Playing as a faerie dragon?

[silverwolfer]

So a player of mine wants to play 10 levels gesalt as a faerie dragon 10/ druid 10

I am somewhat having a headache on figuring out, if they get all the feats that are listed as the creature, and if they get to choose 32 point build ONTOP of the stats already listed, or have to make a 32 player build all by itself ignoring the creatures stats. (I really don't know how to reverse engineer the stats of the creature to a general +2 this and -2 that sort of thing.


I am using the creature as listed at Draconomicon pg 158 , any advice would be greatly appreciated, so I can make my players dreams of playing a dragon something she can enjoy yet be fair by the rules.

[Scarlet-Devil]

It seems that faerie dragons were fully intended to be playable as a race, in a high enough level game. They have 8 racial hit dice and a +2 level adjustment. Their ability score modifiers are, in order: +2, +8, +2, +4, +6, +6. The player would choose their stats normally with the 32 points, then apply all those racial bonuses.

The player would choose whatever feats they wanted, 4 in all because of the gestalt druid levels (1,3,6,9); the creature in the book is an average specimen, but the character is its own individual, so the player chooses their own feats and skills, and rolls their own hit points.

[silverwolfer]

so they would only get 1,3,6,9 they would not get the fly by attack and improved int, on top of the 1,3,6,9?

[Scarlet-Devil]

No. Since they aren't bonus feats, the player would have to choose those feats herself. Of course there's no reason she couldn't just keep the default faerie dragon feats, plus one more for ninth level.

[VGLordR2]

To be completely clear, it is possible to receive some of the feats in a creature's entry. If you see a superscript "B" next to a feat, then it is a bonus feat, and you gain that feat yourself.

[silverwolfer]

Yep no B on those feats, So 4 feats for her, plus her druid levels and animal companion that is probably bigger then she will be. Anything I should know about wildshape , or does it function just like normal as if she was human.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wildshape will function normally here. Still based off her Druid levels, same forms are available at the same levels. Same changes take place. Polymorph, however, will be different since her type isn't Humanoid.

[silverwolfer]

Okay I think the only question I have left is Do skills from racial HD's follow the same rules as normal gesalt as in you only get to pick one side with how many skill points you spend per level, or do you group them together as a inherited or racial to stack on top of the druid bit.

[Uncle Pine]

Racial skills and racial HD follow the same rules as normal gestalt do. Dragons have 6+Int skill points and their class-skills are listed in the Monster Manual. However, if I remember correctly, every skill in which the "base" monster (read: the monster as it is presented in the book) has ranks is considered class-skill. Dragons have d12 HD and this makes them good in gestalt.
Remember that the gestalt also gets the breath weapons and the spell-like abilities.

As a sidenote: how do you intend to rule the fact that druids have to be Neutral and faerie dragons are "Always Caotic Good"? :smallconfused:

EDIT: I hope your player won't roll a renegade faerie dragon whose animal companion is a panther.

[silverwolfer]

Yeah alignment isn't that huge deal , although the breath weapon a DC 15 that does no damage, is not that big a deal at our level I think. Thank you lots for everyones help.

[Yuki Akuma]

Make sure to adjust the save DC based on the character's ability scores - most save DCs will say what ability they're based on.

[Snowbluff]

Make sure to adjust the save DC based on the character's ability scores - most save DCs will say what ability they're based on.

Which is 10+1/2HD+Con Mod in this case.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Which is 10+1/2HD+Con Mod in this case.

Specifically racial hit dice though. The total DC will be 14+Con Mod.

[Snowbluff]

Specifically racial hit dice though. The total DC will be 14+Con Mod.

Is there a clause in the Draconomicon that disagrees with me? It's not RHD unless specified.

[Urpriest]

Much of this has been answered already, but you really ought to read my Monster Handbook, link in sig. It would have answered pretty much every question you asked in this thread.

Edit:

Is there a clause in the Draconomicon that disagrees with me? It's not RHD unless specified.
False, in practice. I can't think of a single example class-leveled monster that works like that, they all use only RHD for racial special abilities, except in the case of templates.

[Snowbluff]

Much of this has been answered already, but you really ought to read my Monster Handbook, link in sig. It would have answered pretty much every question you asked in this thread.

Edit:

False, in practice. I can't think of a single example class-leveled monster that works like that, they all use only RHD for racial special abilities, except in the case of templates.

I have my Rules Compendium open right in front of me. It doesn't agree.

Rules Compendium pages 118 and 119.

[Urpriest]

I have my Rules Compendium open right in front of me. It doesn't agree.

Rules Compendium pages 118 and 119.

They both say "creature's HD". In this context, that means the HD they get as a creature, not any from class levels. Again, every single example creature works this way: look at the Aboleth Mage.

If you insist on an example from after the Rules Compendium was published (unnecessary since Rules Compendium doesn't change the wording meaningfully), you need to look at Elder Evils, since it's the only book published after the Rules Compendium that includes monsters (unless the Dungeon Survival Guide has some). Unfortunately, Elder Evils is inconsistent: Gorguth has a DC 24 Death Gaze, which is only consistent with your ruling, but Axihuatl's DC 9 DC to remove Energy Drain is just flat-out nonsensical, though if it's DC 19 it's consistent with my ruling. Seghulerak also isn't consistent with either interpretation, but neither is the Abomination itself, and the DC given for Seghulerak is consistent with the DC increasing due to a Cha increase and not due to an HD increase.

[Snowbluff]

They both say "creature's HD". In this context, that means the HD they get as a creature, not any from class levels. Again, every single example creature works this way: look at the Aboleth Mage.

If you insist on an example from after the Rules Compendium was published (unnecessary since Rules Compendium doesn't change the wording meaningfully), you need to look at Elder Evils, since it's the only book published after the Rules Compendium that includes monsters (unless the Dungeon Survival Guide has some). Unfortunately, Elder Evils is inconsistent: Gorguth has a DC 24 Death Gaze, which is only consistent with your ruling, but Axihuatl's DC 9 DC to remove Energy Drain is just flat-out nonsensical, though if it's DC 19 it's consistent with my ruling. Seghulerak also isn't consistent with either interpretation, but neither is the Abomination itself, and the DC given for Seghulerak is consistent with the DC increasing due to a Cha increase and not due to an HD increase.

So, by your own example stat blocks are useless for a ruling. So I went to the WotC glossary.


Hit Die

In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.


creature

A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.


character

A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting. The words "character" and "creature" are often used synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as opposed to an object).

So, Creature's HD can readily mean Character's HD, since being a creature without class levels is the same as being a creature with class levels.

I still don't agree.

[Scarlet-Devil]

From the SRD:
Breath Weapon (Su): A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy.

Such breath weapons allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 breathing creature’s racial HD + breathing creature’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted. Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save.

Also see Breath Weapon under Special Abilities.

[Urpriest]

From the SRD:
snip

This is repeated in the Rules Compendium entry for Breath Weapons, so it looks like specific beats general in this case.

In general, while Elder Evils has one inconsistency in the form of Gorguth, past books have been quite consistent, and I can't think of another book that lets class levels advance racial special abilities. It's analogous to the principle that when level is mentioned in a class description it defaults to class level.

[Snowbluff]

This is repeated in the Rules Compendium entry for Breath Weapons, so it looks like specific beats general in this case.

There we go. Thank you.

@OP Don't play a dragon without casting levels. It sucks.


In general, while Elder Evils has one inconsistency in the form of Gorguth, past books have been quite consistent, and I can't think of another book that lets class levels advance racial special abilities. It's analogous to the principle that when level is mentioned in a class description it defaults to class level.

Like we said, it terribly wrong. I would agree with your ruling if there was any distinction between a creatures HD or its character HD.