[PF] Whip orientated build

[NikitaDarkstar]

I need some help here. I want to build something rogue/fighter'ish (streetfighter sort of type, light-medium armor, more about "speed" than a traditional fighter, doesn't mind fighting dirty.) that uses whips in Pathfinder and I really have no idea how to go about it. I'd prefer if it was a human, but anything that isn't too odd is welcome. I want little to no magic involved in this and the starting level is 10.

So any suggestions? Some combination of fighter/rogue and/or some prestige class seems like the way to go, but I just don't know what. At first I was looking at the duelist, but since that needs piercing weapons that's an issue.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A 3 level dip into Lore Warden Figher gives you +3 BAB , 3d10 HD a fortitude bump, 3 bonus feat (one must be combat expertise; but IIRC it is a pre-requisite for all Improved Maneuver feats so it is a nice bonus) and +2 untyped bonus to you CMB and CMD and you still have decent skills (4+int)

[Waker]

Serpent Lash is useful, if you successfully trip or disarm someone using a whip, you can make another attempt against another adjacent target.
You'll obviously want the Whip Mastery Tree to make the whip a bit more versatile.
Aspis Agent seems like a decent PrC for a roguey-fighter type with a whip.

Can't really give any other suggestions right now. Never really used a whip with any character's yet.

[Acanous]

are you going for some kind of whip-trip build here? Or are you trying to deal damage? (Which whips are very bad at.)
Further, when you say no magic, are you talking about multiclassing, or are magic items ok?

[NikitaDarkstar]

Guys you're going way above my head right now. I have no idea how to even build for this in a basic way (as in what base class should I start with?!).

As for what I'm going for, decent'ish damage mainly, combat manouvers are a bonus but not a priority. I know whips aren't that amazing at it but I'm more interested in the flavor that the damage output (besides the base dice for many weapons isn't it's main source of damage, it's just the tiny variable at the end.).

Also if you have links or at least the book the stuff that isn't basic(/SRD) can be found in that'd be amazing. :)

PS: What I mean with no magic was that I'd prefer to avoid partial caster classes or dips into caster classes if at all avoidable since it wouldn't fit well with the character I have in mind or the setting. (It's not banned but magic is very rare... and it's very unlikely that a street-rat type of character would be able to do magic.)

[Waker]

Here is a suggested build. I'm not gonna bother with ability scores, gear and skill points, cause that's just the way I am.

Acrobat Rogue 3/Lore Warden Fighter 3/Aspis Agent 4
HP- 7D8 + 3D10 + Con
BAB +8
Fort +4, Refl +5, Will +3
Feats (8):Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, Serpent Lash, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery
Skill Points: 56 + Int
Rogue Talents (1-3):???

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/acrobat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/aspis-agent

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats
For a description of what each of those feats do, it's easier to just use the "Find" option in the browser to search for them.

[Lord_Gareth]

Important question: does the PF whip still deal less/no damage to armored targets? If so, you might want to ask your DM about back-porting a Whip-Dagger (Arms and Equipment Guide) instead.

[Waker]

Important question: does the PF whip still deal less/no damage to armored targets? If so, you might want to ask your DM about back-porting a Whip-Dagger (Arms and Equipment Guide) instead.

Yep, but the feat Whip Mastery removes that restriction, allows you to decide to deal lethal or non-lethal and makes it so you don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yep, but the feat Whip Mastery removes that restriction, allows you to decide to deal lethal or non-lethal and makes it so you don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

....It makes me sad that you now have to spend an entire feat (instead of gold) on fixing those problems.

[Waker]

....It makes me sad that you now have to spend an entire feat (instead of gold) on fixing those problems.

If it's any consolation there is another kind of whip called a scorpion whip, which is the PF equivalent apparently. Except it is 1d4 slashing damage as opposed to piercing.
Found that when I was first researching for this thread.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Here is a suggested build. I'm not gonna bother with ability scores, gear and skill points, cause that's just the way I am.

Acrobat Rogue 3/Lore Warden Fighter 3/Aspis Agent 4
HP- 7D8 + 3D10 + Con
BAB +8
Fort +4, Refl +5, Will +3
Feats (8):Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, Serpent Lash, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery
Skill Points: 56 + Int
Rogue Talents (1-3):???

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/acrobat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/aspis-agent

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats
For a description of what each of those feats do, it's easier to just use the "Find" option in the browser to search for them.

Exactly what I was looking for, thank you! :D

And the DM isn't impossible with changing stuff to work for the players but I need to have something to go on build wise to work with my concept and you guys gave me exactly that. Thanks a bunch, I knew someone would be able to help. :D

[StreamOfTheSky]

A whip build requires a lot of feats and levels and really isn't worth it. It also lures you into trying to build a dex-based tripper IME, which is just a *really* bad idea.


If you want to use a whip, though, first of all you need proficiency. Consider going into Bard a bit or as primary class to pick it up. Or be a Half-Elf and use Ancestral Arms variant racial feature in APG to get it.

There are two traits that will give you a +2 on trip maneuvers with the whip. One is Heirloom Weapon (it actually lets you pick which maneuver you get a +2 on), the other is specific to whip and spiked chain and the name eludes me at the moment.

Look at the Archaeologist Bard archetype. It's basically a roguish bard. You self-buff instead of inspiring the party, but can do so as a swift action (the rounds/day is awful, but is easily fixed with the Lingering Performance feat) and it's a luck bonus.

Your whip damage will be poor, so damage from other sources is useful, like fighter's weapon training and weapon specialization. You should probably do an Archaeologist Bard, Lore Warden Fighter, or multiclass of the two.

Also check out the Fury's Fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat) feat if you do have a good dex. I would not make a dex-based tripper, though. You can only trip up to one size larger than you, and enlarging yourself would hurt your modifier. Remember if you do make a dex-based tripper, you can trip with weapon attacks, so you only need Weapon Finesse. Do NOT waste a feat on the terribad Agile Maneuvers.

If you go mainly/all Fighter, consider the Pin Down feat at higher levels. Dazing Assault is also good. Both are best to combine w/ Combat Reflexes and long reach, and neither is available before level 11 and 12 (respectively) at the earliest.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow....serpent lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat) is awful! It's basically Curling Wave Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/stormwrack--87/curling-wave-strike--498/) but worse in every way.

Also, a Paizo blog (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom) updated the trip weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-trip) to let you use it for reposition and drag maneuvers. So the feat's option to reposition at a -4 penalty and only towards you is strictly worse than what you could already do. Granted, paizo changed that rule after the fact, but it just makes the feat seem even crappier.

Editor's Note: The trip special feature also allows you to add the weapon's enhancement bonus when using drag or reposition combat maneuvers, as shown below:

"There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons)."

[NikitaDarkstar]

Wow....serpent lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat) is awful! It's basically Curling Wave Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/stormwrack--87/curling-wave-strike--498/) but worse in every way.

Also, a Paizo blog (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom) updated the trip weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-trip) to let you use it for reposition and drag maneuvers. So the feat's option to reposition at a -4 penalty and only towards you is strictly worse than what you could already do. Granted, paizo changed that rule after the fact, but it just makes the feat seem even crappier.

Editor's Note: The trip special feature also allows you to add the weapon's enhancement bonus when using drag or reposition combat maneuvers, as shown below:

"There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons)."

Curling Wave Strike is a 3.5 feat however, which is NOT available, but thanks for the heads up on the rules change, I'll run it by my DM to make sure he's aware of it. I'll stick more towards the fighter/rogue combo however, while bard is a more obvious choice I also hate the class with a passion (can't put my finger on it, but same knee-jerk reaction as paladins give me) and spellcasting, even partial is less than ideal here.

Helf-elf is a good idea though, I had totally forgotten of the ancestral arms feature.


But all in all I do realize this is far from the most powerful character idea, (I seriously got an ECL 4 barbarian with better damage output) but if I can get it decently functional I'll be happy. :)

[Hunter Noventa]

If it's any consolation there is another kind of whip called a scorpion whip, which is the PF equivalent apparently. Except it is 1d4 slashing damage as opposed to piercing.
Found that when I was first researching for this thread.

It does however lack the reach a normal whip has.

[Lord_Gareth]

Wow....serpent lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat) is awful! It's basically Curling Wave Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/stormwrack--87/curling-wave-strike--498/) but worse in every way.

Paizo: "Everyone gets more feats! Just quietly ignore the bit where all the non-magical feats suck and you'll be just fine."