Idiot Crusader.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, I've heard of this build a couple of times, and it's peeked my curiosity. Can someone show me a break down of it, explain how it works? Maybe even give me an idea of what the maneuver progression would look like?

Thanks!

[mattie_p]

I think this is a copy of the original build (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rfzg6Pnz09YJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D8218.0+idiot+crusader+3.5&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us).

The idiot crusader doesn't work like most people think it does. I posted an explanation on why Idiot Crusader doesn't work in the last Simple Q&A thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13987133&postcount=2006)I invite you to check it out. The entire build relies upon a custserv answer. (Also some discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14240514)).

White Raven Tactics does work on yourself, but you can't idiot it to refresh every round until very high level.

EDIT: actually the one I posted might work, but again, it comes online very late (I think it is level 18 when it actually works). It still relies upon some questionable rules readings (applying maneuvers readied/granted from Bloodclaw master to crusader, when you can only learn tiger claw (warblade/swordsage) maneuvers from the class).

[Metahuman1]

Oh well, back to the drawing board I guess.

Edit: See, I was hoping the build started coming online sooner then that.

[Bakkan]

It can come online somewhat sooner than that, I think I got it down to 9.

Warblade 5/Crusader 2/Master of Nine 2

Take the Extra Granted Maneuver feat. Apply the maneuvers readied from Mo9 to Crusader and the maneuvers known to Warblade. Then we have:

Crusader Maneuvers Known: 5 (never increased)
Cursader Maneuvers Readied: 5 (base) + 2 (Mo9) = 7
Crusader Maneuvers Granted: 2 (base) + 2 (Mo9) + 1 (Extra Granted Maneuver) = 5

So the crusader is granted all his known maneuvers every round.

Note that this build will only give you 2nd-level maneuvers known with your Crusader, which is not great. What I prefer to do is finish out Master of Nine, pick up three more maneuvers known (of any school I want) on the Crusader side and add three more maneuvers readied/granted as well. This gives you, at level 12, 8 maneuvers readied and granted every round, of which 5 are from Crusader schools and must be 2nd-level or lower, 2 are from any school and must be 4th-level or lower, and 1 is from any school and must be 5th-level or lower. Pushing things back just a little further, Warblade 6/Crusader 2/Master of Nine 5 allows you to get two more 5th-level maneuvers.

[mattie_p]

Note that this build will only give you 2nd-level maneuvers known with your Crusader, which is not great. What I prefer to do is finish out Master of Nine, pick up three more maneuvers known (of any school I want) on the Crusader side and add three more maneuvers readied/granted as well. This gives you, at level 12, 8 maneuvers readied and granted every round, of which 5 are from Crusader schools and must be 2nd-level or lower, 2 are from any school and must be 4th-level or lower, and 1 is from any school and must be 5th-level or lower. Pushing things back just a little further, Warblade 6/Crusader 2/Master of Nine 5 allows you to get two more 5th-level maneuvers.

Not that great is the understatement of the year. Unlimited 2nd level maneuvers at level 9? Go for it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Not that great is the understatement of the year. Unlimited 2nd level maneuvers at level 9? Go for it.

But when you one shot everything since you knock everything into negatives, period, why does it matter?

[mattie_p]

But when you one shot everything since you knock everything into negatives, period, why does it matter?

Which foes are you one-shotting with level 2 maneuvers at ECL 9? Please tell us which maneuvers and which enemies.

[Bakkan]

A more complex build would involve taking two levels of a ToB prestige class before starting Master of Nine. Master of Nine's insane requirements make that potentially trickly to do, but let's look at the options:

Bloodclaw Master: You can only get into this PrC one at level 7, which is only one level before Master of Nine, which is less than we want.

Bloodstorm Blade: The good news is, the skill prerequisite meshes with that for Master of Nine, but the feat does not. This can work but you'll likely need to take 2-4 levels of Fighter for all the feats you need. However, you maintain full BAB until you take Master of Nine.

Deepstone Sentinel: Can't enter until level 11.

Eternal Blade: Can't enter until level 11.

Jade Phoenix Mage: Can't enter until level 7 (see bloodclaw master)

Ruby Knight Vindicator: Requires 12 otherwise useless skill ranks and a dip into cleric. Two levels give another level of advancement to cleric spellcasting and Divine Recovery, which will be useless once our idiocy is complete except for refreshing our warblade/swordsage maneuvers. Overall, a little too costly in my opinion unlessyou're playing the long game and are looking forward to having seven levels in Windicator at level 17.

Shadow Sun Ninja: Skell requirement meshes with Master of Nine, Feat requirement meshes with Master of Nine, and both (plus the maneuver requirement) can be picked up with an Unarmed Swordsage dip at an appropriate time. The only downside is that it's Medium BAB. However, Swordsage 1 or 2/Shadow Sun Ninja 2 only loses 1 BAB from full (assuming fractional BAB).

So it seems to me that there is one good option, one OK option, and one only potentially good option. Let's look at the three options.

First: Shadow Sun Ninja
Unarmed Swordsage 1/Crusader 2/Swordsage +1/Fighter 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 2/Master of Nine 5
This build starts off as a particularly martial swordsage and only really starts looking like an Idiot Crusader in the later levels. At ECL 12, he has a Crusader Initiator Level of 10, with a total of 5 level 1 maneuvers and 3 level 5 maneuvers it can use every single round. He also has a Swordsage Initiator Level of 10.

Feats:
Level 1 - Adaptive Style, Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Level 3 - Blind-Fight
Level 5 - Improved Initiative
Level 6 - Dodge
Level 9 - Extra Granted Maneuver

Second: Bloodstorm Blade
Fighter 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Master of Nine 5

This build winds up with a Crusader Initiator Level of 10, with a total of 5 level 1 maneuvers and 3 level 5 maneuvers it can use every single round. He also has a Warblade Initiator Level of 10.

Feats:
Level 1 - Blind-Fight, Dodge (bonus), Point-Blank Shot (race or flaw)
Level 2 - Improved Initiative (bonus)
Level 3 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 6 - Adaptive Style
Level 9 - Extra Granted Maneuver

Note that this requires you to be a race with a bonus feat or to take a flaw.

Third: Ruby Knight Vindicator
Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 2/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Master of Nine 5

This build works best if you can have one or both of the Time and Darkness domains (for Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight respectively). In calculating the feats I'll only assume one is available.

Feats:
Level 1: Improved Initiative, Blind-Fight (one from domain)
Level 3: Adaptive Style
Level 4: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 6: Dodge
Level 9: Extra Granted Maneuver

Enjoy!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It absolutely does work. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060830a)

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?

A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.


For a practical application, I'd go with the following:
1. Unarmed Swordsage 1 (two stone dragon)
2. Warblade 1 (two white raven)
3. Crusader 1 (two devoted spirit, two total)
4. Crusader 2
5. Unarmed Swordsage 2
6. Warblade 2
7. Pious Templar 1
8. Master of Nine 1 (Moment of Perfect Mind)
9. Master of Nine 2 (Action Before Thought, Mind Over Body), Extra Granted Maneuver

From there you can finish the build with pretty much anything you want (Suel Arcanamach 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 9, otherwise something into Eternal Blade).

Get a (Item Familiar) Ring of Evasion with a continuous effect of the spell Undersong (SpC) added to it, so you can roll a Perform check instead of a Concentration check. Get max ranks in Perform: Weapon Drill (CW), your awesome swordsmanship enables you to completely avoid pretty much every effect in the game due to Evasion + Mettle + Quick Recovery (LoM).

Concept credit goes to Flickerdart. (www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-239757.html)

[mattie_p]

It absolutely does work. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060830a)

I'd love to know where the "Sage" got his ruling on that, particularly because ToB is silent on the topic, and The PHB is the primary source for rules on multiclassing. Please see page 60 of the PHB:


When a multiclass character advances a level in a current class, he or she gets all the standard benefits that a character normally receives for attaining that level in that class: more hit points, possible bonuses on attack rolls, Armor Class and saving throws (depending on the class and the new level), possible new class features (as defined by the class), possible new spells, and new skill points.

So the writer of that particular Sage answer chose to disregard multiclass rules that have existed since the beginning of 3.5 (over 3 years at that point!)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd love to know where the "Sage" got his ruling on that, particularly because ToB is silent on the topic, and The PHB is the primary source for rules on multiclassing. Please see page 60 of the PHB:

So the writer of that particular Sage answer chose to disregard multiclass rules that have existed since the beginning of 3.5 (over 3 years at that point!)

Maneuvers don't work like spells where you have to learn it separately for every class, and can prepare it multiple times. You either know a given maneuver, or you don't; you either have it readied, or you don't. That is the official answer on the subject, and the most relevant RAW available from any source. It does not directly contradict any other rules.

Maneuvers and stances work differently from any core class features, so ToB is the primary source on how they work over anything the PHB says. That ToB is silent on this issue does not make the PHB the default primary source, but a direct ruling from WotC in reference to the system introduced in ToB is just as primary source as ToB itself.

[mattie_p]

The ToB itself says the chapter on maneuvers (chapter 3) is analagous to the chapter on magic in the PHB (chapter 10). Please read my full explanation before you cite the sage, who decided on their own to contradict 3 years of RAW. Do note that the sage answer you cited did not make it into the FAQ, where another on the crusader did (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070404a).



Q: Dear Sage,
Could a crusader (Tome of Battle, p.8) choose to learn or ready fewer maneuvers than he or she would be entitled to?
--Joe & Sam

A: No.

You must learn and ready the full number of maneuvers entitled to you by your level.

Otherwise, you’d be able to cycle through your favorites faster, which defeats the purpose of the crusader’s unique recharge mechanic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The ToB itself says the chapter on maneuvers (chapter 3) is analagous to the chapter on magic in the PHB (chapter 10). Please read my full explanation before you cite the sage, who decided on their own to contradict 3 years of RAW. Do note that the sage answer you cited did not make it into the FAQ, where another on the crusader did (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070404a).

That's a question of whether or not he can choose to learn fewer maneuvers than he would be entitled to. If he's in a situation where he can't learn the full number of maneuvers, then that portion from the FAQ is irrelevant.

[mattie_p]

Which is why I cited the PHB, page 60, none of which has changed as of the ToB.

If the ToB had explicit rules on the subject, I'd love to hear them, but relying upon a sage's questionable reading is questionable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Sage's ruling is not questionable at all, fabricating ambiguity because it disagrees with your stance on the subject is very unbecoming.

Per your own quote:

When a multiclass character advances a level in a current class, he or she gets all the standard benefits that a character normally receives for attaining that level in that class: more hit points, possible bonuses on attack rolls, Armor Class and saving throws (depending on the class and the new level), possible new class features (as defined by the class), possible new spells, and new skill points.

This quote is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to gaining the first level of a new class.

[Gigas Breaker]

Nothing says that you can't add your maneuvers known to one class and maneuvers readied to another class when you gain a level in a martial adept prc. But, you should ask your dm. Personally, it doesn't feel like it should work this way.

[mattie_p]

Yes, but the current class does not become current until they gain a level in it. In other words as you follow the procedures for gaining a new level in a class (58-59, PHB, I believe) step 9 is:


9. Class Features: Check your character’s class description in this chapter for any new capabilities your character may receive. Many characters gain special attacks or new special powers as they advance in levels.

That is the current class. It has to be the current class. When you gain the level of crusader, you check your current class for class features. I'm afraid I don't see where you check other classes for your current class features, except as specified in the rules (for example, ToB allows multiclass initiators to add 1/2 their other class levels (except some prestige classes, which add full level) to their initiator level).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, but the current class does not become current until they gain a level in it. In other words as you follow the procedures for gaining a new level in a class (58-59, PHB, I believe) step 9 is:

That is the current class. It has to be the current class. When you gain the level of crusader, you check your current class for class features. I'm afraid I don't see where you check other classes for your current class features, except as specified in the rules (for example, ToB allows multiclass initiators to add 1/2 their other class levels (except some prestige classes, which add full level) to their initiator level).

With regards to a current class which is advancing a level rather than advancing a class in which you currently already have levels, it's still more ambiguous than the absolute answer given by my Sage quote, and it's still more general than the specific ruling.

Per the Class Features section of Multiclass Characters on PHB 59, it makes allowances for advancing class features that you may already have because they're granted by multiple classes, such as Turn Undead and Uncanny Dodge. Gaining the same maneuver from more than one class is not a "new special power" because you already have it, and it should be treated similarly to other redundant class features for which a specific exception is not made. A Monk 2/ Rogue 2 doesn't get Evasion twice, though he does get two redundant copies of it that don't stack. Similarly, any given character is specifically prohibited from learning the same maneuver more than once, so there's no choice in the matter.

We have the following three rules:
You gain all your class features when leveling up. (general)
You can't choose to gain fewer maneuvers known. (specific, choice)
You cannot learn the same maneuver multiple times. (specific, prohibition)

The specific prohibition overrides the general rule, every time. The specific can't-make-that-choice rule does not apply when the player has no choice but to abide by the specific prohibition.

[mattie_p]

Per the Class Features section of Multiclass Characters on PHB 59, it makes allowances for advancing class features that you may already have because they're granted by multiple classes, such as Turn Undead and Uncanny Dodge. All of what you have said here is in accordance with the rules, and I have no objection to it.


Gaining the same maneuver from more than one class is not a "new special power" because you already have it, and it should be treated similarly to other redundant class features for which a specific exception is not made.
There is no specific exemption to allow a multiclass sorcerer/wizard from learning the same spell twice, even if they already "know it." Because they know it in two different classes, they are separate abilities, and remain separate, barring specific rules as you cited above to combine the abilities. No such rules exist to that effect in ToB for initiators with regards to maneuvers, just as no rules exist to that effect in the PHB (or anywhere else) for wizards/sorcerers.


A Monk 2/ Rogue 2 doesn't get Evasion twice, though he does get two redundant copies of it that don't stack.
This part is fine.


Similarly, any given character is specifically prohibited from learning the same maneuver more than once, so there's no choice in the matter.

We have the following three rules:
You gain all your class features when leveling up. (general)
You can't choose to gain fewer maneuvers known. (specific, choice)
You cannot learn the same maneuver multiple times. (specific, prohibition)

The specific prohibition overrides the general rule, every time. The specific can't-make-that-choice rule does not apply when the player has no choice but to abide by the specific prohibition.
If the specific prohibition existed in a rulebook, I would agree with you. The third rule you cited is not found in the primary sourcebook for either initiators or for multiclassing, and according to WoTC itself, should not take precedence (primary source, errata, blah blah).

EDIT: Umm, also, no it doesn't? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060920a)


Q: If you are a multiclass martial adept (from Tome of Battle), a swordsage/warblade for example, do you have to keep your maneuvers known and maneuvers readied separate for each class?

A: If a character has multiple martial adept base classes, the maneuvers known and readied from each class are kept separate. Knowing a maneuver for one class does not mean you can ready it for the other, or vise versa.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If the specific prohibition existed in a rulebook, I would agree with you. The third rule you cited is not found in the primary sourcebook for either initiators or for multiclassing, and according to WoTC itself, should not take precedence (primary source, errata, blah blah).

EDIT: Umm, also, no it doesn't? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060920a)

"Knowing a maneuver for one class does not mean you can ready it for the other, or vise versa."

That only supports the Idiot Crusader, as it confirms that maneuvers learned via one class cannot be readied via another class. It says nothing about allowing you to learn the same maneuver via multiple different classes.

Furthermore, primary source doesn't even matter unless rules come into conflict, i.e. the table says the feat has one prerequisite, and the text says something completely different. When it comes to following the rules, I've already outlined how all of those three rules, when followed to the letter, results in the Idiot Crusader working.

[mattie_p]

And I agree it works, just at either a higher level than most people think, or with lower level maneuvers.

And while you agree with one portion of my sage cite - and quote it back at me - I can't help but notice that you seemingly ignore the portion that disagrees with you, namely: "the maneuvers known and readied from each class are kept separate." I'm afraid I don't know what that means, if it doesn't mean that they are kept separate (both known and readied).

The "rules" text you have cited via the sage (if they are rules) conflict with the PHB rules on multiclassing, in which case we refer to the rules introduced in the errata.

I will grant that the idiot crusader does work - just not as most people seem to think. The key behind it is not the sage ruling you cited (which contradicts multiple rules book texts I've quoted), but (ab)use of the maneuvers known/readied by prestige classes. If you want high level maneuvers, it doesn't come online until very very late (Level 18 in the BG build I linked - and agree works), or, if it comes online early, it is with low level maneuvers (as Bakkan showed in his first build. I need to look at his second suggestion, but I've been discussing this topic with you and have inadvertently missed his post).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They say you can never learn the same maneuver twice, or ready the same maneuver twice, then less than a month later say that your maneuvers known and readied are kept separate for each class. I don't think it conflicts at all. It's like taking levels in both Sorcerer and Favored Soul, your spells known and spells/day for each class are kept separate, but with an added limit that any spell that appears on both class spell lists can only be learned once, thus only added to your spells known of one class.

The rule that you can't learn the same maneuver twice does not conflict with the PHB rules on multiclassing/leveling up. Those rules specifically state that there are exceptions, and even goes on to name a few. All game rules function within the limitations set by other rules, that's why there's Specific > General.

Let's revisit that PHB quote of yours:
"When a multiclass character advances a level in a current class, he or she gets all the standard benefits that a character normally receives for attaining that level in that class: more hit points, possible bonuses on attack rolls, Armor Class and saving throws (depending on the class and the new level), possible new class features (as defined by the class), possible new spells, and new skill points."

It is possible for a Crusader 1 to gain five 1st level maneuvers known. However, 'as defined by the class' is under the limitations of that Sage ruling I referenced, that you can't learn the same maneuver more than once, because it is a rule on how maneuvers known functions for all ToB classes. Therefore, you're gaining as many maneuvers known as possible up to five per the FAQ ruling on choosing fewer, but you're still only gaining as many as what's available as defined by that class as ruled by the Sage.

[The Redwolf]

If I remember correctly someone posted a link to some errata the other day for TOB and it specified that White Raven Tactics can't be used on yourself...

[Metahuman1]

...

I leave the topic alone for a day, and page fills up more then simpler topic I post and have started looking for something in. 0.0

[mattie_p]

as ruled by the Sage.

If this is the sole crux of your argument, I believe I am done.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Which foes are you one-shotting with level 2 maneuvers at ECL 9? Please tell us which maneuvers and which enemies.

I'm sorry, I'm mixing up my crusader TO builds. I was thinking of the d2 Crusader. My mistake, carry on.

[tyckspoon]

If I remember correctly someone posted a link to some errata the other day for TOB and it specified that White Raven Tactics can't be used on yourself...

There is no official ToB errata worth speaking of- the errata file for ToB covers 3 maneuvers (none of them are White Raven Tactics) before turning into the Complete Mage errata. Any "errata" you might see for Tome of Battle are houserules and homebrew- more respectable homebrew than most, certainly, if you're referring to the Brilliant Gameologists project, but still homebrew.

[Darrin]

If I remember correctly someone posted a link to some errata the other day for TOB and it specified that White Raven Tactics can't be used on yourself...

That was a custserv ruling that contradicts something that's pretty explicitly stated in the PHB glossary. It's somewhat widely regarded that whoever got that question didn't know what he/she was talking about.

The Unofficial ToB Errata Project declared it doesn't work by RAW, but I forget exactly what their reasoning was... I think it had something to do with negative initiative counts. I didn't find it a particularly compelling reason, but I didn't feel like arguing with Sinfire Titan, and the minmax boards have some kind of bizarre "you must post 100 posts before you can actually post" policy.

[Metahuman1]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266388

Hey, this is sorta where I've moved onto, so, if anyone want's to weigh in on that topic and help me out I'd appreciate it, thanks!