Halfling Monk/Swordsage Questions...

[Cawalski]

Been lurking and researching on the forums for quite a while now. You all are a great source of info and opinion... so I thought I'd ask here...

This build is more for fun and flavor than anything else. The DM has limited resources to PHB, PHB2, and ToB. I got approval for a few outside feats as well.

So lets say I am dual wielding Unarmed Main-hand... short sword off-hand... running the Setting Sun Swordsagel mixed with some Monk. I grabbed Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk... Looking to couple that with improved trip and Mighty Throw and Two Weapon Rend...

What I am wondering... Would the Mighty Throw Touch attack (Unarmed Attack) count as "hitting" the foe for the purpose of two weapon rend? The thought is I throw them to an adjacent square. They take damage from the throw and it is resolved as a trip so I get a free attack. I use off hand weapon for the free attack. Have I now hit them with both weapons allowing me to rend? Two-weapon rend doesn't say anything about damaging with both weapons.

[BowStreetRunner]

Mighty Throw (Setting Sun Strike from ToB) uses a standard action and counts as a trip attack. So if successful would trigger the Improved Trip attack and you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Assuming you use your other weapon for this attack (an unarmed strike counts as a light weapon), you would trigger the Two Weapon Rend.

You are correct that for this to work, you would need to throw them into an adjacent square, or they would be out of range for the Improved Trip attack, and thus the rend damage as well.

[Cawalski]

Ok so an extension on the rend concept then. While not the beefiest damage combo for stances and strikes in ToB, I feel like this gets a bit silly.

If I activate the Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (Tiger Claw boost), then use Tornado Throw (Setting Sun Strike), and I throw the target 5ft to an adjacent hex Causing 2d6 damage. I use improved trip to get an offhand attack. This would activate the rend ability of my active boost. If I am reading Tornado Throw correctly, I can then tumble 10ft past the target I just threw, and throw them again repeating the entire off-hand, rend cycle. I do this four times maximizing the rend damage to 8 hits for 20d6 extra damage, and move on to another target within 10 feet.

Tornado Throw doubles my movement, so lets say I have augmented my base movement to 100ft. Am I correct in assuming that so long as conveniently spaced targets are available I can repeat this throw, off-hand, rend cycle 20 times?

[Darrin]

What I am wondering... Would the Mighty Throw Touch attack (Unarmed Attack) count as "hitting" the foe for the purpose of two weapon rend? The thought is I throw them to an adjacent square. They take damage from the throw and it is resolved as a trip so I get a free attack. I use off hand weapon for the free attack. Have I now hit them with both weapons allowing me to rend? Two-weapon rend doesn't say anything about damaging with both weapons.

I'm actually inclined to say "No", but you'll want to ask your DM to clarify.

In order for a weapon to be considered an "offhand" attack, you need to be using the TWF rules. In order to use the TWF rules, you need to make a full-round attack and apply the appropriate TWF penalties. If you use a standard-action strike (Mighty Throw), then you're not using TWF, and when you get a free attack with your shortsword, you're not actually making an offhand attack (there is no offhand penalty).

As I said, though, you want to check with the DM. The text for Two Weapon Rend says, "If you successfully hit an opponent with both of the weapons you wield". This could be interpreted several ways, and it doesn't explicitly say that you *must* be attacking with the TWF rules (although it's heavily implied).

Example: If you have BAB +6, you get two iterative attacks, and by RAW you could attack with your unarmed strike for +6 and then attack with your shortsword for +1 without using TWF rules. If your DM allows Rend to happen in this case, then you've got a stronger argument that Mighty Throw + Improved Trip = Rend. The only sticking point here is a melee touch attack and an unarmed strike are not necessarily the same thing, but given how confusing the unarmed strike rules are, it wouldn't surprise me if the DM handwaved this away.

If you interpret the text as "Any time you hit an opponent with two different weapons that WOULD be your primary and offhand weapon IF you were attacking with TWF rules", then you should be good to Rend there as well. Again, there's the issue that melee touch attack is not the same thing as an unarmed strike, but that may be more of a nitpick than a rule issue.

[Cawalski]

The only sticking point here is a melee touch attack and an unarmed strike are not necessarily the same thing.

Another question then to cloud the issue further. Lets remove the unarmed ambiguity. If I use a Flail to initiate a trip attempt, I still roll an unarmed touch attack, however I am using the flail not my hands. This implies that I have hit them with the flail. I suppose this could be argued the same way as an unarmed attack as the "hit" with the flail does not cause standard attack effects.

Not trying to force an unbalanced build, just looking for clarification on the innate ambiguity here. I hate to think that something described so much in RAW needs to be house ruled by a DM.

The overall concept here is a halfling that enters a giants space, throws him around, and moves through his occupied space to initiate other throws. That all seems clean and clear in RAW. I am looking for a way to really punish the target of this spinning halfling jujitsu attack. Rend seemed a logical option with the added attack from the offhand.