Is this as broken as I think it is? Craft Trinket [Feat]

['Able' Xanthis]

I'm looking over some of my books from Kingdoms of Kalamar, an old setting for 3.0, and in the Villain Design Handbook there is a feat called Craft Trinket. To wit.

Villain Design Handbook, pg 73

Benefit; You can create any trinket you meet the Prerequiste for. Crafting a Trinket takes one day. The base price for a trinket is 50gp times the spell level, with a minimum of 50gp. To craft a trinket you must pay 1/25th of it's base price in xp, and uses raw materials equal to gp half this base cost. Any trinket that has a costly material component or xp cost should have it's cost raised commensurately.

Does this mean I could create a Ring of Mage Hand (Cost; 900gp) for a around 75gp and 2xp. (Mage Hand= 0 level spell = 50gp = 2xp. Base cost is 50gp/2 = 25gp+Base Cost= 75gp)

If so this is a very good Craft, just using RAW.

[Chilingsworth]

What is the "Trinket" category of items? I'd imagine that the definition of said category would be in the same book, right?

[Flickerdart]

Kalamar is in general rubbish, and you should take everything from it with a grain of salt so large that it eclipses the sun and ushers in a new ice age.

[OracleofWuffing]

Kalamar is in general rubbish, and you should take everything from it with a grain of salt so large that it eclipses the sun and ushers in a new ice age.
:smallconfused: But don't we use salt to help melt ice? :smalltongue:

[molten_dragon]

What is the "Trinket" category of items? I'd imagine that the definition of said category would be in the same book, right?

This is my thought as well. I'm guessing that 'trinket' is a particular class of magic item, and doesn't mean the same as wondrous item as in your example.

[qwertyu63]

To answer Chilingsworth, they are defined on that very page, with examples on the very next page, actually.

They are meant to be small magic items, with equally small effects, so a DM can give them to the BBEG's minions without overpowering the PC's after they kill them. (Examples from page 74: Can breath an extra 2 rounds before drowning, Recover from non-lethal damage twice as fast, Speak a pre-chosen other language exclusively, +2 Handle Animal when dealing with otters)

You could make that ring, but it wouldn't be "Mage hand at will". It would be more like "You can slowly lift and move 1 pound of material for 2 total minutes each day" or something on that power level (Note: that example was just pulled out of nowhere, and may also be horrible).

[Flickerdart]

:smallconfused: But don't we use salt to help melt ice? :smalltongue:
If the grain of salt even enters the atmosphere, the resultant transfer of kinetic energy would knock the Earth out of orbit and send it hurtling into the black abyss of space, making the ice thing an even bigger problem than before.

['Able' Xanthis]

Here is the deffnition I found after diging

Villain Design Handbook; pg 73

Trinkets are minor magical items (Not including potions and scrolls) that villains often give their minions to reward loyal service. The cost of a trinket cannot exceed 1000gp and it may not involve use of greater than 3rd level spells. Creating a trinket requires use of the craft trinket feat.

I only ask because it exclusively says Not including potions and scrolls and the ring of mage hand was the first magic item that came to mind under 1000gp at the time.

I'm just asking if it is broken using only RAW. I understand KoK had holes in it, it freaking has Initiative a 1st level spell that says you win initiative flat out in it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just use Craft Wondrous Item, seriously!

[Spuddles]

Page 92 of the same book. Dark Light Wizard. It's an absolutely ridiculous prestige class, like Beholder Mage level of insanity.

['Able' Xanthis]

Just use Craft Wondrous Item, seriously!

Not as cheap. Period.

I really just wanted to know if one could get conventional magical items out of it as long as they were 1000gp or less by RAW. I usually GM, but I still play every now and again.


Page 92 of the same book. Dark Light Wizard. It's an absolutely ridiculous prestige class, like Beholder Mage level of insanity.

Yeah, it's out there alright.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh? Magic items have a set price? Does this give a discount on making a normal <1000 gp Wondrous Item? If so, where does it say that??

Lets say you want to make, ohh:

Universal Solvent
Quall's Feather Token - Tree
An Elixer of Hiding
Silversheen
Dust of Dryness
a Grey Bag of Tricks
a Hand of the Mage
Bracers of Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
a 1st level Pearl of Power

those are all Wondrous Items under or equal to 1000 gp. Does this give some sort of discount or a better way to make them than Craft Wondrous Item itself?

[Spuddles]

Uh? Magic items have a set price? Does this give a discount on making a normal <1000 gp Wondrous Item? If so, where does it say that??

Read the OP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Trinkets are one use items of spells, right?

Like stuff made with Craft Skull Talisman, (some versions of) Craft Wondrous Items, Inscribe Rune, Imbue Gem, etc.?

['Able' Xanthis]

Trinkets are one use items of spells, right?
Like Potions, some Wondrous items, Magical Gems, some types of Runes, etc.?

Nope, as the examples are all permanent effects that were dulled down for RAI. Examples from page 74: Can breath an extra 2 rounds before drowning, Recover from non-lethal damage twice as fast, Speak a pre-chosen other language exclusively, +2 Handle Animal when dealing with otters are all things that stay in affect as long as you wear the item. Another example Item increases your speed by 5" which at level one would be sweet for only fifty gold.

RAI states that these are weak items, but RAW states VERY differently.

Universal Solvent
Quall's Feather Token - Tree
An Elixer of Hiding
Silversheen
Dust of Dryness
a Grey Bag of Tricks
a Hand of the Mage
Bracers of Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
a 1st level Pearl of Power

All of theses can be made with RAW Craft Trinket, I think. This basically allows you to create a Magical Item that uses 3rd level or less spells for a huge discount and an invaluable xp discount. Definitely a first level artificers best friend for shelling out Items using Craft Points.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think this is broken.

As in, it doesn't do what it says it does...

As best as I can figure out, it is for, 'figure out some very minor, continuous effect with your gm, and what spell under level 3 that you would use to make such an item with that very minor effect, generally far less powerful than a continuous version of the spell. Then you can use this feat to make the item, at this cost.'

That... is really not that well written, you know?

I already write up all of the EXISTING ways (other than craft wondrous item) of making items that cast arbitrary spells, in my handbook here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

['Able' Xanthis]

I think this is broken.

As in, it doesn't do what it says it does...

As best as I can figure out, it is for, 'figure out some very minor, continuous effect with your gm, and what spell under level 3 that you would use to make such an item with that very minor effect, generally far less powerful than a continuous version of the spell. Then you can use this feat to make the item, at this cost.'

That... is really not that well written, you know?

I already write up all of the EXISTING ways (other than craft wondrous item) of making items that cast arbitrary spells, in my handbook here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

First, I would like to thank you for the link, it is informative, and I think I might try playing a game where I can get my hands on enough materials to make a flying boat now, but could you give a shoat out to me about his in that handy dandy guide there about this completely sideways feat.

That is what I was asking about. You see the discrepancy is when you drag the RAW out of all the fluff you get an incredible feat. RAI would have it be just another Non-value fluff feat, but RAW it is insanely better, if a little limited by the spell cap.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is, I don't think there is any metric to say what a Trinket actually does!

Like, take Inscribe Rune from PGtF, and Attune Gem from MoF. Those specifically say that you can make one use spells (like potions, but with different restrictions) in gems or runes. Or Drow House Insignia from Drow of the Underdark. Those are 1/day items which casts a spell. Or Wondrous Items, which can cast a spell via a formula -- either once, 1/day, a few times day, 1/round, or have it be continuously active. That is explicit in what they can do. Trinkets... really aren't explicit in what they can do.

['Able' Xanthis]

The problem is, I don't think there is any metric to say what a Trinket does!

Creates a Magical Item that uses 3rd or lower spells. That is what I have gathered.

I think the original idea was to create an item that wasn't much, but a combination of poor wording and non-definable item type is making this one feat a lot stronger than it was Intended.

Rules As Written say that as long as the market price is bellow 1000gp and only use 3rd or lower spells you can create it with the Create Trinket feat. This has to be the worst Rules Lawyering I've done in years.

In other words it just has to be a Magical Item with the above specs.

Crate Trinket; Rules as Written.
Trinkets are minor magical items (Not including potions and scrolls) that villains often give their minions to reward loyal service. The cost of a trinket cannot exceed 1000gp and it may not involve use of greater than 3rd level spells. Creating a trinket requires use of the craft trinket feat.

Benefit; You can create any trinket you meet the Prerequiste for. Crafting a Trinket takes one day. The base price for a trinket is 50gp times the spell level, with a minimum of 50gp. To craft a trinket you must pay 1/25th of it's base price in xp, and uses raw materials equal to gp half this base cost. Any trinket that has a costly material component or xp cost should have it's cost raised commensurately.

[Spuddles]

The problem is, I don't think there is any metric to say what a Trinket actually does!

Like, take Inscribe Rune from PGtF, and Attune Gem from MoF. Those specifically say that you can make one use spells (like potions, but with different restrictions) in gems or runes. Or Drow House Insignia from Drow of the Underdark. Those are 1/day items which casts a spell. Or Wondrous Items, which can cast a spell via a formula -- either once, 1/day, a few times day, 1/round, or have it be continuously active. That is explicit in what they can do. Trinkets... really aren't explicit in what they can do.

They really don't.

Make a spellbook with hardness 10, break DC 30, and 90 HP? Craft trinket for 100gp and the shield spell.

How did they even come up with that?

Oh wait, it's kingdoms of kalamar, which on closer inspection reveals that it's closer to your DM's cheeto stained campaign notes than a product you'd want to spend money on.

['Able' Xanthis]

They really don't.

Make a spellbook with hardness 10, break DC 30, and 90 HP? Craft trinket for 100gp and the shield spell.

How did they even come up with that?

Oh wait, it's kingdoms of kalamar, which on closer inspection reveals that it's closer to your DM's cheeto stained campaign notes than a product you'd want to spend money on.

Glad I didn't buy it then. An older DM gave me his copies as Christmas gift.:smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

If the grain of salt even enters the atmosphere, the resultant transfer of kinetic energy would knock the Earth out of orbit and send it hurtling into the black abyss of space, making the ice thing an even bigger problem than before.

Flickerdark ladies and gentlemen. He exist to inspire us for hilarious kickers for our campaigns :smalltongue:

['Able' Xanthis]

Found the flaw that stops this for a moment. You've got to have the prerequisites of the item, but Artificers still ignore that rule.

[TheifofZ]

I think part of the problem is that you're looking to mesh the 3.5 rules and 3.0 rules.
Given the description of the feat, it doesn't sound like you can make anything except magical items that are described as a Trinket type item. Which, except for the possibility of errata, don't exist in 3.5. The items that were listed above fall under Wondrous Items, rather than Trinkets, and require Craft Wondrous Item to make. In the same vein that you can't make Wondrous Items with Craft Ring, or rings with Craft Wondrous Item, you couldn't make Wondrous Items with Craft Trinket.
If you want to bring that into a 3.5 game, look at the list of trinket items that the 3.0 books have, and rebalance them for 3.5 (Or talk to the DM about whipping up afew Trinket items, including base spell and all, of similar power to the Trinkets from 3.0)

Or, you know. Don't, but still use it. And watch as the DM suffers an apoplectic fit and kills your character on the spot once he realizes how ridiculous that is.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can probably make any trinket started out in a book, and no more.

[Flickerdart]

Or, you know. Don't, but still use it. And watch as the DM suffers an apoplectic fit and kills your character on the spot once he realizes how ridiculous that is.
I'm reasonably certain that either the entire Villain Design Handbook, or almost every individual part of it, explicitly states that it's only intended to be used by DMs for NPCs. So it's not really a player toy to start with.