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Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 12:41 AM
Not quite sure where to put this.

I'm used to playing D&D 4.0 and just got started on 3.5, but I realized what I really wanted to play was a game where every character had control over a certain elemental power. Then I realized, 'hey, I don't just want to PLAY a game that does that, I want to MAKE one!'

So here I am, seeking so help. I've already picked out the elements I want to use (Fire [lots 'o damage], Water [trickery {one spell forces the foe to spend 1 extra MP every spell}], Nature [battlefield control, little bit of tanking], Wind [movement], Life [healing and tanking], and Death [does nearly direct damage but with a small personal HP loss]) and I have a small spell list formulated. Players will have a Daily Mana limit, like 3.5e.

Every level, you gain "Magic Essence" - points that you assign to various spells to power them up. Spells would be obtained D&D 4e style, where you have a choice of certain spells at certain levels. The problem is that I'm not quite sure how to keep the "randomness" of the dice still in play. I'm trying my hardest not to copy D&D, but I'm running short on ideas. What do you guys suggest?

On a second note, I could use spell ideas as well, so what would you like to do if you had any of the above elements under your control?

Grinner
2013-01-03, 01:48 AM
New designers are usually first advised to read different systems to see how they handle things differently. In your case, I can highly recommend this since you've played only D&D and therefore know only D&D. Because you know only D&D, you only know how D&D does things.

Recommended reading:

Free FATE (http://www.ukroleplayers.com/downloads/free-fate/)
Wushu (http://files.pcode.nl/temp/wushuopen_final.pdf)
WaRP (http://www.atlas-games.com/warp/)
GURPS (www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)


Next, you need to consider what system you'll use. Will you design the system yourself, or use a pre-existing one? A pre-existing one would save you a ton of time, but it may not conform to your vision completely or fulfill it elegantly.

In fact, before you even begin considering systems and game mechanics, you should figure out exactly what the game is about. What sort of atmosphere should the game have? What can the players do? Remember that the rules define the player's experience, and remember to design the rules accordingly.

Finally, the Playground's friendly Homebrew forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15) may be more able to help you.

TuggyNE
2013-01-03, 02:31 AM
One more thing, in addition to Grinner's excellent advice: you should probably read up on D&D heartbreakers (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/).

Narren
2013-01-03, 03:00 AM
New designers are usually first advised to read different systems to see how they handle things differently. In your case, I can highly recommend this since you've played only D&D and therefore know only D&D. Because you know only D&D, you only know how D&D does things.

Recommended reading:

Free FATE (http://www.ukroleplayers.com/downloads/free-fate/)
Wushu (http://files.pcode.nl/temp/wushuopen_final.pdf)
WaRP (http://www.atlas-games.com/warp/)
GURPS (www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)


Next, you need to consider what system you'll use. Will you design the system yourself, or use a pre-existing one? A pre-existing one would save you a ton of time, but it may not conform to your vision completely or fulfill it elegantly.

In fact, before you even begin considering systems and game mechanics, you should figure out exactly what the game is about. What sort of atmosphere should the game have? What can the players do? Remember that the rules define the player's experience, and remember to design the rules accordingly.

Finally, the Playground's friendly Homebrew forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15) may be more able to help you.


In addition to reading these different game systems, I highly suggest you play them too. There have been several systems that I thought I knew, but when I actually played them I learned the different nuances that don't come from study alone.

prufock
2013-01-03, 09:52 AM
The main question I could ask is "what do you want the system to do that other systems don't already do?" This will tell you why you want to create a new system. If you don't have a good reason for this, a new system may not be necessary.

D&D 3.5 has a spell point variant and plenty of elemental spells. Mutants and Masterminds 3e can be adapted easily to give powers a daily limit.

nedz
2013-01-03, 10:02 AM
One more thing, in addition to Grinner's excellent advice: you should probably read up on D&D heartbreakers (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/).

this basically, also most of the rest of the stuff on the Forge site is worth a read — though the game style thing is a bit controversial.

I started writing one myself once, a long time ago. It's a lot of work, and then a lot more work still, in fixing the issues which will turn up in play testing, before you (may) have a viable game. I never got into bringing a game to market, but that also involves quite a lot of hard work.

Maybe this isn't what you want ?
Maybe you like 3.5 already ?
Are you aware that 3.5 has something like 30 magic systems ? There's almost certainly one that will do, or can be made to do, exactly what you are looking for.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 03:56 PM
Holy crap! I didn't expect so much good advice so quickly! Grinner, thanks for your suggestions, I'll definitely give them a read.

Prufock, my system's based more on spell stacking and spellblending tactics between players (seeing how players can only weild a single element) while still keeping the same "I can kinda survive on my own" motif. Example: A water player has the spell "Dehydration", which causes the target to spend one extra MP on every spell, While a Death player has a spell "Frailty" that causes 1d4 Necrotic damage to the target any time they spend more than one MP on a single spell.

While both spells are great in their own rite, COMBINING them produces an even better result.

Jay R
2013-01-03, 04:17 PM
I've already picked out the elements I want to use (Fire [lots 'o damage], Water [trickery {one spell forces the foe to spend 1 extra MP every spell}], Nature [battlefield control, little bit of tanking], Wind [movement], Life [healing and tanking], and Death [does nearly direct damage but with a small personal HP loss]) and I have a small spell list formulated.

I urge you to either use the elements (earth, air, fire, water) or to call them something other than elements. Natures, Archetypes, Fields, whatever. In a medieval context, the word "element" has a clear meaning.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-03, 05:40 PM
Prufock, my system's based more on spell stacking and spellblending tactics between players (seeing how players can only weild a single element) while still keeping the same "I can kinda survive on my own" motif. Example: A water player has the spell "Dehydration", which causes the target to spend one extra MP on every spell, While a Death player has a spell "Frailty" that causes 1d4 Necrotic damage to the target any time they spend more than one MP on a single spell.

Alright. Now step back. Deep breath.

You're putting the cart before the horse here. Unless magic is the fundamental part of your system, you need to hash out the basic mechanics and basic intent first.

Why should people play your system? GURPS is great for people who like fiddly bits and details, as well as a generic system. FATE is for people who want some fast-and-loose mechanics to go with their RP-based storytelling. World of Darkness is for those who like gritty, oppressive world, while D&D is for those who basically want to play at fantasy heroes. So why pick your system? What in it is supposed to grab players, and what sort of games do you intend to see run?

Secondly, what are the mechanics, and how do they fit your design goals? How does conflict resolution work, how are characters damaged (if they're damaged), and how do they die? How do you manage skills and similar things?

Figure that stuff out first, and then add in spell systems and interactions. Don't ignore them (as you need to make sure you have base mechanics you can works the spells into), but don't focus on them until you have a core system idea and core game feel in place.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 06:46 PM
Djinn, you just blew my mind. And gave me some great ideas. Some of the spells I have (okay, most) were originally designed for a card-based strategy game. What if I kept those same mechanics? So as you level, you build a deck, and the deck is your attacks in-game along with still having your usual weapons and skills? Kind of like Kamen Rider. I have a back story for it and everything. The idea's not fully fledged yet, seeing as how I just stripped down all of my progress to restart, but what do you think?

Thrawn4
2013-01-03, 06:52 PM
Alright. Now step back. [...]you need to hash out the basic mechanics and basic intent first.


I disagree. While it is a common approach to start the way you describe it, this does not always work. It certainly does not work for me all the time. Worldbuilding is very complex, and if someone has a few good ideas there is no reason why one should not start with these. A basic intent is very important, but it changes occasionally when you encounter better ideas.

kyoryu
2013-01-03, 06:54 PM
Worry about mechanics second, decisions first.

What is your game *about*? What decisions do the players make? What do you want the pros and cons of those decisions to be?

And I fully second the advice to play, or at bare minimum read, lots of different systems first.

1) You'll get a broader depth of ideas to steal borrow.
2) You might find something that can actually run your system out-of-the-box.

Thrawn4
2013-01-03, 06:58 PM
Some of the spells I have (okay, most) were originally designed for a card-based strategy game. What if I kept those same mechanics?
If you don't mind my two copper pieces: I would say that all mechanics that support the atmosphere/game that you want to create are perfectly fine.

It sounds like your magic system is going to be very complex and interesting. I take it that magic is going to be a major thing? Just asking, because if it is not it might be boring for fighters to "just roll once" whereas the mages have an entire game.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-03, 07:45 PM
I disagree. While it is a common approach to start the way you describe it, this does not always work. It certainly does not work for me all the time. Worldbuilding is very complex, and if someone has a few good ideas there is no reason why one should not start with these. A basic intent is very important, but it changes occasionally when you encounter better ideas.

I'm not suggesting Worldbuilding: just general theme. The mechanics and feel of an Action-RPG will differ greatly from one that intends to capture the intrigues of courtly mystery. Those will differ greatly from one that intends to be generic.

Of course your intent can always change: that's part of the creation process. But starting with individual mechanics for a sub-system of an uncreated system is a good way to end up with something that doesn't mesh well at all.

Exceptions exist, but, especially for someone's first RPG system undertaking, I think my proposal is a good way to at least think about approaching it.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 07:49 PM
It sounds like your magic system is going to be very complex and interesting. I take it that magic is going to be a major thing? Just asking, because if it is not it might be boring for fighters to "just roll once" whereas the mages have an entire game.

I guess I forgot to state that the game is magic-centric lol. Every class can have magic, but each class has different personal benefits (like rogues getting to do more within their allotted turns and knights getting more HP). Your class moreso determines what you can do out of battle (including your feats) as well as jumpstarting your role in battle, while the spells you put in your deck determine what you can actually do.

Like, let's say I'm a knight. I'm already better suited as a tank role than any other class, as well as being the strongest out of battle. But What KIND of tank am I? I could build my spellbook with Life, so I have hefty defense and healing capabilities; I could choose Nature/Earth and control the field of play; I could be unconventional and choose Death, and use my larger-than-average HP to cast more spells without worry of dying; or I could altogether break class and choose fire, letting me stay on the front lines and deal large amounts of damage.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-03, 08:01 PM
Djinn, you just blew my mind. And gave me some great ideas. Some of the spells I have (okay, most) were originally designed for a card-based strategy game. What if I kept those same mechanics? So as you level, you build a deck, and the deck is your attacks in-game along with still having your usual weapons and skills? Kind of like Kamen Rider. I have a back story for it and everything. The idea's not fully fledged yet, seeing as how I just stripped down all of my progress to restart, but what do you think?

It's an interesting concept, although turning it into an RPG might be a challenge, due to the inherent randomness in a card-based system.

I only know of one other system that uses deck-building as part of a table-top RPG mechanic, and that's Thornwatch, by the guys at Penny Arcade. Take a look at this article (http://penny-arcade.com/2012/09/10/c4rd-4ri0rz-working-title) and search the web for more information on the game: maybe you can get some inspiration out of it.

Thrawn4
2013-01-03, 08:28 PM
It's an interesting concept, although turning it into an RPG might be a challenge, due to the inherent randomness in a card-based system.
That's actually a good point. What is the in-game explanation of the randomness? The only thing that comes to my mind would be some streams or energy fields of magic that people tap into and which are difficult to control, thereby allowing some direction but not direct control.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 08:39 PM
That's actually a good point. What is the in-game explanation of the randomness? The only thing that comes to my mind would be some streams or energy fields of magic that people tap into and which are difficult to control, thereby allowing some direction but not direct control.

The explanation would be that the player characters actually collect these cards, similar to the Yu-Gi-OH TV show. Basically, Magic was so overused back in the day, that the gods felt that man had begun to think of themselves as deity. So the gods god withdrew inherent magic from man and instead, encased in in writings, or "Tomes". The world has become more mechanical (like a post renaissance, pre-industrial Final Fantasy look), and these Tomes have been spread throughout the world. Basically, it was an attempt by the gods to keep man from being too powerful by restricting their magic.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 08:52 PM
Let me take a minute to point out how the cards would work:

Everybody has a hotbar of 5 cards active at all times. These cards can be used at any time, and remain on the hotbar when used. The next card (know as the standby card) would be revealed. On any of their turns, the player may switch out a card on their hotbar for their standby card (once per turn as a free action, the rest costing action points), discarding the replaced card (the standby card must be played before it can be discarded). At the end of each battle, all discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck. Even outside of battle, your hotbar remains (although you may search your deck for a specific card to place on your hotbar as though your character is searching their spellbook for a specific spell). When you start a battle, the cards on your hotbar remain, but your deck is shuffled.

TheThan
2013-01-03, 09:29 PM
Gamma World also uses cards and decks. The randomness in that game is built into the rather chaotic world in which the pcs inhabit, so it fits.
It also looks like the OP needs good grounding in system types before he decides on a system type to use. There’s three basic types of RPG systems out there, there’s Class and level systems, skill (or point if you prefer) based systems

RPG system theory 101 (warning long winded)

Class and level systems.

Class systems such as DnD are designed to allow players to pick up a game and start playing fairly quickly. In a class system, each player chooses a class, this class defines exactly what that character can and can’t do. For instance, in dnd, a fighter is good at fighting, while a wizard is good at casting spells.
Being shoehorned into a class gives the players a solid framework to “build” his character around; it limits your choices and makes several of them for you. However you end up with a character that should be strong in doing very few things, your character is focused into a predetermined archetype.

Unfortunately, players can’t always fit their character into a predetermined archetype. So we end up adding more and more classes into the game to cover everything. We also have multi-classing, gestalts and other variants that add to the complexity of the game, turning a fairly straightforward system into a complex one that adds greater versatility.

Level systems are designed to give the DM an idea of just how powerful the party has become. Granted these are usually a ballpark figure. For example, in dnd, a 4th level monster is supposed to be a match for a 4th level party. Is it really? That depends on the party in question as some parties are far stronger or weaker than their level would suggest.

Level systems are also designed to allow the pcs to grow as they level. Basically they gain power as they gain experience. There’s nothing innately wrong with this. But dnd 3.5’s primary design flaw is that some classes grow at faster rates (or at all) than others. It’s potentially a huge issue when player balance comes into play. After all, nobody wants a useless character, and nobody wants the other guy to take all the glory. This can also really throw off the level system as a power gauge. As a group of several spellcasters are going to be a greater threat (as they gain power faster) than a party of non casters (which don’t gain that much power). This is a potential problem for new and inexperienced Dms as players blow through what he thought was going to be a challenge in an instant.


Point systems

Point systems like GRUPS give the players a huge toolbox to build a character out of. No longer are they shoehorned into a class with a specific role. Now they can play whatever they want with little to no additions and variants to the rules. This is wonderful, but how does one go about doing that. The options available can be downright dizzying.

Players new to the system might have a hard time figuring out what to play and end up making something they are dissatisfied with. What players should do is approach the game with a character concept already firmly planted in his mind, then build the new PC to reflect that character.

Because of the vast array of options available to players, point systems tend to be very difficult to balance, and often combos can be made where two skills or features combine in an unexpected and powerful way. Or other times something too strong simply slips through the cracks. Usually you will have a cap of how much resources you have, and how much you can throw into a single skill or ability.

Because there is no easy system for balancing encounters, designing campaigns and encounters can be very difficult, especially for someone new to the system. If you make the encounter too strong, you risk an TPK. If you make it too weak, then they’ll blow through it without any effort. Designing fair encounters is something that boils down to practice.


Rules light systems

Rules light systems such as Spirit of the century, focus strongly on the plot of the story and less on the action of the story. Naturally there will be combat and sneaking and all those elements we enjoy in RPGs. But the rules for them are not nearly as complex, which makes them far easier to play, as you don’t have to worry about system mastery. Creating characters focus much less on what that character can do, and more on what that character is.

Rules light games tend to focus on a certain feel. For example Spirit of the Century is about old pulp adventure serials and other media that takes inspiration from them (Indiana Jones, Maltese falcon etc). Another game might focus on kung Fu cinema and allow for players to fly around fighting like you see in many old wuxia films.

There are many different game mechanics and systems out there, many more than I can go into here. The main thing is that they are not complex and tend to focus on an idea.




Now after reading that, you should decide what direction you take your system. before you begin building your system.

Thrawn4
2013-01-03, 09:32 PM
The explanation would be that the player characters actually collect these cards, similar to the Yu-Gi-OH TV show. Basically, Magic was so overused back in the day, that the gods felt that man had begun to think of themselves as deity. So the gods god withdrew inherent magic from man and instead, encased in in writings, or "Tomes". The world has become more mechanical (like a post renaissance, pre-industrial Final Fantasy look), and these Tomes have been spread throughout the world. Basically, it was an attempt by the gods to keep man from being too powerful by restricting their magic.
I like your idea, but I fail to see how that explaines the randomness.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 09:38 PM
I like your idea, but I fail to see how that explaines the randomness.

It's like throwing open a book and reading whatever page you're on. The hotbar is like keeping your fingers in pages.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-03, 09:39 PM
It's like throwing open a book and reading whatever page you're on. The hotbar is like keeping your fingers in pages.

But would you really rely on whatever you randomly opened to if your life was on the line? I know I'd take the extra second to find the thing that would really save me.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 10:03 PM
But would you really rely on whatever you randomly opened to if your life was on the line? I know I'd take the extra second to find the thing that would really save me.

And you can. Let's say you see something you want to kill, but you're not fighting it yet. You can actually set up your hotbar with whatever cards you want. The randomness only applies within a battle. You could conceivably fight without ever changing your hotbar, assuming that no one tampers with it (which Water loves to do) and you never need a different spell. The spells are set up as being balanced to themselves.

Fire is the best example of that: Yes, there's a fireball spell. But there's also a spell that shoots a WALL of fire. "Then who would use Fireball?" The wall of fire may sound better, but it takes up extra mana and an extra couple of turns to cool down, locking it to your hotbar and becoming dead weight. Do you take that penalty?

Thrawn4
2013-01-03, 10:24 PM
Shouldn't a bookmark take care of the randomness?


The wall of fire may sound better, but it takes up extra mana and an extra couple of turns to cool down, locking it to your hotbar and becoming dead weight. Do you take that penalty?

How does the dead weight work? Has the tome to recharge?

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 10:36 PM
How does the dead weight work? Has the tome to recharge?

Some spells have cooldowns that take several rounds (most aren't more than one or two right now, but I'm working on the balancing). One of the rules is that a card can't be traded during it's cooldown, so when you use one of those spells, that card just takes up space until its cooldown is over.

Vitruviansquid
2013-01-03, 11:20 PM
I'm gonna give you my input because I think I've travelled down this road before.

My first shot at creating an RPG culminated in a testing one-shot where I got my friends to create rudimentary characters and play out a battle against some NPCs. We all had a great time, everybody liked the game, and everyone was excited to see the game's next iteration.

But that next iteration never came because I realized I hadn't designed an RPG, but a tactical wargame. There are a bunch of interesting ways to fight in that game, and the fights are fast, furious, and interesting, but the game neither had a way to resolve basic RPG problems like picking a lock or doing a diplomatic negotiation, and there was no elegant, intuitive, or even sensible way to add a system for these things without it being a separate side-game used for non-combats.

And as far as I've read about your RPG, I think you'll hit the same problem - you might have designed an excellent card game, but is it an RPG? How does your spellcasting mechanic fit in with non-combat problem solving? Is it possible to do in your game the things one might expect to have to do when playing an RPG?

In any case, here's an idea for turning your card mechanic into an RPG. Each of your cards has two sides, one side with the name of a spell and another side with a number of keywords that imply a method of problem solving and a score - let's say for this example, 'negotiation-2,' 'thievery-3,' 'strength-4,' and 'willpower-5.' When the DM requires a solution to a non-combat problem, have all the players look at the keyword side of their standby card and propose a solution that utilizes the keyword.

For example, the players are locked in a prison cell and want to escape. The DM asks them for a keyword and number, and let's say one of the players gets strength-4. That player must them explain how he uses strength strength to solve the challenge, 'I try to bend the bars' and the number on the card determines whether or not he succeeds 'a strength 5 is needed to bend or break iron bars, you have failed.'

Now here's the kicker - the keyword side of each card corresponds to the spell. If the spell is aggressive in mood and mechanic (let's say, a direct damage Fireball), it might have an aggressive keyword, like Strength, Intimidate, Race, or whatever. If a spell is devious debuff, such as Frailty, it might have keywords like Stealth, Seduce, Acrobatics, or Outwit. The more difficult to use or high stakes a spell is, the higher the numbers on it tend to be or the more keywords the back has, thereby encouraging players to specialize and attempt to incorporate truly esoteric strategies into their decks... and the best part is, with keywords, you allow players to build their fluff in the same act as building their crunch. This could easily be tied to a theme tying in elemental magic with the concept of elemental humors affecting a person's aptitudes and behaviors.

Equilibrist
2013-01-03, 11:50 PM
In any case, here's an idea for turning your card mechanic into an RPG. Each of your cards has two sides, one side with the name of a spell and another side with a number of keywords that imply a method of problem solving and a score - let's say for this example, 'negotiation-2,' 'thievery-3,' 'strength-4,' and 'willpower-5.' When the DM requires a solution to a non-combat problem, have all the players look at the keyword side of their standby card and propose a solution that utilizes the keyword.

For example, the players are locked in a prison cell and want to escape. The DM asks them for a keyword and number, and let's say one of the players gets strength-4. That player must them explain how he uses strength strength to solve the challenge, 'I try to bend the bars' and the number on the card determines whether or not he succeeds 'a strength 5 is needed to bend or break iron bars, you have failed.'

Now here's the kicker - the keyword side of each card corresponds to the spell. If the spell is aggressive in mood and mechanic (let's say, a direct damage Fireball), it might have an aggressive keyword, like Strength, Intimidate, Race, or whatever. If a spell is devious debuff, such as Frailty, it might have keywords like Stealth, Seduce, Acrobatics, or Outwit. The more difficult to use or high stakes a spell is, the higher the numbers on it tend to be or the more keywords the back has, thereby encouraging players to specialize and attempt to incorporate truly esoteric strategies into their decks... and the best part is, with keywords, you allow players to build their fluff in the same act as building their crunch.

I really like the keyword idea. I'm gonna toy with that idea a little bit. One version of that that struck me right away was to flip every hotbar card and add the numbers together (as though making a D&D 3.5 character's stats) and those are now your character's points for any skill challenge they may face. The only problem I see is, how can you prevent a player from rummaging through their deck and just loading up their best cards?

On a related note, the only mana system I have in place is that each character has a certain Aptitude. Each card has an aptitude cost. To know how many cards you can have in a deck, you add up your cards' Aptitude costs. The total cannot exceed your character's Aptitude. Some cards that have to be in the deck are (element specific) mana cards. When the match starts, instead of having to draw these cards, you instantaneously gain that much mana as your total mana.

OR I could have Aptitude and Mana be character stats. What do you guys think would work best?

Carlos The Mage
2013-01-04, 01:24 AM
I made my own game sort of when i was like 13 i think or 12 i cant remember and it was pretty cool C: it was called medieval madness :D so through out the game you helped each other then in the end you had to track each other and kill each other, it was sooorta like d&d but i knew nothing about it then so the only relevance was just rolling dice, (we just used 20 sided dice for the damage) but yeah you should make your new game then post it i wanna play it C: :smallsmile:

erikun
2013-01-04, 04:43 PM
Since you seem to only be focusing on the magic system, I would recommend picking up some generic rules-light system (HeroQuest, Fate, Wushu) and trying to modify your planned system to fit with it. I mean, given such an unusual system for spellcasting, you will need to either fit it to an existing system or create your own from scratch. Doing this will both show you how other systems than D&D work, along with letting you figure out how to get different systems to work together.

You might want to try playing a session or two with the above generic systems, just to get a feel with how they work, before sticking your magic system in there as well. It will give you a good idea of how varied individual skills are, or how much damage things do, before trying to set such things with your magic system.

Grinner
2013-01-04, 04:58 PM
You might want to read this (http://www.zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/apprent.pdf).

It's the demo version of a game called Sorcerer. In Sorcerer, players are provided the means to engage in combat and demon summoning, while most other tasks are abstracted into a generic resolution mechanic. Like your game concept, it focuses almost exclusively on magic and does it very well.