Feats feats feats! (level one feat optimization)

[Noctis Vigil]

So a buddy of mine recently challenged me with the following: make a build with the most possible feats at level one. Any official 3.5 material is allowed. The build does not have to be useful, only have lots of feats. I'm up to six so far, and wanted to know if it's possible to go higher.

Current build: L1 Human Cleric (2 flaws, L1 feat, Human racial feat, 2 from War domain)

Any suggestions? I think there's at least one other domain that grants a feat, but I couldn't find it.

[ko_sct]

Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Well you could start by switching your race to elf since it give 4 martial weapon proficiency feat.

[Anecronwashere]

Then pick Fighter or a ToB class for all those shield and armour profs?

lvl1 Human Warblade with 2 Feats would get more feats

[docnessuno]

Cleric also gives you:
Armor proficiency (light)
Armor proficiency (medium)
Armor proficiency (heavy)
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Shield Proficiency

One addidtional feat from trading a domain for the correponding devotion feat, or for chosing a feat-granting domain.

If you dont consider the armor and simple weapon proficiency as valid, Cloistered cleric can gain knowledge devotion in addition to the other 2 domains.

A level 1 elven cleric would end up with 13 feats, +2 for flaws. (9+2 feats for a cloistered cleric, not counting class-grated proficiency)

[soveliss24]

Shield and armor profs from a class aren't feats, unlike those from being an Elf. Also, Elf feats can be Dark Chaos Shuffled if cheese is allowed. Elf Cleric with two flaws and War domain yields 9 feats this way, only 2 of which are predetermined (War domain). Technically can't be done during character generation, but can be done to a level 1 character assuming you can find a caster for the Shuffle...

[docnessuno]

Shield and armor profs from a class aren't feats, unlike those from being an Elf. Also, Elf feats can be Dark Chaos Shuffled if cheese is allowed. Elf Cleric with two flaws and War domain yields 9 feats this way, only 2 of which are predetermined (War domain). Technically can't be done during character generation, but can be done to a level 1 character assuming you can find a caster for the Shuffle...

Add two more feats for being a cloistered cleric with knowledge devotion and either another feat-granting domain (several around) or another devotion.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you consider every individual weapon as a potential Simple Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency, then the martial classes have a bit of an edge...after all, how do you calculate how many weapon proficiencies a fighter actually has?

[Noctis Vigil]

Hmm. I hadn't thought of base class proficiencies as feats. Yes, I know they're feat equivalents, but I don't actually count them as full feats (otherwise Fighter is the obvious way to go here). Good thought though, Anecronwashere.

You're right about the elven proficiencies, though, ko_sct, good catch.

Current build: L1 Elven Cleric (2 flaws, L1 feat, 4 racial feats, 2 War domain feats).

Hmm. Doesn't VoP grant an extra feat if you can nab it at first level?

EDIT: O.o; you guys reply fast!

[docnessuno]

If you consider every individual weapon as a potential Simple Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency, then the martial classes have a bit of an edge...after all, how do you calculate how many weapon proficiencies a fighter actually has?

While martial weapon proficiency does not translate into a single feat, simple does.


Hmm. Doesn't VoP grant an extra feat if you can nab it at first level?

It does, but requires two feats. (Sacred Vow, Wov of poverty)
And you are stills short by two feats in your example.

[Noctis Vigil]

And you are stills short by two feats in your example.

Eh? Which two did I forget?

[docnessuno]

Eh? Which two did I forget?

Three domains for being a cloistered cleric.
War gives you two feats.
Knowledge is traded for Knowledge devotion (one feat).
One domain is either a feat-granting domain or is traded for the appropriate devotion feat (one feat).

[BowStreetRunner]

While martial weapon proficiency does not translate into a single feat, simple does.

Okay, so Simple Weapon Proficiency is a single feat that grants proficiency with all Simple weapons, and Martial Weapon Proficiency must be taken for each weapon individually.

So how many Martial Weapon Proficiencies does a fighter have? The class feature says ALL of them, but how many is that?

[VGLordR2]

You can get two additional feats if you make a Pact Insidious, from Fiendish Codex.

[soveliss24]

Resulting in 11 feats on a level 1? Sheesh. Fighters are crying themselves to sleep even more than usual.

EDIT: 13 with Pact Insidious, I guess. Wow.

[docnessuno]

You can get two additional feats if you make a Pact Insidious, from Fiendish Codex.

Good catch, but if we gets in the land of feats gained for things you "do" (as opposed to racial / class features), we can get infinite feats.

[Noctis Vigil]

Where are rules for trading domains for devotional feats? I've not heard of that before.

[docnessuno]

Where are rules for trading domains for devotional feats? I've not heard of that before.

Complete champion pg 53

[BowStreetRunner]

The Metal domain (PGF) also gives two proficiencies. Any deities with both Metal and War domains?

[docnessuno]

The Metal domain (PGF) also gives two proficiencies. Any deities with both Metal and War domains?

No need, (cloistered) cleric of an ideal works (and War+Metal also seems like a pretty good fit).

[Fyermind]

Devoting yourself to an elder Evil gets you another bonus (vile) feat at level 1 iirc

Edit: You get another two for advancing to severe taint according to Heroes of horror (page 67?)

[Bakkan]

Just wanted to try to help clarify things regarding armor/weapon proficiencies.

Note that "being proficient with..." is not the same as "having the proficiency feat for..."

Note, from the fighter class description



A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).


This statement makes no mention of feats whatsoever.

We can not turn to the weapon proficiency feats



All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.




Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.


In both cases, we are told that the classes mentioned need not select these feats, because they simply "are proficient". Contrast this to the armor proficiency feats:



All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.




Fighters, barbarians, paladins, clerics, druids, and bards automatically have Armor Proficiency (medium) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.




Fighters, paladins, and clerics automatically have Armor Proficiency (heavy) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.




Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.




Fighters automatically have Tower Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.


In these cases, the feats explicitly tell us that such classes receive these feats as bonus feats. Note that is does not explicitly say that in all cases, armor proficiency implies having the related feat, but only makes that statement for the core classes.

Now for some specific cases:



A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deity’s weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category.


Note that this ability explicitly gives the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat rather than simply granting proficiency.



Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

On the other hand, the monk simply gains proficiency with a specified list of weapons, and not any feats.


So, in summary, in Core (and probably everywhere), class-based armor and shield proficiency give the related feats while class-based weapon proficiency does not (with one or two exceptions like the war domain cleric)