is a feat every ST takes anyway, so its not like this is some unexpected cost

Tokuhara
2013-01-02, 05:47 PM
A single application of practiced spellcaster will rectify that. There is a feat for allowing your music to work on undead. Nitch, but nice none the less. A horde of undead are much more deadly when powered by DFI.

This (http://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=0113#/watch?v=_iRWOnoWFh4)

toapat
2013-01-02, 11:59 PM
Ive never really seen the point to prestiege paladin, other then maybe to further compress Paladin into a single level class which is so dipworthy it makes Wizard look like they are wasting levels

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-03, 08:46 AM
Prestige Paladin has a much bigger spell casting advancement than Prestige Ranger. It's just all about choosing the right class to progress, as this guide aims to help with.

mattie_p
2013-01-03, 09:08 AM
Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)
You need a minimum of 1 Bard level, for Bardic Music, and you can’t take this until level 11. So why is this Blue? You get 8th’s.

Take the first (dead spellcaster level) of Prestige bard prior to Sublime chord to get bardic music. Probably want to spell that out so you don't dip basic bard in order to get what you want.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-03, 09:17 AM
That's what I meant. Generally speaking, Prestige Bard and normal Bard are unavailable together, but I'll make a note of that.

mattie_p
2013-01-03, 10:05 AM
That's what I meant. Generally speaking, Prestige Bard and normal Bard are unavailable together, but I'll make a note of that.

And actually, if you take 3 (and only 3) levels of prestige bard prior to your 1st level of Sublime Chord, you should still get 9th's by level 20.

Psyren
2013-01-03, 11:15 AM
Prestige Paladin's biggest draw is that it gets Divine Grace onto a Cha-based divine caster and only loses 1 CL instead of 2 (from e.g. dipping paladin normally.) The other nice parts are the proficiencies and the paladin spell list.

Byke
2013-01-03, 12:16 PM
Prestige Paladin's biggest draw is that it gets Divine Grace onto a Cha-based divine caster and only loses 1 CL instead of 2 (from e.g. dipping paladin normally.) The other nice parts are the proficiencies and the paladin spell list.

The biggest draw of Prestige Paladin by RAW is that it turns you cleric spell list into a Paladin spell list, taking the feat Battle Blessing thus allows you to auto-quicken all of your spells.

***EDIT it also opens up the possibility of taking the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, which allows you to memorize Wiz/Sorc spells in your spell slots.***

qwertyu63
2013-01-03, 05:26 PM
Looks like a great guide... Just one issue...


Sorcerer (PHB)
Chances are, this is what they had in mind when they created Prestige Bard. A Charisma based full caster. But it’s not one of the best. Not by a longshot.

Magenta is not on your scale. Where does that fall?

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-03, 05:41 PM
It's meant to be purple. I'll change it, but really it's not that much of a difference to matter.

mattie_p
2013-01-03, 05:49 PM
One more thing on sublime chord, then I'll shut up (on that). I'm assuming after 1 level of sublime chord you resume prestige bard, advancing SC casting. That's where the 3 levels of prestige bard prior to taking SC matter. If you go straight SC, why are you in this thread?

Psyren
2013-01-03, 07:08 PM
The biggest draw of Prestige Paladin by RAW is that it turns you cleric spell list into a Paladin spell list, taking the feat Battle Blessing thus allows you to auto-quicken all of your spells.

No - it adds the paladin spells to your spell list, it does not convert your list into a paladin list. Battle Blessing will let you autoquicken any paladin spells you know, but you still won't get autoquicken on non-paladin spells.

JaronK
2013-01-03, 07:20 PM
Ive never really seen the point to prestiege paladin, other then maybe to further compress Paladin into a single level class which is so dipworthy it makes Wizard look like they are wasting levels

Usually, something like Cleric/PrC Paladin of Tyranny/Bone Knight makes for a very powerful class. Or you just go Cleric with a three level dip in PrC Paladin to make a simply better Paladin. Throw in the Holy Mount feat and you even get a better than normal Paladin Mount.

It's also put to great use in the supermount build.

JaronK

Byke
2013-01-03, 07:43 PM
No - it adds the paladin spells to your spell list, it does not convert your list into a paladin list. Battle Blessing will let you autoquicken any paladin spells you know, but you still won't get autoquicken on non-paladin spells.

I would point you to several discussion threads on the subject on the min/max boards, unfortunately they are down at the moment. But the wording leaves it open to interpretation.

toapat
2013-01-03, 08:36 PM
It's also put to great use in the supermount build.

Nope, Supermount builds use Paladin 5 or NG Paladin 5, not Prestiege paladin, because of the requirements for PrC paladin being less helpful to the build.

Psyren
2013-01-03, 10:13 PM
I would point you to several discussion threads on the subject on the min/max boards, unfortunately they are down at the moment. But the wording leaves it open to interpretation.

The quote clearly says you gain the spells. but it says nothing about your list changing. Paladin spells are added to your list, but your list doesn't become the paladin list.

toapat
2013-01-03, 10:18 PM
there is better argument for SotAO working with Battle Blessing then either feat working with PrC paladin at all, and even that is based primarily on the fact that both feats are using semi-non-rules shorthand.

Psyren
2013-01-03, 10:20 PM
That's not what I'm saying though. Battle Blessing does work with PrC Paladin - on the paladin spells.

SotAO might work, I forget the exact wording of that one.

toapat
2013-01-03, 11:01 PM
That's not what I'm saying though. Battle Blessing does work with PrC Paladin - on the paladin spells.

SotAO might work, I forget the exact wording of that one.

technically PrC paladin/ranger dont qualify for the pre-requisites of SotAO

if they do, then the feat doesnt work, because you dont have Paladin or Ranger spell slots.

also, there isnt enough structure around Battle Blessing to actually say it works with PrC paladin. Arguably it can, but arguably you dont have paladin spells, you have cleric spells with access to one of the two most overpowered spells in the game for their spell level