Swordsage build help.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, after some attempting to work around the idea of an idiot crusader or similar build, I have come to the conclusion that I won't be able to get it to work for my group and should just play something simpler.


So, toward that end, I am going to run a swordsage. Books are core + ToB, starting level 5th, standard WBL, leaning human on the race for lack of better options, and seriously considering using the unarmed variant.

Help me make this an effective and relatively fun (But not inherently silly.) character to play. Thanks!!!

[Malak'ai]

What's the stat array?
What theme (apart from "silly") are you going for?
What role in the party are you looking to play?
What's the party make up so far? Eg: Elf Rogue, Dwarven Cleric ect.
What's the op level? Low, Medium, High?

[Metahuman1]

Stats haven't been determined yet. I won't know what the generation is gonna be till I know if I'm gonna succeed in getting out of DMing or not. Though I'm loving the idea of just letting my str drop as much as I can while still qualifying for most feats I might want and just grabbing weapons Finesse and Shadow Blade Strike.


Theme, I don't want it to be silly. Do Not Want that. I was actually looking at kinda a Chinese martial artist theme, though I may make the character Female as I get into the nitty gritty of a back-story.


I'm looking to play mostly Melee, though a bit of adaptability would be nice if it's not gonna be too much.

I'm pretty sure I'll have a Bard, don't know what the race on her is yet. I'm also pretty sure I'll have an elf ranger or something similar, and I'm all but certain I'll have a paladin. Unfortunately I don't know what else the rest of the party is gonna do. Where probably going to have a get together just to build characters, and I've got one or two that should be legal and with very minor adjustments fit into any configuration they throw at me. This thread is to have something in case I luck out, get out of DMing, and they put together a configuration that will reward a bit of Melee.

Low to Medium Op level. We've got beginners, so shouldn't need too much, but I want to make sure I'm capable and all that.

[Artillery]

Stats haven't been determined yet. I won't know what the generation is gonna be till I know if I'm gonna succeed in getting out of DMing or not. Though I'm loving the idea of just letting my str drop as much as I can while still qualifying for most feats I might want and just grabbing weapons Finesse and Shadow Blade Strike.


Theme, I don't want it to be silly. Do Not Want that. I was actually looking at kinda a Chinese martial artist theme, though I may make the character Female as I get into the nitty gritty of a back-story.


I'm looking to play mostly Melee, though a bit of adaptability would be nice if it's not gonna be too much.

I'm pretty sure I'll have a Bard, don't know what the race on her is yet. I'm also pretty sure I'll have an elf ranger or something similar, and I'm all but certain I'll have a paladin. Unfortunately I don't know what else the rest of the party is gonna do. Where probably going to have a get together just to build characters, and I've got one or two that should be legal and with very minor adjustments fit into any configuration they throw at me. This thread is to have something in case I luck out, get out of DMing, and they put together a configuration that will reward a bit of Melee.

Low to Medium Op level. We've got beginners, so shouldn't need too much, but I want to make sure I'm capable and all that.

Are flaws allowed?
Is there any chance of getting to play as a Whisper Gnome?

So you want to be a Dex based Swordsage, potentially Unarmed Swordsage.
Dex based with Weapon Finesse and Shadowblade; also Adaptive Style because Swordsage. If you go Unarmed Swordsage look into prestiging into Shadow Sun Ninja and/or Bloodclaw master. Bloodclaw if TWF. Shadow Sun for good saves and a way to get infinite healing with an undead team mate.

[Bakkan]

If you've got a bard, I suggest going TWF, especially if he goes Dragonfire Inspiration route.

I actually don't recommend dumping Strength too much because Shadow Blade adds your Dex modifier to damage rather than replacing Strength with it. This also saves you a precious feat on Weapon Finesse.

I'd consider going Wood Elf. You get +2 Strength, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int. The Con hit hurts, but the only thing you use Int for is Skills and you already get 6 of them. If you go this way, you can get a stat array like

STR 18 (16 base + 2 racial)
DEX 18 (15 base + 1 racial + 1 levelup)
CON 12 (14 base -2 racial)
INT 8 (10 base -2 racial)
WIS 14 (14 base)
CHA 8 (8 base)

With a 32 point buy. If you don't mind bringing a little less hurt you could drop STR by 2 and increasing CON by 2 or INT by 4.

Your feats in this setup should be TWF (obviously) and Shadow Blade. If you can get flaws, pick up Adaptive Style (and if not, get it at 6th).

Now if you go with the Unarmed Swordsage variant, you will have 1d8 fists at level 5. Your attacks would be at +7 (3 BAB + 4 STR) and deal 1d8+8 main hand and 1d8+6 off hand.

Your HP are not terribly great at 8 + 4d8 + 5 for an average of 31. However, your AC should be respectable: 10 + 4 (DEX) + 2 (WIS) + 4 (Mithril Chain Shirt) = 20.

[Metahuman1]

50/50 shot at even having an undead team mate.

Very low chance of either flaws or Whisper Gnome. Almost no chance of both. Will depend entirely on which of the two people who may take over DMing actually does so, if I don't get the job myself.


If it's one, I MIGHT be able to talk him into it. Might.


If it's the other, I already know he's gonna say know and it will be a miracle if I can talk him into tome of battle. If he's running it, I'm just gonna build a wizard for this game. I'm obviously planning for the other guy.


Edit: I don't think Bard is gonna go DFI, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure since the players new there gonna be sticking to basics to learn. That's probably gonna mean no access to dragon magic.

Edit: Had a though after I went to bed last night.

Would playing a Warblade with a Dip into swordsage to qualify me for A shadow hand and a desert wind maneuver work so that I can snag evasive reflexes and Shadow blade strike early own? And would it allow me to still use swordsage to get some of the neater Setting Sun and Shadow hand tricks like being able to move with you opponent when he tries to take a 5ft step back to cast or walk on water that come form higher level maneuvers?

If this would work, could I also get a reasonable amount of self healing from a dip into Crusader?

[Stegyre]

Would playing a Warblade with a Dip into swordsage to qualify me for A shadow hand and a desert wind maneuver work so that I can snag evasive reflexes and Shadow blade strike early own?
Yes and . . . what?

The prereq for Shadow Blade is "One Shadow Hand stance." You can get that in your first SS level. (My favorite: Child of Shadows.)

The prereq for Evasive Reflexes is "Dex 13." 'Not sure where you're getting the idea that you need a Desert Wind maneuver for anything. Maybe you just want one? (To each his own: I never cared much for DW, myself.)

And would it allow me to still use swordsage to get some of the neater Setting Sun and Shadow hand tricks . . . .
Yes. When selecting maneuvers and stances for your SS levels, you may choose from any available SS disciplines and any maneuvers or stances that you qualify for based on your SS initiator level. (That is SS levels + 1/2 any other levels (including WB or Crusader.)

If this would work, could I also get a reasonable amount of self healing from a dip into Crusader?
Yes, and you can even do the "idiot crusader":

Ignore all that poppycock about having to take other ToB classes first so that you only know as many Crusader maneuvers as are granted. Maneuvers are granted from the those that a Crusader has "readied," not from those that are "known." (See ToB at 9-10.) If your Crusader knew all of the maneuvers but only "readied" two of them, then at the end of each turn, he would meet the requirement to have "all" (i.e., both) of those maneuvers refreshed, because "you have no withheld manuevers remaining." (ToB at 10.)

(I've made this point at least a couple of times in other "idiot C" discussions, but no one pays any attention.)

Beyond that, my only recommendation for mixing ToB classes is that you choose to focus in one (any one), and then save your dips into the others for relatively high levels (depending upon how high your campaign is going), so you can cherry-pick their best maneuvers. If you are starting at CL 5, for example, take 4 warblade levels (getting 5 known, 4 readied, and 2 stances, including 1 second level manuever and stance), and then cap with a SS level (able to choose 6 first or second level manuevers, plus a stance).

If you went to level 20, for another example, you would want at least 14 WB levels to ensure 9th level maneuvers, but could mix in other ToB classes to get up to 6th level maneuvers in those classes.

[Metahuman1]

Well, since sadly I can't tell you how far it will go, I was actually thinking of taking Swordsage 1/ Warblade 4 to start, dipping a level of Crusader at 6th to bring me to Swordsage 1/ Warblade 4/ Crusader 1 and then just taking all Warblade levels after that. As long as I can get a solid amount of self healing from Crusader for that "Just won't go down and stay there." effect, and have all the neat wuxia tricks from setting sun and shadow hand, I'll probably be fine with a warblade who runs around and buys martial texts to learn as many maneuvers as possible and mostly uses Iron Heart, Diamond mind, and some Tiger Claw. And somewhere in there I'll have mountain hammer, naturally.


Does that sound like it'll work or am I missing something important?

[Stegyre]

Does that sound like it'll work or am I missing something important?
Only that you should go WB 4 / then SS 1, not the other way around. Getting up to 2nd level SS maneuvers puts you in the sweet spot in a low-level game: teleport, greater invisibility, mountain hammer . . . .

[Douglas]

(I've made this point at least a couple of times in other "idiot C" discussions, but no one pays any attention.)
That would be because it's a nearly universally accepted ruling that you can only choose which maneuvers to ready, not how many maneuvers to ready. If you are able to ready 5 maneuvers, you must ready all 5 maneuvers. Thus, idiot crusader builds aim to make it impossible to ready more than the desired number of maneuvers.

[Metahuman1]

True, but if I ready all healing maneuvers wouldn't that get me a similar effect?

[Stegyre]

That would be because it's a nearly universally accepted ruling that you can only choose which maneuvers to ready, not how many maneuvers to ready. If you are able to ready 5 maneuvers, you must ready all 5 maneuvers. Thus, idiot crusader builds aim to make it impossible to ready more than the desired number of maneuvers.
Evidence that this is universal?

Textual support for the conclusion?

No one says that a wizard is required to memorize spells for all of his available slots. Where in ToB (or even Sage, CustServ, FAQ) does it say the ToB classes must ready a full complement of manuevers?

[Metahuman1]

Would kinda like the above for myself, cause it would be awesome if I could ready the same manuver more then once. Hell, it would justify a Crusader Dip all by itself just to get White Raven Tactics, battle leaders charge, a place to stick mountain hammer for when I needed it and a bunch of healing form devoted spirit tricks.



Anyway, after some consideration, here's what I'm looking for maneuvers, stances, and stats starting out.

Stats:

Str: As long as I have a 13 or more in here so that I can get the feats I want, I'm happy.
Dex: Will likely be my highest priority stat since it governs AC, Initiative, (as an after though reflex saves.) Weapons Finesse and Shadow Blade also making it fuel damage.
Con: What I wouldn't give to have access to Fearie Mysteries Initiate or Ritual of blood so that I could put this in the low priority bin. Alas, this must be my number two due to HP and fort saves. On the bright side, it helps diamond mind maneuver, which is something half way worth while.
Wis: I'd LOVE Kung fu Genius/Carmadine Monk or Ascetic Mage to make make another stat do it's Job, but given limited splat books, this has to be the big number 3.
Int: I want what I can get here to help with skills, but I'm spread thin, so barring amazing stat generation, I'll probably have to like it if I can get so much as a 12 in here.
Cha: Same here as Int, but less so since It literally only gives me a bonus on a couple of skills that are not massive Priority's. Alas.



Maneuvers.

1st lvl.

I'm thinking I'll grab Moment of perfect mind to open up my investment into Diamond Mind, Steel Wind Strike to open me up to use of Iron Heart, Counter Charge for Setting Sun, Clinging Shadow strike cause it's the least useless of the first level shadow hand maneuvers I can see so that I can qualify for Shadow blade feat right off the bat, And Sudden leap to open later Tiger Claw use. That seems to give me a fairly diverse set of tricks by itself, even if none of them is exceptionally powerful in and of itself.

2nd lvl.

Ok, so, Emerald Razor strike is amazing for when you just have to hit no matter what, thus, I want it. Baffling Defense is a solid trick as long as I have max ranks in Sense Motive, a not trash wisdom score, and make a reasonable effort to boost that skill with gear as I advance, so that's high on my priority list. Mountain Hammer is of course the ultimate Can opener and not a bad thing to be hitting bad guys with at lower to mid levels, so I need that if nothing else from that school.

3rd lvl.

Finally, a real nice Damage dealer in the form of Insightful Strike. And why make saves when you can simply throw out an Iron Heart Surge.

I'd have others, but this is just to start with.



Stances

Having a harder time with this one. I'm looking at Punishing stance for damage boost, Step of the wind for greater mobility more of the time, Hunters Sense for a nice out of combat trick, Leaping Dragon Stance for easier use of Tiger Claw maneuvers, which I'll be picking up more of as I advance, and Roots of the Mountain for better protection against Combat Mauvers such as Trips, Grapples, ext. Input would be nice!