How to Gestalt a Druid [3.5]

[hymer]

The title says most of it, but there's a hurdle: To keep the DM from getting in over his head with complexity, if you want to gestalt, you pick two classes and stay those two classes throughout your career.
With that in mind, druid is a natural choice (if you'll pardon me). On the other hand, it seems the druid is very middle-of-the-road. 3/4 BAB 2/3 good saves, 4 SP/lvl, d8 HD, medium armour. There is no obvious weakness to shore up, no great gain to be made on this count (at least, so it seems to me).
Also, I don't much want another full casting class to keep track of.

So, dear and capable playgrounders, what thoughts come to your fertile minds? What's a cool, powerful and/or flavourful class to gestalt with the druid?

[mregecko]

*insert ToB full BAB class here*

[Darth Stabber]

The most "natural" choice is totemist. It fits very neatly flavor wise, and mechanically it works wonders. Totemist gives you a ton of extra natural weapons that will stick around with you when you wildshape, it shores up your weak reflex save, and otherwise just meshes very nicely. Also it is the least bad combination when combined with VoP (still not great feat even then, but this build is the least hampered).

Swordsage is another good option, especially if you focus on wildshape, use tiger claw manuevers as a tiger. Shores up your reflex, manuevers work while wildshaped, add casting stat to ac, initiative bonuses. It works. Pick up the unarmed varient, and get monks unarmed damage progression (you lose some proficiencies but you still get the druid proficiencies), making a full attack in animal form even scarier since you are adding an iterative of unarmed strikes to you natural weapons. Even without that, improved unarmed strike is a solid option (especially if you also pick up multiattack).

Monk seems like a decent option, but you aren't getting anything good out it that you couldn't get from swordsage.

Barbarian fixes up your bab, and you can rage while wilshaped, but since that turns of your spells it's a less attractive option. Has some neat perks, but meh.

Ranger might be worth consideration, gives you full bab, patches reflex, more skills, not terrible but workable.

Incarnate is a workable option if you aren't focusing on wildshape. adds all sorts of neat tools to your toolbox. Still weak on the reflex and BAB, but that really doesn't matter unless you are power attacking. Not quite as good as totemist when paired with druid, unless you need something specific from it.

Rogue is good as the extra skills come in handy, most notably hide/move silently, and if you have another melee'r in the party the sneak attack goes from occasionally cool, to frequently awesome.

[docnessuno]

*insert ToB full BAB Wis to AC class here*

Fixed it for you.

[Darth Stabber]

*insert ToB full BAB class here*

Full bab is unnecessary if you aren't power attacking, swordsage better than warblade or crusader in this case.

[Urpriest]

Full bab is unnecessary if you aren't power attacking, swordsage better than warblade or crusader in this case.

Power Attacking is hardly a terrible way to get damage out of natural weapons, though. Not the only way, but certainly an option.

[Amnestic]

Totemist and (Unarmed) Swordsage are indeed two of the good ones. Binder would also fit (though strays into MAD territory).

[Andreaz]

If you just want feats you could always go into stuff like the Fighter too. My personal pick's the totemist and play Happy Wheels with the enemy.

[Darth Stabber]

Power Attacking is hardly a terrible way to get damage out of natural weapons, though. Not the only way, but certainly an option.

True but consider the premium on class abilities that most full BAB classes had to forgo to get full bab. I would take druid//totemist or druid//swordsage over druid//warblade, druid//crusader, druid//barbarian, or druid//ranger 99% of the time. Manuevers and/or extra natural weapons are a far better source of damage most of the time. Usually there is no reason you could't use a combination, but in this particular instance there is a very good reason why not, so you ignore the full BAB, and grab relevant class abilities instead.

And if your GM allows you take LA up one side of a gestalt, go with pixie as your race, it's insane.

[Fouredged Sword]

If PRC's are allowed on one side a Goliath druid (shapeshifter) // barbarian 3 / warshaper 4 / warhulk 10 / barbarian 2 works wonders for a melee smash druid. You can almost dump strength due to the massive boosts you get while raging (mountain rage to make you large) or shapeshifted into a larger form.

Shift and hulk out, then calm down, shift back, and be a wise old druid. You can almost be venerable if you start with a high con and get the +3 wis. Be a strength 6 druid who gets strength 40 whenever you need it.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Another advantage of Unarmed Swordsage over a full BAB ToB class is SS's focus on boosts which work much better with multi attacing forms than strikes do. Also can't Unarmed Strike be added to a Natural Weapon attack routine?

If there's a good way to switch it's good save to Ref, fighter would be a strong choice with Hit and Run and such.

[Urpriest]

True but consider the premium on class abilities that most full BAB classes had to forgo to get full bab. I would take druid//totemist or druid//swordsage over druid//warblade, druid//crusader, druid//barbarian, or druid//ranger 99% of the time. Manuevers and/or extra natural weapons are a far better source of damage most of the time. Usually there is no reason you could't use a combination, but in this particular instance there is a very good reason why not, so you ignore the full BAB, and grab relevant class abilities instead.

And if your GM allows you take LA up one side of a gestalt, go with pixie as your race, it's insane.

Largely true. A sufficiently heavily ACFed Barbarian though seems still competitive: Unarmed TWF, Pounce or Improved Grab in all forms, Improved Trip without the Int, stacking improvements to crit range, versatility in charging, plus rage if you feel safe without casting. Plus d12 HD.

[Fyermind]

If LA is allowed, Saint gives Wisdom to armor class.
Combine with Unarmed Swordsage for good defenses. Losing a few levels on swordsage isn't at all crippling. (I'd suggest loosing 0 or 4 personally though, so look for another template or barbarian 2 dip)

Actually Druid 20 // Saint 2 / Barbarian 2 / Unarmed Swordsage 16 looks very strong.

If no templates Druid 20 // Babarian 2 / Fighter 2 (hit and run) / Unarmed swordsage 16
Gets you the extra iterative at 20 even with fractional attack bonuses a few combat feats at a level where they help. and second level maneuvers from the get-go. Oh and things like pounce and dexterity to damage against flat-footed opponents, and extra hit points at low levels when HP damage is a major threat.
Relative to Unarmed Swordsage 20 you gain access to higher level maneuvers later (you keep 9s though, getting them at 19 instead of 17) unarmed to AC later, miss double boost entirely (that one hurts) and one point towards your reflex save. In exchange you get three feats including prerequisite-free improved trip, and two combat feats of your choice, extra HP at low levels, and pounce all the time.

[hymer]

@ mregecko: So you're advocating a wildshape-based thing? That pretty much boils down to Warblade, since Crusader seems to be pretty counter-fluff to the druid (it's a deity-less druid). How would you go about constructing the Warblade half?

@ Darth Stabber: Thanks for the analysis!
Totemist does mesh very naturally with druid, but it doesn't seem to offer so much. It's got the reflex save mostly, but the whole shapeshifting shtick is kinda already taken. I could Druidzilla well enough even without the souldmelds. In BAB, skills, HD, the basics of the class offers next to nothing to a druid, which is sad.
I agree on monk, it's basically the wis-to-AC that makes it attractive (though speed boosts and various defensive benefits don't hurt). But there's a belt for the important stuff, after all.
My problem with swordsage is that it takes light armour worn to get wis to AC from it, and I won't be wearing armour in wildshape form. The rest looks cool, but the best feature is wasted.
Agreed on barbarian and ranger. I just wish the ranger's combat styles would work with a wildshaping druid, it'd be a lot more attractive.
I'm worried Incarnate fluff sits ill with druid (neutrality vs. extremes of alignment), so I'll (reluctantly) rule that out.
Rogue does seem to be the thing for me in this case. Picking up Frozen Wild Shape and making sneak attacks with twelve attacks per round... Sounds like fun to me! :smallsmile:

@ docnessuno: Yeah, well, swordsage only gives that bonus while wearing light armour. Not good for shapeshifters.

@ Urpriest: I'm thinking that Penetrative Strike sneak attacks will do better on average. I can make my animal companion ino the perfect flanking buddy. :smallsmile: But there's definitely something to be said for full BAB, especially in low-mid levels.

@ Amnestic: Binders... Yeah, if Nature thinks they're okay, they could be fun. :smallsmile: Diplomacy is a class skill for druids after all, I could make it pretty mean diplomancer.
Swordsage loses its most attractive offer in wis-to-AC, since that requires light armour, and I'll be needing it most when I'm wildshaped.

@ Andreaz: Happy wheel? :smallbiggrin: Care to elaborate? As for fighter, sure. Full BAB and all the feats you can swallow. I just wonder how many fighter bonus feats are really useful for wildshape combat. I'd have to do some checking.

@ Fouredged Sword: They aren't allowed, but thanks anyway. :smallsmile:

@ Hand_of_Vecna: SS has a lot going for it, but I lose its most attractive offer, wis to AC (since it requires you to be wearing light armour). As for the fighter, I agree. But I don't know of any way to switch its good save to Ref either. :smallfrown:

@ Fyermind: Have to stick to just one singleclass on one side and one singleclass on the other if I want to gestalt, so I'm afraid the suggestion won't hold. I don't think LA buyoff is on the table, so I'd rather not hit my druid casting with it. Thanks, though.

[docnessuno]

While by RAW swordsages get the Wis-to-AC only in light armour, i still have to find a single DM that doesn't allow it in no armor.

If your DM is a RaW guru, i'd consider getting EWP (scorpion tail whip).

[hymer]

I don't really want to make a build based on my hopes that the DM will be lenient. :smallsmile: Especially when I'm using a tier 1 class; he has good cause to be strict. But I'm sure you're right, most DMs wouldn't mind bending RAW here.

On the EWP: Eh? Why, how, what?

[Darth Stabber]

If LA is allowed, Saint gives Wisdom to armor class.
Combine with Unarmed Swordsage for good defenses. Losing a few levels on swordsage isn't at all crippling. (I'd suggest loosing 0 or 4 personally though, so look for another template or barbarian 2 dip)

Actually Druid 20 // Saint 2 / Barbarian 2 / Unarmed Swordsage 16 looks very strong.

If no templates Druid 20 // Babarian 2 / Fighter 2 (hit and run) / Unarmed swordsage 16
Gets you the extra iterative at 20 even with fractional attack bonuses a few combat feats at a level where they help. and second level maneuvers from the get-go. Oh and things like pounce and dexterity to damage against flat-footed opponents, and extra hit points at low levels when HP damage is a major threat.
Relative to Unarmed Swordsage 20 you gain access to higher level maneuvers later (you keep 9s though, getting them at 19 instead of 17) unarmed to AC later, miss double boost entirely (that one hurts) and one point towards your reflex save. In exchange you get three feats including prerequisite-free improved trip, and two combat feats of your choice, extra HP at low levels, and pounce all the time.

Read the op. You have to stick with the same two classes. If we are just talking druid gestalts in general

Pixie LA4/totemist7/unarmedswordsage2/saint2/whirling frenzy spirit lion barbarian1/warshaper4
Feats
Flaw: spell focus conj
lvl1: augment summoning
lvl3: extend spell
lvl6: natural spell
lvl9: exalted wildshape
Lvl12: multiattack
lvl15: aberration wildshape
lvl18: rapidstrike

[docnessuno]

On the EWP: Eh? Why, how, what?

Exotic 1h weapon that deals 1d33 (small) / 1d43 (medium) nonlethal damage, critical 20 / x2. On a critical hit the damage becomes lethal and it injects poison.
From Sandstorm.

[hymer]

Ah, right! :smallbiggrin: Thanks. I think the whip in my own PHB is something like that too. Now where did I put that d33?

[Darth Stabber]

@ Darth Stabber: Thanks for the analysis!
Totemist does mesh very naturally with druid, but it doesn't seem to offer so much. It's got the reflex save mostly, but the whole shapeshifting shtick is kinda already taken. I could Druidzilla well enough even without the souldmelds. In BAB, skills, HD, the basics of the class offers next to nothing to a druid, which is sad.
I agree on monk, it's basically the wis-to-AC that makes it attractive (though speed boosts and various defensive benefits don't hurt). But there's a belt for the important stuff, after all.
My problem with swordsage is that it takes light armour worn to get wis to AC from it, and I won't be wearing armour in wildshape form. The rest looks cool, but the best feature is wasted.
Agreed on barbarian and ranger. I just wish the ranger's combat styles would work with a wildshaping druid, it'd be a lot more attractive.
I'm worried Incarnate fluff sits ill with druid (neutrality vs. extremes of alignment), so I'll (reluctantly) rule that out.
Rogue does seem to be the thing for me in this case. Picking up Frozen Wild Shape and making sneak attacks with twelve attacks per round... Sounds like fun to me! :smallsmile:

Druids have an amazing chassis, and don't have much of a weakness to cover. The only thing you may need is reflex save, which totemist covers. Totemist offers even more of what wildshaped is good at (lots of attacks), and in this case it's the good kind of overkill. It also gives decent skill bonuses, allowing you to be a good skill monkey. D8HD is more than sufficient, full BAB is over rated, and 4+ skills is more than sufficient with totemist's soulmeld based bonuses, all of your saves are good, and you have a massive day to day reconfigurability. Also note that totemist has several melds that offer nice benefits to any natural weapon, not just meld granted ones.

If you want my recommendation
if la=0
human druid20/totemist20
feats
Lvl1: spell focus conj
human: augment summoning
lvl3: improved unarmed strike
lvl6: natural spell
lvl9: exalted wildshape
lvl12: multiattack
lvl15: aberration wildshape
lvl18: dragon wildshape

LA allowed up one side
Pixie la4/totemist16/druid20
feats (replicate above, include shaky flaw)

[mregecko]

While by RAW swordsages get the Wis-to-AC only in light armour, i still have to find a single DM that doesn't allow it in no armor.

If your DM is a RaW guru, i'd consider getting EWP (scorpion tail whip).

To be fair, if your DM is a RaW guru, you can always just get some light Beastskin Armor and call it a day. (I don't think Wilding Clasps work, they won't change the shape of magic armor iirc).

I honestly think you're going to do pretty well with any of the three ToB base classes. Swordsage has the Wis/AC synchronicity, but I'm assuming your INT is going to be pretty good too (since you can tank your physical stats), so Warblade isn't bad, especially with the full BAB.

Crusader might not net you as much, but it's full BAB and wouldn't be a weak choice.

[Srasy]

What about scout? It gives you almost everything a druid is missing and IMO it is pretty elegant...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp (MIC) to add your Wis bonus to AC when unarmored. Cast ((Rod of) Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) every day. Note that a Wilding Clasp makes the attached item 'continue to function' when you wild shape, and one function of a belt whether magic or mundane is to hold other items. That means your belt can still be used to hold other items when you wild shape, so any items your belt is holding (wands, metamagic rods, etc.) will also remain functional instead of melding into your form when you wild shape.

Use Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), go Druid 20// Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) 3/ Orc Paragon 3/ Warshaper 4/ Master of Many Forms 10. Note that Warshaper 5 is a worthless dead level, take that class after MoMF if you have to take every level of a given class before switching to another one. Also note that you retain your class features when you wild shape, including the +2 Strength from both racial paragon classes.

Use Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) instead of the standard Rage from Half-Orc Paragon, and possibly pick up Extra Rage (CW). If your DM will allow the feat Shared Fury (RotW) to benefit from Companion Spellbond (PH2) then Extra Rage at least once would definitely be worth it, as would Extend Rage (via the Otyugh Hole in CS so it doesn't cost you a feat). Never ever use the Shapeshift Druid variant.

[Icewraith]

+1 for scout.

Go kitty, full attack on charge + skirmish bonus to all attacks is nice. You get skills and nifty class features as well.

[Darth Stabber]

Scout offer little that rogue can't do better.

1)The overlap between skillsets of scout and druid, you are getting points but not many more options

2)Scout doesn't get near as many skirmish dice as rogue gets sneak attack

3)Sneak attack doesn't require movement

4)Since you have an animal companion and SNA you can get flanking very easily

There are a couple of nice stealth abilities that scout gets, that rogue doesn't, but given you are already a druid you have very little need. The flavor overlap is less, but the combined functionality of druid//rogue is greater.

[hymer]

@ Srasy: Definitely worth considering, though for sheer damage potential it doesn't do well compared to the rogue option (especially if the rogue takes penetrating strike). Some of the really good stuff from Scout also gets duplicated by spells that druids get. But it does mesh extremely well fluff-wise.
Thanks for the suggestion.

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: Luminous Armor, check. Wilding clasps, check. Monk's belt, check. Though most of my shapes won't have arms to actually wield rods and wands. If they do, I can take the belt off, shift, and then put the belt on afterwards.
Can't do that build suggestion, though, as per the restrictions set up in the OP. But I appreciate the thought.

@ Icewraith: True indeed, though a surprise round kitty charge with a rogue gestalt is even deadlier. :smallsmile: Thanks for +1. :smallwink:

[Fouredged Sword]

As your companion advances in HD talk your DM into letting it take Martial study for any shadow hand strike and martial stance for Iles of Blades as feats. It can then flank from any angle. Very nice for a flanking buddy.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always liked Monk for gestalt with druid. I realize swordsage is more powerful as is totemist, but monk is fairly simple, at least. Get wis to AC, turn into a form that can pounce and has high Str, then charge and use your flurry of blows and then all natural attacks as secondary nat weapons at the end.

Rogue is actually pretty nice solely due to the Savage Grapple feat. Anyone you are grappling takes sneak attack damage on every attack you make. Of course, Swordsage w/ Assassin's Stance and Craven feat could do this well enough, too.

[Darth Stabber]

I always liked Monk for gestalt with druid. I realize swordsage is more powerful as is totemist, but monk is fairly simple, at least. Get wis to AC, turn into a form that can pounce and has high Str, then charge and use your flurry of blows and then all natural attacks as secondary nat weapons at the end.

Rogue is actually pretty nice solely due to the Savage Grapple feat. Anyone you are grappling takes sneak attack damage on every attack you make. Of course, Swordsage w/ Assassin's Stance and Craven feat could do this well enough, too.

Savage grapple isn't the sole reason rogue works, though it sounds pretty good. There are several reasons why rogue is a decent choice.

1) UMD. Druid has the worst spell list of the tier 1s (though it has the best class features). Now that is kind of like being the poorest billionaire, but there are some really nice things out there that druid would have.

2) Other skills. Most notably hide and move silently, but a few others are very nice.

3) Sneak Attack is great, even without applying it to grapples. Druid//Rogue has stealth skills, so it can activate it the normal way. But do remember that Druid's animal companion and SNA guarantee that you have a flanking partner, meaning anything sneak attackable is going to get it. And with UMD you can apply it to a lot of things (gravestrike and the like). Also note that with natural weapons + improved unarmed strike, you are going to get to roll them 'til corners wear off your dice.

[Gnaeus]

I can't believe no one mentioned the gold star. Factotum.

Spend multiple standard actions with a tier one spell list. Yes please!

Round 1:
Bite of the Werebear
Wildshape
Venomfire
Pounce

Round 2. Search the body.

[Darth Stabber]

I can't believe no one mentioned the gold star. Factotum.

Spend multiple standard actions with a tier one spell list. Yes please!

Round 1:
Bite of the Werebear
Wildshape
Venomfire
Pounce

Round 2. Search the body.

I tend to forget/ignore factotum for non-int classes, synergy and all, but factotum does bring a lot to the table.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: Luminous Armor, check. Wilding clasps, check. Monk's belt, check. Though most of my shapes won't have arms to actually wield rods and wands. If they do, I can take the belt off, shift, and then put the belt on afterwards.
Can't do that build suggestion, though, as per the restrictions set up in the OP. But I appreciate the thought.

You don't need a hand free to use a metamagic rod, possession is the only factor. Furthermore, the line, "Anyone can use a rod (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm)," would mean that even those creatures who do not have grasping limbs (and anyone who takes their form) could still use one, unhindered by a lack of thumbs.

Note that you can Wild Shape into a combat form, then Wild Shape again into something like a bird. Fly around all you need to as a bird, and when it comes time to fight you can dismiss the wild shape: bird and you'll go back to the combat form you were in before, as long as some of its duration is left. For this reason you should never dismiss a Wild Shape early unless you need to go back to humanoid form, or need to go back to the last form you were in. Wild Shape: Bear then dismiss it to Wild Shape: Bird then dismiss it to Wild Shape: Bear is three uses. Wild Shape: Bear then Wild Shape: Bird on top of it then Wild Shape: Shark on top of that, then dismiss Wild Shape: Shark to go back to a bird, then dismiss Wild Shape: Bird to go back to a bear, is also three uses but five different stages of forms.

The build I offered actually takes every level of each of its classes except Warshaper, which you can put at the end of the build, so it should still work with the limitations outlined in the OP.

You shouldn't have to take the belt off before wild shaping to preserve the items it holds if it has a Wilding Clasp. One of a belt's functions is to hold other items for you, and that function is preserved by the Wildling Clasp, which means the belt continues to hold those items when you wild shape, which makes those items benefit from the wilding clasp by virtue of the belt's function.

[hymer]

@ Gnaeus: Should be possible to get a decent Int anyway. Thanks for the suggestion.

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: Sorry, I'll try to be clearer:


pick two classes [such as druid and factotum] and stay those two classes throughout your career.

Can't pick more than one class besides druid, and since one can't start out as prestige, it'll have to be a base class.
Good point on the shapeshifting, though rods in MIC are noted as "Body Slot: - (held)", which is described as needing to be held in and manipulated by hand (MIC p. 219). So I'm afraid that doesn't fly, or at least there's pretty solid precedent for shooting it down if it tries. :smallsmile:
My point about the belt was merely that I could use the wilding clasp on another piece of equipment while shifting to something with hands, but of course I'd hope to have clasps for all my essential equipment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: Sorry, I'll try to be clearer:

Can't pick more than one class besides druid, and since one can't start out as prestige, it'll have to be a base class.
Good point on the shapeshifting, though rods in MIC are noted as "Body Slot: - (held)", which is described as needing to be held in and manipulated by hand (MIC p. 219). So I'm afraid that doesn't fly, or at least there's pretty solid precedent for shooting it down if it tries. :smallsmile:
My point about the belt was merely that I could use the wilding clasp on another piece of equipment while shifting to something with hands, but of course I'd hope to have clasps for all my essential equipment.

The racial paragon classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) I recommended basically are prestige classes.

You can save on Wilding Clasps by putting multiple properties on items, per MIC p234. Plus there are items that still work when you Wild Shape and don't need a clasp, such as the Raiment of the Stormwalker set (MIC) and Mantle/Ring of the Beast (CC). You can add properties to those items as well to use even fewer clasps.