Draconic Invasion! [PF; Though experiment] [Archive]

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Absol197

2013-01-03, 05:47 PM

This is a thought experiment I’ve been playing with in my head for a while, and a recent thread here (if I can find it, I'll link it) has prompted me to post it and see what you guys think.

Here’s the scenario: dragons from another world have decided to launch an all-out invasion of our world! They’ve amassed an army, secured a magical portal to let them in, and plan to cow us into submitting, so that they can rule our world with us as servants.

Of course, the leaders of our world won’t take that very well, and humanity is likely to fight back. Do the dragons have enough firepower to win the ensuing war, or can we destroy them, or at least enough of them that total domination is beyond them?

Some details:

—All published Pathfinder dragons are involved;
—The portal opens somewhere in New York City (because it’s always New York city!), at midnight local time. Where is up to you, and how does that change the scenario?
—All magical and supernatural abilities of the given dragons work normally, including Plane Shifting. We’re essentially on an alternate material plane, but any creature from a different one can’t come here, and any creature from ours can’t go to a different one. The portal basically changes which Material Plane the dragons call “home” for the purposes of those spells.
—The dragons can breed at whatever rate is normal for their species, but they do not bring any eggs through, which means that it will be years at least before they can start replacing any lost troops.

What do the dragons know?
The dragons know that they are going to a human world where there are no dragons. They also know that they will be arriving in a large city. Otherwise, they have no idea about our technology, geography, customs, etc. They probably already have a plan, seeing as their leaders are smarter than the greatest geniuses we’ve ever known, but their plan is likely going to need some major rehauling once they see what we’re capable of.

What do we know?
Nothing! We have no idea this is happening until it happens.

There are a couple small changes that I include:
—The great gold wyrm has a fly speed of 300 ft., because of its fast flight ability;
—Breath weapons can be used at greater range than normal – all breath weapons deal 1/2 damage out to twice their range, 1/4 out to three times their range, and so on, until they would be rolling less than 1 die. For each additional “range increment” of a breath weapon, the save DC decreases by 2. Drakes can instead shoot their “breath weapons” up to 5 range increments, but now must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit. Their breath explodes at the edge of its range if it doesn’t contact anything;
—Humans can learn to create “cold iron,” although it’s not easy or cheap. We need to know how to do it first, though (and that it’s capable of overcoming a linnorm’s DR and regeneration), which may mean interrogating an enemy…
—Draconic is a language that has never existed on our world, but every other language in the D&D-verse is essentially a real-world language (this is a funny coincidence, but it’s useful!);
—The good-aligned dragons and the evil-aligned dragons work together, and have the same goals. This could mean that the “good” dragons are actually evil- or neutral- aligned, that they see some greater reason for engaging in this behavior, or they still have a good alignment, but they’re just jerks. Either way, trying to split the dragon army up on alignment grounds isn’t likely to work. Although it might work based on some other criteria, such as treasure…

THE DRACONIC ARMY
The dragon army is very big and contains some incredibly powerful creatures in it, but is it big enough for their purposes? Their army has fewer of the more powerful dragons, based on the CR of the beast in question. The exception is the true dragons, who’s numbers are based on their age categories.

{table=head]CR|Number|Dragon Species
1/4|2,097,152|Kobolds
1|524,288|Pseudodragons
2|262,144|Faerie dragons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-faerie), tatzlwyrms
3|131,072|River drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-river), tidepool dragons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-tidepool)
4|65,636|Forest drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-forest)
5|32,768|Flame drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-flame)
6|16,384|Sea drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-sea), wyverns
7|8,192|Dracolisks, frost drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-frost)
8|4,096|Desert drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-desert)
9|2,048|Aeetes’ dragons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-aeetes-cnv)*, dragonkin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragonkin), rift drakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-rift)
10|1,024|Dragon turtles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-turtle), korir-kokembes, peludas
14|64|Crag linnorms
15|32|Gare linnorms, gorynychs, kongamatos, woundwyrms
16|16|Fjord linnorms, spine dragons
17|8|Ice linnorms
18|4|Cairn linnorms
19|2|Taiga linnorms
20+|1|Jabberwock, tarn linnorm, tor linnorm[/table]
*This isn’t an official Pathfinder dragon, but I really like it, so I’m including it :smalltongue:
Links to all these dragons are forthcoming...

{table=head]Age Category|Number*|Time to arrive**
Wyrmling|144|5 min.
Very young|121|10 min.
Young|100|15 min.
Juvenile|81|20 min.
Young adult|64|25 min.
Adult|49|30 min.
Mature adult|36|35 min.
Old|25|40 min.
Very old|16|45 min.
Ancient|9|50 min.
Wyrm|4|55 min.
Great wyrm|1|1 hr.[/table]
* There are this many of each true dragon species.
**This is the time since the last group of true dragons arrived fully.

The true dragons arrive in the following order: white, crystal, underworld, brass, black, brine, sea, copper, green, magma, sky, bronze, blue, cloud, forest, silver, red, umbral, sovereign, gold. So all the white dragons (wyrmling through great wyrm) arrive, then the crystal dragons starting with the wyrmlings, etc. 50% of the true dragons have the spell list given in the Bestiary (including the great wyrm), while others have different spells. However, they tend to stick close to the themes of the given spell list, as those effects are favorites of the different kinds of dragons. This applies to the other rare species (faerie dragons and tidepool dragons) that also cast spells.

Ranks
The dragons organize themselves into ranks based on species and relative power. The colors in the various charts show which rank the various dragons are.

{table=head]Rank|Name|Description
1|Kobold|This rank is the lowest of the low, and includes the masses of kobolds.
2|Lesser dragons|Smaller dragons and/or those with poison; high ranking kobolds make it here, too.
3|Drakes/Hatchlings|Drakes, as well as the youngest true dragons are this rank. Includes powerful kobolds.
4|Greater dragons/Young dragons|All the powerful species of dragons that are not true dragons; also includes “teenaged” true dragons, and the highest ranked kobolds.
5|Linnorms/Old dragons|The powerful linnorms and some of the older true dragons have this rank.
6|Elder dragons|The leaders of the dragon army, only ancient or older trues have this rank.[/table]

These ranks generally take into account CR and individual power, but not always. The jabberwocky, for instance, is CR 23 and one of the most powerful dragons in the army, but it’s still only Rank 4.

Kobolds
The kobolds are the grunt troops of the dragon army. There are a lot of them, but most of them are level 1, wielding mundane equipment. The kobolds are of all levels 1 – 20, but only have the following classes: expert, warrior, rogue, fighter, gunslinger, and sorcerer. They’re split up like so:

{table=head]Level|Total Number|Experts|Warriors|Rogues|Fighters|Gunslinger s|Sorcerers
1|1,962,480|735,930|735,930|163,540|163,540|81,770 |81,770
2|37,808|14,179|14,179|3,150|3,150|1,575|1,575
3|31,280|11,731|11,731|2,606|2,606|1,303|1,303
4|22,224|8,334|8,334|1,852|1,852|926|926
5|11,111|4,167|4,167|926|926|463|462
6|7,317|1,830|1,830|1,220|1,219|609|609
7|5,691|1,423|1,423|949|948|474|474
8|4,336|1,085|1,085|722|722|361|361
9|3,252|813|813|542|542|271|271
10|2,439|610|610|407|406|203|203
11|1,897|238|237|474|474|237|237
12|1,626|204|204|406|406|203|203
13|1,355|170|170|339|338|169|169
14|1,084|136|136|271|271|135|135
15|813|102|102|204|203|101|101
16|813|0|0|272|271|135|135
17|542|0|0|181|181|90|90
18|542|0|0|181|181|90|90
19|271|0|0|91|90|45|45
20|271|0|0|91|90|45|45[/table]

Approximately 75% of the warriors and fighters are melee focused and the rest are ranged (either bows or crossbows), while 50% of the experts and rogues are melee focused. The sorcerers all have the draconic bloodline, from a chromatic dragon. The kobolds have standard equipment for a character of their level. However, once they cross through the portal, they can’t get any additional equipment unless they can craft it themselves, or find it in our world. Obviously since they have gunslingers, they’ve discovered the rudiments of gunpowder, but only the beginnings of the technology. However, that could mean they could learn from any of our technology that they gets their claws on!

Arrival

The dragons move through the portal in a specific way. I’m not sure if it’s because the portal is designed that way, or because they’re timing it that way, or what. They just do :smalltongue: . The portal remains open until all the true dragons are through, which takes a total of 130 hours, or just about 5-and-a-half days. The rest of the species move through quadratically, so after 10% of the time has passed (13 hours), 1% of that species has passed through, 4% after twice that, 9% after three times, etc., until 100% have passed through by the time the portal closes. I have more tables that show how many of each has passed through after each interval, should you feel it’s important (I like tables :smalltongue:).

THE PORTAL
The dragons arrive through a portal that leads from their world to ours. The portal has several properties:

First, it functions like a Stargate – it is one-way, and you cannot see what is happening on the other side. The dragons can’t send information through from their world, nor receive it from ours. The portal also cannot be closed until its time is up. That means that all of the dragons are coming through, and any that are not killed will remain in our world, even if they lose.

Second, magic that passes through the portal is scrambled for a short time. Active spells and supernatural abilities are negated. Any creatures or magic items that pass through have their supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, and spells suppressed for a number of rounds equal to 30 – the caster level (or HD, if no caster level) of the effect or ability.

So, for a short time after moving through, most of the dragons will be more vulnerable than normal, without magical attacks to rely on (especially breath weapons), and without supernatural protections, such as DR/magic to blunt attacks. The dragons are aware of this, but the stupider species might forget, and some might not care (like the tatzlwyrms and wyverns, who have no magical abilities).

So, given the (unnecessarily detailed) situation above, how does this play out? What is the dragon’s plan, and how does it change once they learn about our technology? How do the humans react? How does a different beginning location change the outcome? Tell me what you think!

~Phoenix~

Xervous

2013-01-03, 05:59 PM

dragons win. Even if humanity succeeded in fighting the resulting war, the older true dragons would be smart enough to hide across the world in human form.

Hundred years later, they will have control of every major country. given that the highest level human on earth isn't likely to be above 6th level, there will be little to stop dragons with access to spells like dominate monster or mass dominate.

Which is why you always send a few guys to the place you are going to invade, well, at least a hundred years before so you can prepare for the actual invasion.

This is of course, discounting the abstract nature of ludicrously high mental ability scores. 30 intelligence is utterly ridiculous and likely corresponds to an IQ too high to be measured.

docnessuno

2013-01-03, 06:26 PM

I think that 45 lvl 20 sorcerers alone would pose a significant threat to the modern world.

Xervous

2013-01-03, 06:29 PM

vewy twoo

windwall vs. modern firearms I wonder...

Malroth

2013-01-03, 06:39 PM

they'd send a few shock troopers through, watch them Die, accurately conclude that we can ignore their DR/AC/Spell resistance and Breath weapons but have jack diddily and squat for defenses against Illusions, shapechanging or Mind controling spells so their second wave would look like us and talk like us and take over without a shot being fired.

Erik Vale

2013-01-03, 06:41 PM

They have plane shift, and someone somewhere has a 'A 20th level, your not capturing a level 20 wizard, your capturing-' sig. It is of extreme relevance. I mean, thy are basically doing a (surprisingly stupid) all out assault, expect them to have every anti-death contingency they can think of with an IQ over a bijjilion.
And, as someone said, real life would seem to be of E6 standards.

The question is, does this spontaneously change with the presence of magic, as our unproven gods and lack of magic changes, because this plane seems to have a permanent anti-all magic trait. Otherwise, I see god [Which god I'm not sure, because I don't know what god is real] smacks the dragons down. For example, if it was the christian/catholic/insert similar here, we have a Omnicient/Omnipotent being, who will curb stomp the dragons as soon as he feels like it. [The question is when however].
Also, the christian diety doesn't exempt other deities from being true [I think], he says simply that "you will worship no other god before me, for I am a jealous god" [Or something similar], so you can add in even more gods... [But I will concede that there probably is a "I am the one true god" verse somewhere.]

Jack_Simth

2013-01-03, 07:12 PM

Depends. On a rather lot of things. So I'm going to make categories for the ones I see:

First: Mechanics translation difficulties: How are you going to model the damage from human weapons onto the dragons? How are you going to model the PF attack damage onto the humans? Are humans limited by the PF distance penalties to perception DC's? It's entirely possible for a modern human to headshot someone with a fifty calibre round from two miles away (or more) with the right equipment and training... but the Perception DC goes up by +1 per ten feet of distance (well, half that for True Dragons...), and it would take a pretty optimized dragon to see that sniper even a mile away (DC 274 or so). And a headshot from a .50 caliber round will kill... pretty much anything earthly, probably just about anything else, too. Likewise: OK, what does 2d6 fire damage actually mean to a human?

Second: Paranoia level/willingness to suffer losses/optimization level on both sides. For instance, if the humans drop a gigaton nuke on New York as soon as the last of the dragons are through the portal, and the dragons haven't scattered pretty thoroughly by that point, then the dragons are all dead (OK, the ones with Rings of Evasion who rolled 20's might not be if they get away before the radiation kills them, but the rest are). If the Dragons are making use of one of a number of invulnerability tricks available via spells that are inherited from D&D, then the humans lose.

Third: Planning level. The Dragons have a fairly clear advantage here, as they're attacking; they may not know what they're up against, but they know they're up against something; unless they get cocky, they can just send a few dragons through, disguised as humans, to prepare the way, then go into quiet seclusion somewhere, infiltrate the humans, and THEN take over. Your listed setup is... not quite so useful.

Toliudar

2013-01-03, 07:14 PM

While I agree that the old+ dragons and kobold sorcerers are probably enough to simply take over as soon as they figure out that it's going to be easier to work unnoticed, what I find most appealing about this scenario is the sheer chaos wrought by unleashing half a million pseudodragons in the world. Given their ability to hide and their telepathic communication, these critters can potentially convince the entire population of a city that they're going crazy, just by curling up in a chimney and telepathically chatting with everyone within 60'.

artofregicide

2013-01-03, 07:51 PM

Okay, I love this idea. A previous thread addressed it, I believe asking about what kind of D&D monster would be most dangerous in the human world, and setting up a situation 8 years after the D&D world (whichever setting) and ours had collided.

The idea of Dragons fighting fighter jets, kobolds scavenging sniper rifles into terrifying new contraptions and drakes rampaging through the streets of our world is just beautiful. :smallbiggrin:

Okay, the first thing is: The invasion plan doesn't sound like Dragons. I mean, being hyper-intelligent, ancient creatures wouldn't just throw themselves like cannon fodder into the unknown.

Secondly, I'm not sure how any magic effect could suddenly make dragons not be able to breath fire, or have thick skin, but not prevent them from flying (despite completely ignoring *fudging* the laws of physics?)

From the numbers you've given, the Dragons would completely overrun us simply on the basis of combined quality and quantity of soldiers. Yes, there are 7 billionish people in the world, but only 20 million are members of official armed services (Numbers from quick Google search). Even if you account for the number of weapons in the world, the fact is the vast majority of humans would be little match for a kobold warrior or sorcerer, much less a full fledged dragon.

Interestingly, an alternative to the "Must send ALL the Dragons through a portal in a short period of time" is that the Dragons can only send a small force, blind, through a Portal, but in order to bring more forces through, they must establish more Portals on our side of the world. I guess that defeats the purpose of your single portal invasion.

That said, if you dump 2 million kobolds, plus boatloads of dragonoids and actual elder dragons, well... it'd make the 7 Hour War (HL2) look long.

The only hope the humans have of winning is bottle-necking the Dragons, and that's shot if even one powerful dragon gets away (as mentioned in posts before). Oh, and the 45 lvl 20 sorcerers? Uh... 6+ lvl 9 spells a day? LVL 9 spells?

Okay, that's my rant.

For all my detraction: your idea is cool. The fact you plotted out the exact numbers, levels, and creatures is super cool. You've put a lot of thought into this. I'm just saying: 1/10th that many would slaughter us. Probably 1/100th or 1/1000th, it'd just take exponentially longer.

-Cheers!

Absol197

2013-01-03, 11:10 PM

Alright, it looks like I need to explain some things about my scenario!

vewy twoo

windwall vs. modern firearms I wonder...

I would think that windwall wouldn't be very effective against firearms. The unexpected wind might, in the beginning, prevent a shooter's rounds from hitting the expected target, but the bullets would still get through. If the wall lasts long enough, I suspect most skilled sharpshooters could compensate for it eventually.

they'd send a few shock troopers through, watch them Die, accurately conclude that we can ignore their DR/AC/Spell resistance and Breath weapons but have jack diddily and squat for defenses against Illusions, shapechanging or Mind controling spells so their second wave would look like us and talk like us and take over without a shot being fired.

The dragons can't see anything going on on the other side of the portal. Any observations about our technology, tactics, and abilities have to be made by those already in our world, and can only be communicated to those that pass through (which is why the big, important generals come last; they get to have their underlings do the trial and error, then the survivors tell them about it).

They have plane shift, and someone somewhere has a 'A 20th level, your not capturing a level 20 wizard, your capturing-' sig. It is of extreme relevance. I mean, thy are basically doing a (surprisingly stupid) all out assault, expect them to have every anti-death contingency they can think of with an IQ over a bijjilion.
And, as someone said, real life would seem to be of E6 standards.

Remember, sorcerers aren't wizards. They'll have 4 9th-level spells known, one of which is wish. Now, you might say, "Oooh, wish, they've got it made!" But the expensive diamond component has to either come from their Wealth-by-Level, or has to be found here. And no active wishes can come through.

As for the reason for their assault being the way it is: this portal isn't of their creation - they don't control how long it's open or where it opens up to, and they aren't ever getting another one. And as mentioned, they can't perceive on the other side. They don't know if the portal is opening up in the middle of a barracks (where they might immediately need to fight), the center of a park (where they could use stealth), or the middle of a popular thoroughfare (where any dragons coming through would be noticed immediately by a lot of people). However, they do know that they're in the middle of a city, and that if the humans mount a resistance (which they can't know how well they could do), it would become a bottleneck with their strongest members (Without their magic) would get cut down. They need to secure the area around the portal at least until everyone is through, and then they can begin more subtle strategies.

The question is, does this spontaneously change with the presence of magic, as our unproven gods and lack of magic changes, because this plane seems to have a permanent anti-all magic trait. Otherwise, I see god [Which god I'm not sure, because I don't know what god is real] smacks the dragons down. For example, if it was the christian/catholic/insert similar here, we have a Omnicient/Omnipotent being, who will curb stomp the dragons as soon as he feels like it. [The question is when however].
Also, the christian diety doesn't exempt other deities from being true , he says simply that "you will worship no other god before me, for I am a jealous god" [Or something similar], so you can add in even more gods... [But I will concede that there probably is a "I am the one true god" verse somewhere.]

For this, let's say that our world has always had magic (and a lot of the legends and stories we know are actually true, to some extent), but the way to use it has become lost. Out deities might actually exist, but they're like the ones from the Lord of the Rings: they affect our world by subtly guiding the people in it, and there's a limit to how much they can interfere (for whatever reason). We can get divine help, and even learn magic from the invaders, potentially, but we're not going to have deities come stomping down from the Heavens saying, "NO! Bad dragons, sit! Stay!"

Depends. On a rather lot of things. So I'm going to make categories for the ones I see:

First: Mechanics translation difficulties: How are you going to model the damage from human weapons onto the dragons? How are you going to model the PF attack damage onto the humans? Are humans limited by the PF distance penalties to perception DC's? It's entirely possible for a modern human to headshot someone with a fifty calibre round from two miles away (or more) with the right equipment and training... but the Perception DC goes up by +1 per ten feet of distance (well, half that for True Dragons...), and it would take a pretty optimized dragon to see that sniper even a mile away (DC 274 or so). And a headshot from a .50 caliber round will kill... pretty much anything earthly, probably just about anything else, too. Likewise: OK, what does 2d6 fire damage actually mean to a human?

I've always seen the Perception DCs as those necessary to notice details, and unless something actually has cover or concealment (or is actively trying to hide), it's not that you can't see them if you fail, it's that you can't make out details, or pick them out of the background. Also, sniper's scopes would grant a massive bonus to checks to see a distance, which would help, and have an incredible range increment.

As for other mechanical conversions, I typically don't see the numbers as being the important part (which might seem strange, given how much I crunched numbers for this), but merely as a means to express something using a much more simplistic "physics engine." For instance, I wouldn't say, "Oh, but the listed damage value for that gun is this, and the dragon has this many hit points, so it's still just fine and can destroy the sniper." Instead, if there's a conflict, I'd use real-life as the guide.

Obviously, this doesn't work in all cases (otherwise the bigger dragons wouldn't be able to exist, much less fly), but in general. So a big gun hitting a great wyrm in the eye would likely kill it, or at least severly wound it. And it wouldn't be recovering too quickly, and its actions would be hampered. As for damage conversions, let's use how they affect objects as a good baseline, and then extrapolate that to other things.

For instance, wood has hardness 5. A red wyrmling's breath deals 2d10 fire damage. Minimum is 2, average is 11, and maximum is 20. SO being caught on the edge of that blast wouldn't ignite or even damage wood, a typical hit would damage and likely ignite a tree branch (or other wooden object), while the most damage it could do would do a lot of damage. For steel (hardness 10, half damage from fire) though, even taking the most damage it could from the baby dragon's breath wouldn't be enough to damage steel. So for that dragon's breath, it's hot enough to potentially severely char and ignite even wet wood, but not quite hot enough to really harm steel, at least for the brief time of exposure.

A great wyrm (24d10 fire; min. 24, avg. 132, max. 240), on the other hand, is a whole different story. Even being caught on the very edge of his blast is enough to begin to warp or melt steel from the heat, and being in the center of the blast is probably hot enough to melt through a bank vault door (4 inches of steel) in the second or two of contact. How would that affect a person :smallwink: ?

Second: Paranoia level/willingness to suffer losses/optimization level on both sides. For instance, if the humans drop a gigaton nuke on New York as soon as the last of the dragons are through the portal, and the dragons haven't scattered pretty thoroughly by that point, then the dragons are all dead (OK, the ones with Rings of Evasion who rolled 20's might not be if they get away before the radiation kills them, but the rest are). If the Dragons are making use of one of a number of invulnerability tricks available via spells that are inherited from D&D, then the humans lose.

I think nukes are likely out. Most governments wouldn't do that. Unless we could figure out the dragon's deployment and time limit in time (130 hours), we'd have no way to know when it ends. Unless of course S.H.I.E.L.D. really is running the world, in which case, this is over quickly :smallsmile: . Let's also ax the invulnerability tricks - the dragons already have enough advantages.

Third: Planning level. The Dragons have a fairly clear advantage here, as they're attacking; they may not know what they're up against, but they know they're up against something; unless they get cocky, they can just send a few dragons through, disguised as humans, to prepare the way, then go into quiet seclusion somewhere, infiltrate the humans, and THEN take over. Your listed setup is... not quite so useful.

I know the setup I have isn't useful. The idea is, these 5-1/2 days are all the dragons get, and they never get another chance (maybe their world is dying, or their sun exploding, so they have to leave, and this is the last lifeboat out). They need to get everybody through in that timeframe, and the chances of them being subtle are directly dependant on where, when, and how they arrive. They probably would like to be subtle (at least the big, elder dragons would), but they may not get that chance.

While I agree that the old+ dragons and kobold sorcerers are probably enough to simply take over as soon as they figure out that it's going to be easier to work unnoticed, what I find most appealing about this scenario is the sheer chaos wrought by unleashing half a million pseudodragons in the world. Given their ability to hide and their telepathic communication, these critters can potentially convince the entire population of a city that they're going crazy, just by curling up in a chimney and telepathically chatting with everyone within 60'.

:smallbiggrin: The faerie dragons have telepathy, too. Out to 100 feet, even, plus greater invisibility 3/day, and sorcerer 2 casting, focusing on illusions and other tricks. They'd be even better at it! Imagine them combined with the pseudodragons...

Okay, the first thing is: The invasion plan doesn't sound like Dragons. I mean, being hyper-intelligent, ancient creatures wouldn't just throw themselves like cannon fodder into the unknown.

Secondly, I'm not sure how any magic effect could suddenly make dragons not be able to breath fire, or have thick skin, but not prevent them from flying (despite completely ignoring *fudging* the laws of physics?)

A dragon's damage reduction isn't the natural toughness of their hide and scales; that's their natural armor. The damage reduction is a magical reinforcement of that toughness, which comes from the power infused in them. If that power gets scrambled around a lot, it'll take a few moments until it gets set back right. And I believe I've covered why the dragons might be invading in this particular fashion a couple of times, yes? Another reason might be as a trick: they have the hordes of kobolds and drakes, and the big tanks that are the linnorms make a big show of destroying everything around, while the true dragons and the smaller dragons (pseudodragons and faerie dragons) begin the real attack on the side, with everything going exactly as planned :smallamused: ... But what is that plan, precious? That's what we're here to debate!

From the numbers you've given, the Dragons would completely overrun us simply on the basis of combined quality and quantity of soldiers. Yes, there are 7 billionish people in the world, but only 20 million are members of official armed services (Numbers from quick Google search). Even if you account for the number of weapons in the world, the fact is the vast majority of humans would be little match for a kobold warrior or sorcerer, much less a full fledged dragon.

Ah, but a single person, armed with todays technology, can be a powerful force. There's only about 3 million dragons total, and over two-thirds of that are kobolds. The average person wouldn't be a match, yes, but a single police officer with a handgun could easily take down one or two warriors armed with swords or spears, and protected only by hide armor. Soldiers in tanks could just roll over hundreds, until something big came by to stop them (or a wyrmling underwold dragon used its adamantine claws to burrow through the tank's belly...). Plus, I think even the biggest linnorms would have trouble with fighter jets. They're so fast and have great range. Until a smart dragon decides the only way to deal with them is to find out where they "roost" and attack them while they're resting, fighter jets would be able to take down hundreds of flyers per jet that's destroyed.

Of course, that doesn't help with the fact that linnorms have regeneration, or that there's a lot of magic on the dragon's side. I personally think that it's a pretty fair fight. That's part of the reason I focused the invasion in one spot, where it's likely to get noticed quickly, to give the humans time to react before all the big stuff shows up, to make it a bit more even. If all the dragons have to come from the same place, and spread out from there, that limits their stategic options, which, considering their intelligence and magical abilities, is something the humans need.

Interestingly, an alternative to the "Must send ALL the Dragons through a portal in a short period of time" is that the Dragons can only send a small force, blind, through a Portal, but in order to bring more forces through, they must establish more Portals on our side of the world. I guess that defeats the purpose of your single portal invasion.

I like it! Alternate scenario - what's different? I think it puts things more in the dragons' camp, because the bigger (and therefore more important ones) have a greater chance to hide and begin planning, like they surely want to.

That said, if you dump 2 million kobolds, plus boatloads of dragonoids and actual elder dragons, well... it'd make the 7 Hour War (HL2) look long.

Well, you have to consider speed. The fastest dragon, the great gold wyrm, can fly at a speed of about 200 miles per hour, if he took the Run feat. That's slower than a 747, and he can't keep it up for long. To get across the world? The biggest part of the invasion will be slow, because most of them can't fly that fast. And while teleportation exists, they have limited access to it, and the number of passengers that can bring is limited by size (a single 20th-level caster can only bring one Huge passenger and one Large passenger with them). Yes, powerful dragons could pop around the world (assuming they have greater teleport), but they'd be doing it mostly by themselves, and they'd have to hope that they don't run into any of our big guns. I don't think the leaders of the dragons would risk it, once they've seen what some of our weapons can do.

Plus, three million troops, even powerful dragons, spread across the entire globe is spread pretty thin. I definitely think that the first couple countries encountered (the US and Canada) are properly screwed, but Central Europe and Asia will have a while before an actual assault can be launched on them. Of course, by that time the elder dragons can start having plans go into effect, but it'll be by no means swift.

For all my detraction: your idea is cool. The fact you plotted out the exact numbers, levels, and creatures is super cool. You've put a lot of thought into this. I'm just saying: 1/10th that many would slaughter us. Probably 1/100th or 1/1000th, it'd just take exponentially longer.

-Cheers!

Thanks! I'm still not convinced (and I'm saying this as someone who very much prefers magic and "the old ways" to technology and modernity), but that's what discussion is for, right?

[I]~Phoenix~

GreatWyrmGold

2013-01-03, 11:20 PM

Even 10 great wyrms, one of each time, would put up a damn good fight.

DR 20/magic renders them immune to pretty much everything short of artillery and missiles, which Wind Wall might negate. Even if not, healing (whether by magic spells or magic items or whatever) would swiftly heal this damage and any damage dealt in the first -6 (white) through -11 (gold) seconds (e.g. none) before they could be killed. Meanwhile, spells available to 13th-19th-level sorcerers who can use some cleric spells, such as:

Wall of Iron, Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, the various mass buffing spells, Disintegration, Tenser's Transformation, Animate Objects, Heal, Word of Recall, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Greater Scrying, Mass Hold Person, Forcecage, Mass Invisibility, Control Weather, Ethereal Jaunt, Limited Wish, Blasphemy, Regenerate, Repulsion, Refuge, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Maze, Demand, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy, Screen, Clone, Create Greater Undead, Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object, Temporal Stasis, Unholy Aura, Earthquake, Greater Planar Ally, Symbol of Death, Imprisonment, Gate, Foresight, Dominate Monster, Meteor Swarm, Spapechange, Time Stop, Mass Heal, Implosion, Storm of Vengeance, Wish, and Miracle.

which are bad enough when used by a sole wizard against monsters with their party of non- or different casters, but when you've got 10 of them, invulnerable to all but the mightiest of attacks, as well as pretty fast and possessing other abilities, against creatures who have never heard of magic, that's earth-shattering. Literally.

When you throw in a lot more dragons of all types, there's no hope for humanity.

Psyren

2013-01-04, 12:01 AM

Remember, sorcerers aren't wizards. They'll have 4 9th-level spells known, one of which is wish. Now, you might say, "Oooh, wish, they've got it made!" But the expensive diamond component has to either come from their Wealth-by-Level, or has to be found here. And no active wishes can come through.

The main way to get around wish's cost is still intact in Pathfinder, i.e. planar bind some efreeti or glabrezu or something. Planar Binding carries no components, though making the trap more secure does incur some costs - but these are near-epic dragons we're talking about, not squishy mortals, so they have less to fear from the fiends in question.

Your OP doesn't make it clear whether any summoning or calling spells are allowed for the dragons. If not, Wish is likely off the table too as it is prohibitively expensive, and of course so is Gate, but there's still plenty they can do to to make the muggles' lives miserable. You've allowed the dragons to planar travel, which means they can Astrally Project, making them nearly impossible to kill. Fabricate and the Creation spells give them access to our technology, or at a bare minimum chemical weapons. Illusions and Polymorphing make them a nightmare to find or fight in a populated area, not to mention the kind of havoc they can wreak with Enchantment, and while we're at it let's throw Divination on there so they can figure out our plans before we do. Finally, even if they can't summon disposable minions, there's always Necromancy so they can use us for that purpose instead.

artofregicide

2013-01-04, 12:25 AM

So, I was going to write a big long reply about mechanics and stuff. I'll sum it up with: Magic in D&D is not balanced to function in the real world, and also Apocalypse from the Sky 6+charisma times a day. (Lvl 20 sorcerer)

So, to answer your actual question: PLANS!

0 HOUR

The white Dragons arrive first, pretty much spat out into the middle of unsuspecting Manhattan. Poor yanks, don't stand a chance.

I assume that they are "delivered" with a sizeable force of Kobolds, mostly taking a scouting role or defending the beachhead.

It doesn't take long for people to notice. At best, the Kobolds can silence any screams for a few minutes. A massive, lumbering Dragon is hard to miss.

The Dragons immediately take defensive positions, whilst some of the Kobolds, Fairy Dragons, Pseudodragons, and any other troublemakers immediately spread out in all directions to either hide or cause chaos.

After all, the Dragons can't possible hope to use stealth in a large city, with their magic immediately hampered.

They do have a contingency that should their first troops appear in a depopulated or quite area, their forces will resort to stealth tactics as long as possible. But knowing Manhattan, there aren't that many places like that. And without magic to assist them, a Great Wyrm in Broadway is going to cause a stir.

The Dragons and their kin do not kill indiscriminately, but eliminate threats as quickly as possible. The weapons and gear and bodies of fallen humans are given to a crack team of Kobold researchers (later to be headed by Dragons) who begin figuring out our weapons, armor, technology, etc.

Regardless, it's a mess for everyone involved. The police, national guard (what few are in NY), and vigilantes take pot-shots at the Dragons, but taking the Portal is far beyond them. Holding their ground itself is an accomplishment. There simply isn't enough firepower to stop them (handguns, shotguns, even assault rifles don't do much against dragon hide)

But obviously, the Pentagon and White House are informed almost immediately, and react about as fast. Jets are scrambled, troops assembled, and the counter attack begins within an hour or two. At first, the military seems to be able to contain the situation, but they don't strike quickly enough, spend too much time assessing the situation (though their airstrikes do wipe out several groups leaving the portal).

All this time, wave after wave of reinforcements arrive. And each time the military implements a new strategy, the Dragonic army changes it's tactics, on a macro level adapting much like the Borg. And the Kobolds quickly figure out how to use our weapons, particularly small arms. Suddenly we're fighting an enemy that no longer uses spears and bows, but our own weaponry. Admittedly, they aren't quite as proficient as we are (probably something about exotic weapon in there)

With 2 hours, the whole world knows what is going on, and several breeds of Dragon are through. They've set up a commmand base deep underground, and are already making plans to initiate the next phases of the invasion. As well, they've done their best (magically) to shield the Portal area so that the airstrikes and artillery won't wipe them out as they go through. Magically dominated/charmed humans are spitting out as much information as they can to frantic Kobold experts.

At this point (2 hours in) the human plan is containment, as they have no idea that the scale of the invasion. In fact, it's difficult to get a good look at what is happening on the ground (illusions > satellites). Those forces they send in are as much tactical recon as actual combat. We're fighting a completely unknown and unexpected foe.

The Dragon plan is consolidation, and infiltration. Armed with new-found knowledge, the Dragons send out a small but capable force to escape into the countryside and blend into the surroundings. A long term goal. The rest of their forces bunker down outside the Portal, using abjuration and illusion to keep the Portal as safe as possible, and getting as many of the newcomers to cover as possible.

At this point, the fight is still in human favor, but the balance is tipping.

Anyone feel free to continue from where I left off. Absol197, if you don't like where I'm going with this, by all means, stop it :smallsmile:

Absol197

2013-01-04, 08:42 AM

Your OP doesn't make it clear whether any summoning or calling spells are allowed for the dragons. If not, Wish is likely off the table too as it is prohibitively expensive, and of course so is Gate, but there's still plenty they can do to to make the muggles' lives miserable. You've allowed the dragons to planar travel, which means they can Astrally Project, making them nearly impossible to kill. Fabricate and the Creation spells give them access to our technology, or at a bare minimum chemical weapons. Illusions and Polymorphing make them a nightmare to find or fight in a populated area, not to mention the kind of havoc they can wreak with Enchantment, and while we're at it let's throw Divination on there so they can figure out our plans before we do. Finally, even if they can't summon disposable minions, there's always Necromancy so they can use us for that purpose instead.

Let's say summoning works, but calling doesn't. Summoning doesn't bring the actual creature, so the switch on Material Plane doesn't matter. Calling does, and since every creature is "attuned" to a specific Material Plane, we'll say the vast majority of extraplanar creatures are attuned to a different one. One of the perks of being from our world, I guess :smallsmile: . The other things are clear advantages, however.

So, I was going to write a big long reply about mechanics and stuff. I'll sum it up with: Magic in D&D is not balanced to function in the real world, and also Apocalypse from the Sky 6+charisma times a day. (Lvl 20 sorcerer)

So, to answer your actual question: PLANS!

0 HOUR

The white Dragons arrive first, pretty much spat out into the middle of unsuspecting Manhattan. Poor yanks, don't stand a chance.

I assume that they are "delivered" with a sizeable force of Kobolds, mostly taking a scouting role or defending the beachhead.

It doesn't take long for people to notice. At best, the Kobolds can silence any screams for a few minutes. A massive, lumbering Dragon is hard to miss.

The Dragons immediately take defensive positions, whilst some of the Kobolds, Fairy Dragons, Pseudodragons, and any other troublemakers immediately spread out in all directions to either hide or cause chaos.

After all, the Dragons can't possible hope to use stealth in a large city, with their magic immediately hampered.

They do have a contingency that should their first troops appear in a depopulated or quite area, their forces will resort to stealth tactics as long as possible. But knowing Manhattan, there aren't that many places like that. And without magic to assist them, a Great Wyrm in Broadway is going to cause a stir.

The Dragons and their kin do not kill indiscriminately, but eliminate threats as quickly as possible. The weapons and gear and bodies of fallen humans are given to a crack team of Kobold researchers (later to be headed by Dragons) who begin figuring out our weapons, armor, technology, etc.

Regardless, it's a mess for everyone involved. The police, national guard (what few are in NY), and vigilantes take pot-shots at the Dragons, but taking the Portal is far beyond them. Holding their ground itself is an accomplishment. There simply isn't enough firepower to stop them (handguns, shotguns, even assault rifles don't do much against dragon hide)

But obviously, the Pentagon and White House are informed almost immediately, and react about as fast. Jets are scrambled, troops assembled, and the counter attack begins within an hour or two. At first, the military seems to be able to contain the situation, but they don't strike quickly enough, spend too much time assessing the situation (though their airstrikes do wipe out several groups leaving the portal).

All this time, wave after wave of reinforcements arrive. And each time the military implements a new strategy, the Dragonic army changes it's tactics, on a macro level adapting much like the Borg. And the Kobolds quickly figure out how to use our weapons, particularly small arms. Suddenly we're fighting an enemy that no longer uses spears and bows, but our own weaponry. Admittedly, they aren't quite as proficient as we are (probably something about exotic weapon in there)

With 2 hours, the whole world knows what is going on, and several breeds of Dragon are through. They've set up a commmand base deep underground, and are already making plans to initiate the next phases of the invasion. As well, they've done their best (magically) to shield the Portal area so that the airstrikes and artillery won't wipe them out as they go through. Magically dominated/charmed humans are spitting out as much information as they can to frantic Kobold experts.

At this point (2 hours in) the human plan is containment, as they have no idea that the scale of the invasion. In fact, it's difficult to get a good look at what is happening on the ground (illusions > satellites). Those forces they send in are as much tactical recon as actual combat. We're fighting a completely unknown and unexpected foe.

The Dragon plan is consolidation, and infiltration. Armed with new-found knowledge, the Dragons send out a small but capable force to escape into the countryside and blend into the surroundings. A long term goal. The rest of their forces bunker down outside the Portal, using abjuration and illusion to keep the Portal as safe as possible, and getting as many of the newcomers to cover as possible.

At this point, the fight is still in human favor, but the balance is tipping.

Anyone feel free to continue from where I left off. Absol197, if you don't like where I'm going with this, by all means, stop it :smallsmile:

Most of what I'm going to say here is conversation, not OP-control, so feel free to disagree :smallsmile: . But this first bit is doing some maths...

After two hours, the grand total of troops through the portal will be:
{table=head]Number|Species
497|Kobolds
144|White wyrmlings
124|Pseudodragons
121|Very young white dragons
100|Young white dragons
81|Juvenile white dragons
64|Young adult white dragons
62|Faerie dragons, tatzlwyrms
49|Adult white dragons
31|River drakes, tidepool dragons
20|Mature adult white dragons
15|Forest drakes
7|Flame drakes
3|Sea drakes, wyverns
1|Dracolisk, frost drake[/table]
Color indicates size (Tiny, Small, Medium, and Large), italics indicates casting ability.

That's a grand total of about 1,400. Which is a lot, granted, but they're also mostly smaller; only 430 are Medium size or larger. And, most difficult for your scenario, only 160 are casters, maxing out at caster level 4, just barely breaking 2nd-level spells (and the typical tidepool dragon will only know slipstream; hardly very useful). The great white wyrm isn't going to arrive for another 4-1/2 hours.

This is all ignoring what kobolds the dragons choose to send through. This, I think, is the most interesting question of the early deployment. Do they send through their more powerful (and irreplaceable) higher level sorcerers first, or do they lead with mid-level or low-level kobolds? Higher level casters could help establish a safe-zone around the portal for the rest to come through, but even their most powerful will be without magic for the first minute, meaning if the portal is in a place where they're being attacked immediately (which as far as they know, it could be), they might end up losing some of their most powerful assets before things really get going.

However, even with the limited spellcasting available (ignoring kobolds once again), the dragons do have the ability to protect their entrance a little: most of the tidepool dragons know obscuring mist, and the juvenile and older whites have fog cloud at will. They could blanket a ring around the portal with fog, in order to conceal how many of them are coming through. Pseudodragons and faerie dragons would make great scouts, I think: both are very small and adept at hiding, and can communicate telepathically. A few lines of them spreading out in different directions (growing longer and getting more branches as more come through) could become an information line to the portal, as long as each member is within telepathy range of the next in the line. Plus, pseudodragons could sting people who discover them or prove a problem, possibly knocking them out for up to 10 minutes.

What do you think?

~Phoenix~

EDIT: One additional thing to consider is that one of a dragon's weaknesses is its vanity. They're the most powerful creatures on the world they come from, and humans are one of the weakest. They might not consider that our technological (or magical) abilities would be beyond what would be present in a standard-setting Pathfinder/D&D game: humans are stupid, weak, and short-lived compared to them, so how could they come up with anything more complex? Therefore, any plan they've put together would be based on that assumption, meaning they might spend time pointlessly shielding themselves from magical detection, and even the smartest dragons going through are going to expect to be met with swords, spells, and arrows, not bullets, missiles, tanks, and planes. They will definitely be able to adapt to our technology, but would they send a squad of expert kobolds through first to analyze it, when they already think their technology and magic is superior (they're right on the magic part, but definitely not on the technology part)?

Vaz

2013-01-04, 09:53 AM

I don't knkw Pathfinder. 3.5 wise though... All it would take is a single Advanced/Epic Dragon; a Force/Prismatic/Time Dragon Great Wyrm would close the world off.

Time Dragon with At Will Timestop (1rnd Cooldown) for example?

As for what they'd do; check out Reign of Fire; its not exactly factual, but a single Huge (?) Dragon there without access to magic (but able to procreate faster than a Half Rabbit State-Benefits abuser) was able to destroy any strengths of the modern world, despite being picked up in London.

Against Fast Jets, Dragons just need to Scry, then Fly/Burrow/teleport into said base. As a quick aside, I wonder how many Advanced Dragons (possibly including Character Classes) it would take to capsize, or even pick up an aircraft carrier in their claws.

An MBT at 80 Tons would be bad enough.

As for other similar occurences; look at Rise of the Planet of the Apes and Avatar for Intelligent Low Tech versus Intelligent High Tech. This time, though, they have Magic and can Breath Fire/Lightning/Acid/Poison Gas/Wind Storms/Aging Breath/Concussive Force/Prismatic Beams/Snowstorms/Scalding Water.

One thing though; it would make a cracking movie.

Absol197

2013-01-04, 10:15 AM

I don't knkw Pathfinder. 3.5 wise though... All it would take is a single Advanced/Epic Dragon; a Force/Prismatic/Time Dragon Great Wyrm would close the world off.

Time Dragon with At Will Timestop (1rnd Cooldown) for example?

No force, prismatic, or time dragons. Everything that's showing up is listed in the OP (I don't have all the links in yet, but the general idea is there).

As for what they'd do; check out Reign of Fire; its not exactly factual, but a single Huge (?) Dragon there without access to magic (but able to procreate faster than a Half Rabbit State-Benefits abuser) was able to destroy any strengths of the modern world, despite being picked up in London.

Reign of Fire was actually one of my inspirations for this idea! You actually mentioned the problem with the comparison: the rate at which the dragons reproduce. While the PF dragons are much more powerful than the RoF dragons, they're expressly limited in number, and it takes decades, even centuries, to raise a new clutch to be anything as strong as their parents. For each one the humans take down here, they score a major victory.

Against Fast Jets, Dragons just need to Scry, then Fly/Burrow/teleport into said base. As a quick aside, I wonder how many Advanced Dragons (possibly including Character Classes) it would take to capsize, or even pick up an aircraft carrier in their claws.

An MBT at 80 Tons would be bad enough.

True, and it's what I would expect would happen once they realize they can't engage jets in the air (unless they sacrifice a swarm of drakes to basically have the jet crash into). They'll be able to find the bases quickly enough, but the problem is getting there. Flying makes them obvious and vulnerable; burrowing takes forever; and teleporting only allows them to transport a small number of troops at once. Getting anything bigger than Huge requires that creature to teleport itself, and that means essentially putting their generals and masterminds on the front lines. Granted, their general is a massive engine of elemental destruction, but it could still be killed by enough tank shells and mortars, and I don't think most older dragons would want to risk that.

As for picking up an aircraft carrier...I don't have an accurate idea of how big they are, but I'm positive that even all the Colossal dragons that show up combined would have a difficult time with it.

As for other similar occurences; look at Rise of the Planet of the Apes and Avatar for Intelligent Low Tech versus Intelligent High Tech. This time, though, they have Magic and can Breath Fire/Lightning/Acid/Poison Gas/Wind Storms/Aging Breath/Concussive Force/Prismatic Beams/Snowstorms/Scalding Water.

That's the rub; there aren't many such things where it's dragons + magic versus humans + technology.

One thing though; it would make a cracking movie.

Yes, yes it would :smallbiggrin: .

~Phoenix~

rweird

2013-01-04, 12:35 PM

Grollub

2013-01-04, 12:49 PM

Sounds like good plans, but you guys are forgetting some things.....

Given the rate at which the draconic army can arrive thru the portal, I would assume they would send scouting dragons ( pseudo, faerie ) thru first, with some "ground troops" and diplomancers sorcerer kobolds.

From there, "A human military tactical response within 2 hours"??? cmon.. pfft..

If I was the dragons, the first troops thru would scout things out, and play the pity role. "omg, our world is dying, we are just trying to escape/refugees, please help us!!". Even that discussion would take a few hours to be between the diplomancers, and human higher ups.

The dragons army, with a limited arrival time, really need to play up a stalling tactic, in my opinion, with anything arriving seeming peaceful/ or just going invisible/ dispersing as best it can.

At some point humans, may get suspicious, but the diplomancy/charm stalls longer. When enough troops are thru, or knowledge learned, the battle can begin.

Even seeing dragons or anything from the draconic army, the humans should really have no clue what they are truly capable of. So even if, during the diplomacy phase they are corralled, I envision maybe cops/ troops in a barricade style guard posts; with no tank/jet support on scene initially.

This means initial human posts overrun, and technology gained by the dragon forces. Human military responses will come, but hopefully the scouts figure some things out, and the dragon forces are ready.

Another thing not mentioned.. not only with charming/dominating... I'm sure some humans would just welcome their new draconic overlords and flip sides. ( ie... how bout a prison/mental hospital population offered freedom to fight for the dragons )

Psyren

2013-01-04, 01:16 PM

So they can summon backup and use necromancy - even low-level slots will create lethal cannon fodder for this purpose. Just one dragon with the right necromancy spells (e.g. Enervation) can Wightocalypse any populated area by himself, opening up a second front behind the defenders and wrecking their supply chains.

One of the most fearsome dragons for this purpose would be Umbral dragons. Ancient and up (14 total in the OP) create shadows under their control with every single kill regardless of how they do it - every fireball, every lightning bolt, every breath weapon makes shadows from our civilians. Given that they are 15th-level sorcerers at a minimum, can shadow walk at-will and each can Finger of Death 3/day - they can very quickly strike any remote populated area on the plane, reduce its population to nothing (we have no way of harming shadows) and shadow walk to the next target, even bringing their minions along if they wish.

—The dragons can breed at whatever rate is normal for their species, but they do not bring any eggs through, which means that it will be years at least before they can start replacing any lost troops.

Why do you say that? They can cast cleric spells too, what's to stop them from healing/raising one another? They would particularly have a vested interest in keeping the Great Wyrms alive.

Joshinthemosh

2013-01-04, 02:10 PM

Not that I have any math backing me up but is there a chance that during this "diplomacy" session that the humans could convince.........really any of those dragon associated creatures to turn to the human side? This research seems like it could go both ways(albeit much MUCH slower that side).

I think the big turning point for the dragons is when does the first nuke go off. Once that first nuke goes everything is suddenly on limits. One nuke begets more nukes. And I don't think that spell resistance stops that.

Absol197

2013-01-04, 02:36 PM

I don't know so much about PF myself, though sending the weaker forces in first is a bad idea. The military will react and set up a kill zone around the portal, overwhelming the first waves, the later waves will lack the magic needed to survive and quickly perish as well, though if you send it in reverse order (Great Wyrm Gold Dragon first, wyrmling white last, they could set up a roost, infiltrate the military as they plot a reaction [without attacking, saying they want to talk], get everyone to talk, giving the full force time to enter the world, learn about humans, infiltrate society, and launch a massive strike to neutralize most military things before anyone can react.)

I think setting up a killzone would be difficult, depending on several factors: first, the portal's location. If it's somewhere out of the way, it would be harder for us to track down the source of all the dragons, allowing more to come in before the zone can be set up. To have an effective kill zone, you can't also be fighting enemy forces around it, so all the main fighting forces of the dragons would have to be neutralized first. However, the smaller ones (pseudodragons/faerie dragons) that were already through would be hard to seek out, and since they're quite stealthy and can communicate telepathically, they could try to organize a way to disrupt the forces surrounding the portal. Not to say it would be very effective, but they could try :smallsmile: .

I suppose diplomacy could be tried with it the way it is, and they stall until the big dragons arrive. If some of the weaker ones are good diplomats, the dragons might be able to act as a coordinated unit with all members available to neutralize the military in a few minutes, before a response can be devised, and send a bunch of dragons undercover as humans to spy. Probably have the older ones set up Astral Projections, and become un-killable then repeatedly attacking, if the rest of the force died, until humanity falls, or an agreement is reached.

Another thing the dragons might be able to do is infiltrate based with nuclear weapons and start world war III, though that'd require some foreknowledge, so diplomacy would have to work. I think it ultimately comes down to if the humans listen to the dragons, or shoot first and ask questions later.

Getting nukes requires that the dragons are made aware of their existance. If I was the government and a large force of magical monsters came through a magic portal into our world, I would keep the knowledge that we have those things very, very secret. Of course, that's not to say ordinary soldiers wouldn't talk and accidentally let something slip, and kobold sorcerers might be able to read minds to get that information, but it would take some very deep searching for the dragons to turn up the info that such weapons even exist, much less where they're located.

It should be noted that I don't think any of the great wyrms know astral projection. It would be up to the level 18-20 kobold sorcerers to use this tactic.

Sounds like good plans, but you guys are forgetting some things.....

Given the rate at which the draconic army can arrive thru the portal, I would assume they would send scouting dragons ( pseudo, faerie ) thru first, with some "ground troops" and diplomancers sorcerer kobolds.

From there, "A human military tactical response within 2 hours"??? cmon.. pfft..

Yeah, that seemed rather fast to me, too. Definitely a police mobilization, and the beginnings of the National Guard, but a full military mobilization seems unlikely, especially given the size (both in numbers and literal size) of the forces that come through in the first couple hours.

If I was the dragons, the first troops thru would scout things out, and play the pity role. "omg, our world is dying, we are just trying to escape/refugees, please help us!!". Even that discussion would take a few hours to be between the diplomancers, and human higher ups.

The dragons army, with a limited arrival time, really need to play up a stalling tactic, in my opinion, with anything arriving seeming peaceful/ or just going invisible/ dispersing as best it can.

At some point humans, may get suspicious, but the diplomancy/charm stalls longer. When enough troops are thru, or knowledge learned, the battle can begin.

Ooh, a new stategy! I like it, but there are a couple hurdles. How would each side react to those hurdles?

--Language barrier: Draconic isn't a langauge we speak, and only the faerie dragons and adult or older whites would speak a human language at first (smarter than average individuals could as well, but you'd need smart kobolds, very smart drakes or whites, or genious-level tatzlwyrms or dracolisks for the possibility);
--Draconic pride: I mentioned this before, but it's a very big weakness of the dragons. Do the ones planning their invasion think they need to use this strategy, or do they think it's beneath them? They're smart, definitely, but their sin of pride might blind them to some more useful tactics.
--Human pride: We're not above pride ourselves. Until very recently, we considered members of our own species that looked or talked a little different to be beneath us. When giant beasts turn up in our city, will we think that they're intelligent, or will we assume they're nothing but dumb animals? Most of them can't speak something we'll recognize, and we might not even recognize their language as a language. And to be fair, most of the first arrivals are actually stupider than us :smallsmile: .
--Dragon belligerence: Most of the weaker dragons (i.e. those who go through first) are ornery and belligerent, and might not want or be very good at playing the subtlety game. Sure, the great wyrms can tell the drakes and tatzlwyrms that they need to behave once they get there, but when the highest ranking dragons on their side of the portal are them and some really young whites, are they going to listen?

But still, it's a good idea!

Another thing not mentioned.. not only with charming/dominating... I'm sure some humans would just welcome their new draconic overlords and flip sides. ( ie... how bout a prison/mental hospital population offered freedom to fight for the dragons )

Human traitors is not something I considered! When the true power of the dragons is finally revealed, I'm sure quite a few would choose to switch sides to avoid being eaten or killed.

So they can summon backup and use necromancy - even low-level slots will create lethal cannon fodder for this purpose. Just one dragon with the right necromancy spells (e.g. Enervation) can Wightocalypse any populated area by himself, opening up a second front behind the defenders and wrecking their supply chains.

True, their not entirely alone. But I believe you are overestimating the power of summons. Even the best ones, called by a high-level caster, will only last 2 minutes at best, even if not killed. And most summons won't last long against machine gun fire, or tanks blasting them. In a straight-up fight, summons are an advantage, but not much of one. For anything else, they're pretty pointless: they don't last long enough to scout, as a distraction they're not too effective, given that the caster needs to chant loudly for 6 seconds before they appear. Using necromancy to create minions, however, is a valid tactic, and can increase their forces.

However, I'm not sure that any creature killed by negative levels automatially becomes a wight in Pathfinder. I may be wrong though; I'll look it up!

One of the most fearsome dragons for this purpose would be Umbral dragons. Ancient and up (14 total in the OP) create shadows under their control with every single kill regardless of how they do it - every fireball, every lightning bolt, every breath weapon makes shadows from our civilians. Given that they are 15th-level sorcerers at a minimum, can shadow walk at-will and each can Finger of Death 3/day - they can very quickly strike any remote populated area on the plane, reduce its population to nothing (we have no way of harming shadows) and shadow walk to the next target, even bringing their minions along if they wish.

That's a good point. I knew that umbrals would be powerful, but we can't have them be that good...Okay, so our holy water functions against shadows, even though we technically can't cast the spell, and we'll alter shadow just a bit, saying they take damage from mundane fire as normal (including the 1/2 damage from being incorporeal). That means we can kill them, but they're still very dangerous. Where's my flamethrower :smallwink: ?

Why do you say that? They can cast cleric spells too, what's to stop them from healing/raising one another? They would particularly have a vested interest in keeping the Great Wyrms alive.

True, but resurrection and friends have the same problem as wish: expensive components (animate dead has a similar problem, only it's not quite as expensive). They can bring some with them, but they also need to be able to find diamonds here to keep making use of it. Beside which, only three or four species of dragon can cast as clerics, so the opportunity to do so would be slim. Although I can jsut imagine the looks on the militaries' face: they finally succeed at taking down the Tor linnorm, using up a very expensive stock of cold iron weapons. They push past the body, but an invisible dragon sits there and resurrects it behind their back...:smallbiggrin:

~Phoenix~

artofregicide

2013-01-04, 05:39 PM

Chess435

2013-01-04, 05:58 PM

Honestly, long story short, I think we lose unless we pull a S.H.I.E.L.D and nuke the city portal right away. I just don't see a force with that many high-level casters losing to even modern military. Ask again in about 50 years.

rweird

2013-01-04, 06:24 PM

Nukes: They are too well known, capture a TV and you probably will find news coverage of the event that might discuss whether nuclear weapons are usable, disguise as a human and ask someone, get a computer and use the internet, that'd tell them a lot about humans.

Astral Projections: Astral Projection can take others, plane shift a group, one of the sorcerer 20s casts it on a group of the scariest monsters they have, a bunch of them can do that, and there is an elite, un-killable for good, dragon strike team. Probably Umbral Dragons once they figure out we have no defense to incorporeal creatures, and then a horde of shadows takes the world through a chain of command, with the umbral dragons ultimately on top, commanding there hordes from other planes, while the other dragons try to survive.

Killzone: True, it depends where it opens, i was thinking in time square or the like, though it could open inside some building. I think that something like this would be quickly reacted too. Even if there are a lot of small dragons, we have satellites and stuff, we probably could narrow it down. Once citizens are evacuated, we could bring down the building, if it is in one, though a portal with monsters coming out not in a building is hard to miss, and considering the number of cell phones, security cameras, and such, once the portal opens, unless the building is abandoned, authorities soon would know. The little dragons might escape, though the killzone could be established, and humans shoot the dragons when they come close. If it spreads beyond new york city, i think that missile strikes on the portal are likely, which could stem the flow, considering the dragons are weak once they just come out. Still, if the umbral dragons get out, i think it is a loss for the humans, unless we have some way to contain a shadow, the world is doomed, unless dragons stop the shadows themselves.

avr

2013-01-04, 10:38 PM

If the dragons stop to interrogate a few locals about where the jeweler's shops and bank vaults are, diamond dust material components will probably stop being a concern within an hour. I don't think the military would move on New York in an hour, and police officers wouldn't be able to hold off the invasion so they'll have a secure hold on the city shortly afterwards.

Beyond that; the movement rates and engagement ranges of fighter jets and dragons are so ridiculously different that humans will continue to rule the skies. This could lead to an armed standoff and negotiations; how much land area do the dragons really need, anyway?

Yahzi

2013-01-05, 03:07 AM

fighter jets would be able to take down hundreds of flyers per jet that's destroyed.
Modern fighters don't carry that much ammunition. Their missiles probably won't lock on. Same for cruise missiles; hard to hit a moving target that has none of the signals we look for (radar, thermo, etc.).

On the other hand artillery will make mincemeat out of them; most people don't understand just how destructive modern artillery is.

The one thing we know for certain - if both sides are clueless at the start of the battle, the casualty rates will be astronomical.

Chess435

2013-01-05, 04:37 AM

Then again, what if someone on our side works out they the Draconic force is in fact using PF? I have the mental image of a bunch of TO'ers being drafted to break the system as hard as possible to fight them.

ShadowFireLance

2013-01-05, 04:50 AM

I cannot belive this has exsisted without my knowledge...:smallannoyed:

Okay, A small problem with the entire setup:
Dragons.Would.NOT.be.blind.
They would Most likely already have spies or somesuch..Though, to roll with this, here's my theroy:

The Dragons Homeworld's Molten core has frozen, and the Greatest Draconic mages Finally finished their portal, And started to arrive, hence the no scouting thing.
The Magic Null would hinder, but not stop the might of the Scaled Legions(Awesome name right?) say the portal opened in a reletively unpoupulated area, They would have a small amount of time to set up a defensive force, and most people forget the fact about Dragons:
They do not have a lair without Traps, and multilayered defenses.

So the Humans just might be able to stall the Dragons for a bit, but once the Magic re-arrives, They are utterly dead, besides, What can a Normal human do against a Wyrmling?

anywho, a question:
Can I copy everything and make a 3.x Version of this?
(For those of us who dont exactly know pathfinder)

TuggyNE

2013-01-05, 05:32 AM

What can a Normal human do against a Wyrmling?

You mean other than cutting them down in a burst of semi-auto gunfire? :smalltongue: Most wyrmlings don't have much natural armor, never mind DR.

ShadowFireLance

2013-01-05, 05:58 AM

You mean other than cutting them down in a burst of semi-auto gunfire? :smalltongue: Most wyrmlings don't have much natural armor, never mind DR.

Unarmed human?
I go with wyrmling.
Now say he had a Pistol or other small arms, It depends on who see's who first.

rweird

2013-01-05, 08:42 AM

Replies in Bold:

I cannot belive this has exsisted without my knowledge...:smallannoyed:

Okay, A small problem with the entire setup:
Dragons.Would.NOT.be.blind.
They would Most likely already have spies or somesuch..Though, to roll with this, here's my theroy:
The portal isn't mad by them, it opens, they need to get through and don't have time, and can't send anyone back through the portal, its one way.

The Dragons Homeworld's Molten core has frozen, and the Greatest Draconic mages Finally finished their portal, And started to arrive, hence the no scouting thing.
Changes the premise a bit though not much
The Magic Null would hinder, but not stop the might of the Scaled Legions(Awesome name right?) say the portal opened in a reletively unpoupulated area, They would have a small amount of time to set up a defensive force, and most people forget the fact about Dragons:
They do not have a lair without Traps, and multilayered defenses.
Good luck finding an unpopulated area in New York City.

So the Humans just might be able to stall the Dragons for a bit, but once the Magic re-arrives, They are utterly dead, besides, What can a Normal human do against a Wyrmling?
Normal humans would die, though polices and military can kill wyrmlings, anyways, the dragons don't all come through at once, the white dragon wyrmlings come through first, meaning the military has artillery and automatic weapons ready to fight the bigger dragons. If the area around the portal could be leveled, then the dragons would come out and get shot down. Still, magic can screw the humans, if the dragons choose the right spell combinations, and the humans don't capture any magical weapons or whatnot.

In the end, New York probably would be destroyed, though the dragons would loose a lot of dragons if they win. Though if a shadowocalypse starts, the humans are dead (though if the dragons controlling the shadows die to a missile strike or the like then the dragons are also kind of dead). I'd give it to the dragons or no-one, unless the portal opens in central park or something, in which case the humans may be able to stem the flow enough to stop the big dragons.

ShadowFireLance

2013-01-05, 01:53 PM

Which brings me to my final Question:

How Optimized are the Great Wyrms?

Xervous

2013-01-05, 06:14 PM

Why is it always new york? Does Godzilla have a non duplication clause in his Tokyo contract?

awa

2013-01-05, 06:37 PM

okay no ones mentioned it but that yellow is eye blistering and largely illegible.

keep in mind
1. I suspect it would take more then 2 hours to convince the military they were not being trolled.
2. many dragons can shape shift turn and or turn invisible combine with teleport, mind control and scrying and the wars is over as all the world leaders order their militarizes to disarm.
3. I think you are vastly underestimating the psychological shock thousands of dragons would cause i suspect vast segments of the world would be traumatized just by the sight of the dragons. dragons with their super human mental scores could easily play humans against each other.
4. dragons might underestimate human tech but we would underestimate dragon magic and becuase they can use the internet/ mind control people they would learn our limitations faster then we would learn theirs.
5. finally the great wurms are smarter and wiser then the smartest wisest humans who have ever lived with centuries of experience. Any plan we could make they could make they could make one better. dragons might be arrogant but there not stupid and there not foolish.

edit also if the dragons choose to take hostages thus preventing the army from leveling the city the whole nature of street to street fighting puts the army at such a huge disadvantage that a million low level kobolds and a swarm of pseudo dragons could probably hold out for months or even years.
edit x2 the dragons also can easily control the oceans many can breath under water and travel to depths we cant reach.
even if fire/ holy water hurts shadows it would take time to realize that was the case and by then the dragons would have so many that they could win by raw weight of numbers. they are vulnerable to sunlight but luckily humans spend so much time inside.

I suspect when combined with superhuman charisma they would have humans disarmed before the whole invasive force was through and worshiping them as gods with in a few years tops.

rweird

2013-01-05, 06:55 PM

okay no ones mentioned it but that yellow is eye blistering and largely illegible.

keep in mind
1. I suspect it would take more then 2 hours to convince the military they were not being trolled.

Unless the dragons attack, and the police call the military, and media is flooded with videos and thousands of accounts of dragons attacking. Though if the dragons don't attack, you have a valid point.

5. finally the great wurms are smarter and wiser then the smartest wisest humans who have ever lived with centuries of experience. Any plan we could make they could make they could make one better. dragons might be arrogant but there not stupid and there not foolish.

They live in a world without drone strikes and supersonic airplanes. They can come up with a better one, if they learn everything, though mastering TV, the internet, and modern day tactics would take time, they might attack not realizing .50 caliber rifles can kill them any quicker than a bow (even less reason with gunslingers existing), until some of them die, then they adapt. They have centuries of experience in a PF world, the world they enter is different. I'm not sure how quickly they could adapt, though much of it depends on how quickly they can learn about this world, too many variable, though the greatest dragons would arrive last, this means they'd have a more up to date report, but also they'd start calling the shots later.

Something we haven't brought up. D&D exists, these creatures are represented in D&D, someone may realize there a similarities, and once the person correctly predicts things and so-on, the military might start taking it seriously, then this thread would probably be discovered, and the exact way the attack works (the strongest come last, after coming through the portal they are weakened, etc). I'm not sure how to factor that in, this is if the military takes those people seriously, though the resemblance would be uncanny, and the information may be to valuable not to (especially when the dragons use much of the same stuff).

awa

2013-01-05, 07:02 PM

Seer_of_Heart

2013-01-05, 07:15 PM

This sounds like a super fun campaign idea if you modify it. Possibly have the players be playing themselves :smalltongue:, so it would be completely IC to have all the d&d knowledge they have irl once they make checks to figure out that these are d&d dragons. And fluff them getting their first level(s) by the dragon's arrival or some event related to them letting them awaken abilities as a psion/wizard/whatever. Although changes would have to be made in this the basic idea of a draconic invasion of our world sounds like a fun game.

But back on topic:
I think after 3 rounds the information about dragons would have been able to be sent over the internet/phones/other information service and considering how fast communication technology is I would assume that transmission of data is considered a free action in terms of time 99% of the time. Assuming it takes 5 minutes for the nearest nuke to be fired and assuming the entire stockpile of russian and american nukes can be fired a nuke can be launched in less than every 2 minutes

awa

2013-01-05, 07:19 PM

I suspect if Russia and or china nuked new york the U.S. would nuke them back.
I guess if your goal is to stop dragons from destroying the world its a good plan they cant destroy it if we beat them to the punch.

By the time nukes would be considered a viable choice the dragons have already used dominate on all the world governments and spread out enough that they it would have no long term effect.

no government is going to destroy one of its biggest cities as the first course of action

rweird

2013-01-05, 07:19 PM

we explicitly know nothing so i just assumed d&d does not exist in the invaded world. and even if it did the psychological shock would be so devastating i doubt anyone would put 2 and 2 together until it was far to late.

I suppose so, though the people in this thread might put 2 and 2 together. For us knowing nothing, i guess it is the OP call if this counts as knowledge (no-one would think that dragons would attack, or they would follow D&D rules, i can see it that way). The OP said we have no idea what happening until it happens (no-one here thinks it would happen so this could exist, as could the rest of D&D, we just don't expect an attack until the dragons already attack).

avr

2013-01-05, 08:02 PM

Modern fighters don't carry that much ammunition. Their missiles probably won't lock on. Same for cruise missiles; hard to hit a moving target that has none of the signals we look for (radar, thermo, etc.).

On the other hand artillery will make mincemeat out of them; most people don't understand just how destructive modern artillery is.

The one thing we know for certain - if both sides are clueless at the start of the battle, the casualty rates will be astronomical.
Radar should pick up dragons with metallic scales nicely (even if it's just a paint-thin coating over keratin or something). Possibly chromatic dragons also, depending on what they're made of exactly.

Artillery can be less than optimally effective inside cities. Illusions could be scarily effective in misdirecting any forward observers too.

Absol197

2013-01-07, 11:55 AM

A couple of things: (From the human side of things)

One, I think you underestimate how prepared and paranoid the US. military is. While you obviously couldn't have full mobilization of the entire force (many of which are overseas), with the use of aircraft and helicopters, we could deploy a large number (probably a few thousand) marines in NY on short notice. Within two hours. While I'm not aware of every military base in the entire United States, I do know that there are stations around Washington DC, and a great deal of navy installations in Virginia. It would take less than an hour to fly troops in from there, and rapid response is one of the things our military does well.

True. The timing becomes dependant on A) when the dragons are first noticed (by someone who survives); B) How long before the police or whomever calls in the military; and C) How long it takes for the military to confirm it. Because, let's be honest, if someone called the Army and said, "Help! Dragons are spilling out a magic portal and wreaking havoc in New York City!", their first thought is going to be that someone is playing a not-so-amusing joke. Until they confirm it, whether from seeing it on breaking news or through satellite observation, they're not going to move.

Of course, after they decide to move, you're absolutely right that they'll get there really quick. Whether or not they can barracade the portal easily depends on the defenses the dragons use. Like I said, even independent of what kobolds they send through, the early dragons could blanket the area in fog. If they send in more powerful kobolds, they could do so with illusions, too, which would makes things hectic for the military, and might slow them down.

We've talked about nukes and fighter jets, but honestly, both of those are a bit outdated technology. What about drone fighters, or cruise missiles? I'm pretty certain that a Dragon cannot outrun a cruise missile, nor without magic predict it, and I could see even a Great Wyrm going down to one of these. And we have a lot of cruise missiles, and enough boats in the Atlantic which have them that it'd be reasonable to say at least one is in range.

On the subject of Drone fighters, there are a number of missile delivery systems that work long range. And with the use of satellites (which should be immediately available) we'd have pin-point accuracy.

Cruise missiles are definitely powerful, but do they use tracking? And even if they do, how does tracking work on modern weapons? If it's still heat-based, they might have trouble tracking a white dragon, especially when the older ones radiate an aura of cold. Additionally, in the beginning I think the military wouldn't want to use such things in the heart of New York until (and unless) it became clear that they were losing the city anyways. And should any dragons witness and survive such strikes, mentioning to their more powerful masters that they should remain invisible or under cover as often as possible could help ("They rain deadly fire from the sky! You must remain unseen or they could strike you down!"). The pin-point accuracy helps, until magic such as invisibility, blur/displacement, and illusions come into play.

Also, what kind of damage would such weapons do? If it's fire, a fair number of dragons would take massively reduced damage. If it's from the shock-wave that would probably be sonic, and much fewer would be resistant, but crystal dragons (the second species out) are immune to sonic.

Information travels fast in our modern world, especially in regards to the military and intelligence services of the largest and most advanced military power in the world. Obviously, you have to factor in chaos and shock, as well as the fact that we don't know anything about Dragonkind.

Honestly, ground forces would be a delaying action: unless the Dragons come up with a counter-strategy, our ability to pepper them with long range missiles might end of the fight prematurely. And again, the Dragons have no idea that that is what is coming.

Information does travel fast. But a lot of the information that travels is tracking known suspects, airplanes currently in the air, and other things like that. This would be a special circumstance, so disbelief and trying to get confirmation as to what's going on would slow things down a bit. Likely not enough to be of much difference, but it can't be ignored.

The counter-strategy might be the linnorms. If they can make it to when their regeneration comes back (less than 90 seconds, even for the weakest of them), then only truly massive amounts of damage or cold iron weapons could kill them. Combined with their massive size and exceptionally deadly breath weapons (not to mention the fact that whoever kills them is cursed, sometimes in a quite vicious fashion), they could be a real problem. The military might waste a whole lot of resources trying in vain to put a single linnorm down. Even if they succeed (with gratuitous amounts of what they would think would be overkill), that's a distraction that could break through a blockade of the portal and allow a lot more dragons the chance to get their magic back.

Also, another question is chemical warfare. While I believe that the US has said they destroyed their remaining stockpiles of VX gas, it seems quite possible they've saved some for a rainy day (Or fiery day, in this case), or have something even more potent.

Speaking of which, what would the saving through vs VX gas be? Anyone want to calculate it (and see how it'd affect the various dragons mentioned above?)

Finally, there are a lot of weapons that we don't know about. The military doesn't exactly publish its current secret weapons. We really don't know what they'd have to bring against the Dragons (or whoever). Do you want to houserule that only known weapons (on either side) are what we'll discuss in this engagement?

I'll admit I've never heard of that gas. And while I'm sure it's quite deadly, gas attacks are not unknown to the dragons (cloudkill is a spell a lot of them know), and so ways of dispersing such things are available to them (once again, the whites get gust of wind at will). A very good strategy once the city is either evacuated or lost, but not necessarily a game-ender.

As for secret weapons, I agree that they're bound to have some. Unfortunately, if we don't know what they are, we can't account for them. We'll have to leave them out, which unfortunately doesn't allow humans to bring their full force to bear against the invasion. But I think they've still got a sporting chance, without them.

Nukes: They are too well known, capture a TV and you probably will find news coverage of the event that might discuss whether nuclear weapons are usable, disguise as a human and ask someone, get a computer and use the internet, that'd tell them a lot about humans.

True, they can find out. I actually think I discounted their ability to gather information (and how readily available it might be) too quickly.

Astral Projections: Astral Projection can take others, plane shift a group, one of the sorcerer 20s casts it on a group of the scariest monsters they have, a bunch of them can do that, and there is an elite, un-killable for good, dragon strike team. Probably Umbral Dragons once they figure out we have no defense to incorporeal creatures, and then a horde of shadows takes the world through a chain of command, with the umbral dragons ultimately on top, commanding there hordes from other planes, while the other dragons try to survive.

Also true! I really don't like the spell astral projection, so I usually forget what it can do. So, the dragons have a major advantage there. So when do they send their high level kobolds through to use this strategy? Do they send them early (where the might get taken down), or do they hold them back until after the large dragons that they're projecting have gone through?

Killzone: True, it depends where it opens, i was thinking in time square or the like, though it could open inside some building. I think that something like this would be quickly reacted too. Even if there are a lot of small dragons, we have satellites and stuff, we probably could narrow it down. Once citizens are evacuated, we could bring down the building, if it is in one, though a portal with monsters coming out not in a building is hard to miss, and considering the number of cell phones, security cameras, and such, once the portal opens, unless the building is abandoned, authorities soon would know. The little dragons might escape, though the killzone could be established, and humans shoot the dragons when they come close. If it spreads beyond new york city, i think that missile strikes on the portal are likely, which could stem the flow, considering the dragons are weak once they just come out. Still, if the umbral dragons get out, i think it is a loss for the humans, unless we have some way to contain a shadow, the world is doomed, unless dragons stop the shadows themselves.

The portal has to open somewhere where a Colossal dragon can come through unimpeded. It could technically be in a large, empty warehouse, but it would most likely be outsied somewhere, giving the humans the advantage of noticing it much quicker.

If the dragons stop to interrogate a few locals about where the jeweler's shops and bank vaults are, diamond dust material components will probably stop being a concern within an hour. I don't think the military would move on New York in an hour, and police officers wouldn't be able to hold off the invasion so they'll have a secure hold on the city shortly afterwards.

Based on the current price of gold, to cast a single wish they need the equivalent of $8,155,185 worth of diamonds. Now, I usually say that the material components "cost" is based on things like size, purity, and other factors, so that could change depending ont he kind of diamonds they find, but it gives you a general idea. Those big-cost spells will still be relatively rare.

I don't think the dragons will have a secure hold that quickly, if only because of their lack of inital forces. 1,400 creatures can't hold New York, especially when most of them are the size of cats or small dogs, even with breath weapons and minor magic. And that's after two hours.

Beyond that; the movement rates and engagement ranges of fighter jets and dragons are so ridiculously different that humans will continue to rule the skies. This could lead to an armed standoff and negotiations; how much land area do the dragons really need, anyway?

They don't need land - their goal (for whatever reason) is to conquer us. They already think they're better than us in every way, and think quite highly of themselves, so it's not much of a stretch for a dragon to want to do so. Most of them already think they rule everything that exists in their territories, anyway.

Then again, what if someone on our side works out they the Draconic force is in fact using PF? I have the mental image of a bunch of TO'ers being drafted to break the system as hard as possible to fight them.

I know I didn't comment on this in the OP, so let's split the scenario again, and say that there are two versions: one where PF does exist, and the one where it doesn't. I myself will be talking about the latter.

I cannot belive this has exsisted without my knowledge...:smallannoyed:

:smallsmile:

Okay, A small problem with the entire setup:
Dragons.Would.NOT.be.blind.
They would Most likely already have spies or somesuch..

In this instance, they are. They didn't make this portal, they can't control it, and they never got a previous one, nor will they get another, so they couldn't do any exploration or espionage. Sorry!

Though, to roll with this, here's my theroy:

The Dragons Homeworld's Molten core has frozen, and the Greatest Draconic mages Finally finished their portal, And started to arrive, hence the no scouting thing.
The Magic Null would hinder, but not stop the might of the Scaled Legions(Awesome name right?) say the portal opened in a reletively unpoupulated area, They would have a small amount of time to set up a defensive force, and most people forget the fact about Dragons:
They do not have a lair without Traps, and multilayered defenses.

So the Humans just might be able to stall the Dragons for a bit, but once the Magic re-arrives, They are utterly dead, besides, What can a Normal human do against a Wyrmling?

A normal human could do quite a lot to a wyrmling, if they have a gun. And New York has its fair share of gun violence, and concealed-carry permits :smallsmile: . Plus police officers. They definitely wouldn't be expecting the whole freeze breath of the white wyrmlings, or the fireball-esque breath of the drakes (and especially not the petrifying gaze of the dracolisks), but they could definitely do some damage to the early forces. Besides, there are lots of cars in New York - running over the kobolds with a taxi is just as good as a gun, and lots of people can do that!

You are right about the traps, though. I was assuming that the kobold experts and rogues would get to work setting those up as soon as they arrived, because that's what kobolds do :smallsmile: !

anywho, a question:
Can I copy everything and make a 3.x Version of this?
(For those of us who dont exactly know pathfinder)

Sure :smallsmile: ! Although I'm always confused by the whole "don't know Pathfinder" thing - it's just like 3.5 with a couple little bits added, and I linked to (most of) the dragons. Plus, the whole thing is available for free online.

~Phoenix~

Absol197

2013-01-07, 12:20 PM

There were too many responses to get them all in one post, sorry!

Which brings me to my final Question:

How Optimized are the Great Wyrms?

Spell list-wise, not very. They use the ones given on d20pfsrd.com. Otherwise, however optimized you think an ancient genius should be.

Why is it always new york? Does Godzilla have a non duplication clause in his Tokyo contract?

Yep, that's exactly why!

okay no ones mentioned it but that yellow is eye blistering and largely illegible.

Sorry!

keep in mind
1. I suspect it would take more then 2 hours to convince the military they were not being trolled.

I agree. Media response would be very important here in getting the military out in time to have a major affect.

2. many dragons can shape shift turn and or turn invisible combine with teleport, mind control and scrying and the wars is over as all the world leaders order their militarizes to disarm.

The problem with this is that for teleportation, you need to know where you're going, and the dragons don't know this world well. For scrying, you need to know your target, which would take quite a bit of time to find out who's who, and who the best targets are. For mind-control, you need to be rather close to the target. All-in-all, that tactic would be very useful for he dragons, but it wouldn't be able to be used immediately.

3. I think you are vastly underestimating the psychological shock thousands of dragons would cause i suspect vast segments of the world would be traumatized just by the sight of the dragons. dragons with their super human mental scores could easily play humans against each other.

Especially because the bigger dragons have a frightful presence that would reduce even the bravest soldiers encountering them to quivering wrecks :smallsmile: . I'm not really underestimating it, but I'm sure that people would try to fight back, anyway.

4. dragons might underestimate human tech but we would underestimate dragon magic and becuase they can use the internet/ mind control people they would learn our limitations faster then we would learn theirs.

This is very true. Once the big casters start coming through (provided they can survive long enough to use their magic), any defenders will be scratching their heads wondering how the heck that giant thing just disapp--oh, God! It's still there, and it's killing us! We can't see it but it's killing us!

Of course, I think figuring out the internet would take a while, especially because the really intelligent dragons come through much later, and computers are fragile, so finding a working one to experiemwnt with would take a while. Assuming that they still have routers that provide service when the city is abandoned :smallsmile: .

5. finally the great wurms are smarter and wiser then the smartest wisest humans who have ever lived with centuries of experience. Any plan we could make they could make they could make one better. dragons might be arrogant but there not stupid and there not foolish.

This is true, too.

edit also if the dragons choose to take hostages thus preventing the army from leveling the city the whole nature of street to street fighting puts the army at such a huge disadvantage that a million low level kobolds and a swarm of pseudo dragons could probably hold out for months or even years.

I also think the existance of the subway tunnels, as well as things like crystal and underworld dragons that have great tunneling abilities could help move the dragons' forces in ways that we don't expect.

edit x2 the dragons also can easily control the oceans many can breath under water and travel to depths we cant reach.
even if fire/ holy water hurts shadows it would take time to realize that was the case and by then the dragons would have so many that they could win by raw weight of numbers. they are vulnerable to sunlight but luckily humans spend so much time inside.

Especially things like the fjord and gare linnorms. I think they could take out an aircraft carrier if they really worked at it.

Unless the dragons attack, and the police call the military, and media is flooded with videos and thousands of accounts of dragons attacking. Though if the dragons don't attack, you have a valid point.

It depends on where they show up, and what strategies they tell their first arrivals to use in what situations. And also which kobolds they send through first.

This sounds like a super fun campaign idea if you modify it. Possibly have the players be playing themselves :smalltongue:, so it would be completely IC to have all the d&d knowledge they have irl once they make checks to figure out that these are d&d dragons. And fluff them getting their first level(s) by the dragon's arrival or some event related to them letting them awaken abilities as a psion/wizard/whatever. Although changes would have to be made in this the basic idea of a draconic invasion of our world sounds like a fun game.

I was actually thinking that it would be two groups: one playing some of the dragon's forces, the other playing high-up military people, trying to see who wins!

But back on topic:
I think after 3 rounds the information about dragons would have been able to be sent over the internet/phones/other information service and considering how fast communication technology is I would assume that transmission of data is considered a free action in terms of time 99% of the time. Assuming it takes 5 minutes for the nearest nuke to be fired and assuming the entire stockpile of russian and american nukes can be fired a nuke can be launched in less than every 2 minutes

The first dragons are about a hundred white wyrmlings and a couple dozen kobolds. The sheer size of the invading force wouldn't be known for days. I don't think they're gonna jump to nukes in the first instants. Plus, that assumes that either the dragons don't come through somewhere where the first arrivals aren't noticed, or that they can't silence any humans in their general area. If they burst out and go straight for "Kill everything you see!" Then it's going to be known (if perhaps not believed) rather quickly, but I'm pretty sure that the big dragons in the back would say, "If at all possible, keep your heads down for as long as you can!"

I suspect if Russia and or china nuked new york the U.S. would nuke them back.
I guess if your goal is to stop dragons from destroying the world its a good plan they cant destroy it if we beat them to the punch.

By the time nukes would be considered a viable choice the dragons have already used dominate on all the world governments and spread out enough that they it would have no long term effect.

no government is going to destroy one of its biggest cities as the first course of action

I agree that the Army wouldn't even consider nukes until it's obivous that New York is lost, and even then they might not do it (completely wiping out one of your most populous and prosperous cities is not usually a good idea). Plus, if they've figured out that some big dragons can teleport by then, they definitely wouldn't, because that would mean that containment has already failed.

Radar should pick up dragons with metallic scales nicely (even if it's just a paint-thin coating over keratin or something). Possibly chromatic dragons also, depending on what they're made of exactly.

Artillery can be less than optimally effective inside cities. Illusions could be scarily effective in misdirecting any forward observers too.

Metallic dragons don't actually have scales made of metal, their scales just look like it :smallsmile: .

~Phoenix~

awa

2013-01-07, 12:26 PM

keep in mind a wrymling white dragon is crazy stealthy and more then capable of killing a normal human if it attacks from ambush. guns only work if you have something to shoot at.

a human is very likely not to realize something the size of a cat can rip a grown man to pieces.

and even if it was obvious the city was lost America would likely be unwilling to destroy a city like new york if the dragons were smart enough to take most of the population hostage.

edit
first kobold through activates items or spells to create fog get into that will allow you to take a large number of hostages before anyone realizes their is even an attack going on

the dragons could stall like crazy send some of the kobold to negotiate and give up some of the hostages to pretend your reasonable, potion of glibness will help with that. the portal is still covered with mist to hide the fact that you are getting reinforcements .

Have kobolds summon/ planner bind as many outsiders with at will dominate/charm there must be some in pf. any weird behavior on the part of the controlled will be attributed to shock. they can spread misinformation to the army and if necessary use human wave tactics to disrupt any attack (although that would be the last resort because it reveals the presence of mind control magic that needs to be kept quite as long as possible.) interrogate some of the controlled people once enough info is gathered and high level casters come through greater invisibility teleport into the white house dominate president.

Have him tell you who are all the generals in charge of the military and there locations repeat as necessary. Now the dragons control the drones and the nukes and can thoroughly destroy the chain of command .

under cover of mist have the burrowing and swimming dragons leave the city and find places to hide in case things go sour their not all in one place. once a sufficiently powerful caster appears use teleport circle and planar magic to start moving forces out of the city stick them inside mountain ranges then burrow down deep enough to make them nuke proof and on other planes. unconventional warfare is the dragons strength don't allow the humans to fight on there own terms.

we honestly could do this with just the kobolds the dragon are just over kill
dominate each hostage as they leave the city.

ShadowFireLance

2013-01-07, 01:22 PM

The pathfinder Dragons (IMO) are Weaker, and have less optimization then a D&D Dragon....
Now, I think I will start the 3.x Thread.

artofregicide

2013-01-07, 09:49 PM

I keep hearing mentions of Summoning, Outsiders, Planar Binding, etc:

So my question to Absol197: how exactly does that work? How can a Dragon bind an Outsider in our world, unless those planes exist? If not, can we discount at least the Dragons bringing various other extraplanear forces into the mix?

What planes exist in *our* world? I can't imagine we have an identical Abyss or Elysium to the D&D world, and not know about it.

I'm honestly... not an expert on the mechanics of summoning (especially in Pathfinder), so my question is: without access to the planes in the Pathfinder-verse, would it still function?

The same goes for Astral Projection: and really anything like Planeshift. I think you addressed this earlier, but I'm not certain if you made it clear which planes exist in our universe.

You've more or less made it apparent that optimization is less player/designer based than the work of the Dragons and Kobolds themselves. I think that is consistent with the scenario, but can you give us an idea of what books we'd draw from? Draconomicon comes to mind, and has been mentioned before... but I'm not aware of a 3.5 version?

Though I've flip-flopped on the issue (partially due to brain-deadness), I have to admit that you've presented a pretty complex scenario, with both sides bringing advantages and disadvantages to the fight.

A quick question is: how much leeway do the Dragons have in the order by which their forces come through? I mean, I know you have the order of Dragon type staggered, and we can just assume that was picked for good reasons, but the exact type of Dragon sent through the portal, and in which order, and with what kind of Kobold isn't fixed? Is there a requirement that the Dragons go Wyrmling to Great Wyrm? Or Kobolds lvl 1 to lvl 20? (It seems that you haven't made this a rule).

Add-on: How many creatures can come out of the Portal at a time? What are the dimensions of the Portal, and are there any restrictions other than the time frame, number that can be moved through it, location, and magic EMP thing?

Also, gear wise, can we just assume that the Dragons/Kobolds/etc have access to the normal gear/resources that the guide states they should have? Can they switch it out (Give the higher-ranking Kobolds poisoned weapons, for instance?)

Knowing Kobolds, I feel like they'd quickly come to understand our weaponry (firearms such as pistols and shotguns, as well as grenades or other personnel deployed devices). On the other hand, given the corpses, or better yet live specimens, humans would quickly work to reveal the secrets of their enemies... and probably soon figure out the basics of the Dragon's supernatural abilities.

Again, I'd have to say that Nukes are pretty much of the picture. At the point which they would be deployed, the fight would probably have tipped one way or another. At least, they wouldn't come into play until much later than we've explained. I can't see the government obliterating one of the largest American population centers, and remember, the EMP blast would affect us more than the Dragons.

On the other hand, most of our most advanced weapons have a manual option, meaning we can fire "dumb" missiles, or optically guided at best. That reduces our pinpoint accuracy, somewhat, but the power of illusions is really what is going to kill us. That and invisibility, which thankfully in combat doesn't last all that long.

As for taking the situation seriously, I give it 10 minutes. Tops. If one person says "Dragons are attacking NYC" it'd be taken as a prank. Same for 10 people. If 100 did, someone would look into it. If a significant portion of the population of NY, along with media and local government were all reporting the same Dragon invasion, well, I don't think the military or civilian powers in the US would take it as a joke.

Which brings us to the question of whether the Dragons attempt to use stealth/diplomacy instead of brute force. That comes to the issue of Pride vs Prudence. It seems unlikely the Dragons would attempt to slowly infiltrate our government, besides, it seems unlikely that they could hide a constant stream of Dragonoids over a period of 5ish days.

I assume the Dragons would, strategically, spend at least some stealth/mind control oriented troops in first. Probably some shock troops too, and if given the option, at least a mid-level Dragon, possibly altered in form to something smaller. There's no sense in crowding your LZ with useless lvl 1 peons.

Which brings me to my last question: for the sake of clarity, do you (Absol197) mind giving us a specific location where the Portal would open? Or at least an idea: there's a big difference between Times Square, Central Park, and some abandoned warehouse near the burrows?

Gah, the more I think about this idea, the more entertaining it becomes. As a DM, I'm dying to figure out a way to run it. I'm thinking of making the PC's the Dragons...

Absol197

2013-01-08, 09:05 AM

keep in mind a wrymling white dragon is crazy stealthy and more then capable of killing a normal human if it attacks from ambush. guns only work if you have something to shoot at.

+17 to Stealth? Yeah, you're correct on this one!

a human is very likely not to realize something the size of a cat can rip a grown man to pieces.

and even if it was obvious the city was lost America would likely be unwilling to destroy a city like new york if the dragons were smart enough to take most of the population hostage.

Hmm...it would take a couple rounds, but yes, a wyrmling is much more capable of doing that than a cat is. Plus flight at up to 50 miles per hour makes them hard to catch afterwards...

edit
first kobold through activates items or spells to create fog get into that will allow you to take a large number of hostages before anyone realizes their is even an attack going on

the dragons could stall like crazy send some of the kobold to negotiate and give up some of the hostages to pretend your reasonable, potion of glibness will help with that. the portal is still covered with mist to hide the fact that you are getting reinforcements .

Have kobolds summon/planner bind as many outsiders with at will dominate/charm there must be some in PF. any weird behavior on the part of the controlled will be attributed to shock. they can spread misinformation to the army and if necessary use human wave tactics to disrupt any attack (although that would be the last resort because it reveals the presence of mind control magic that needs to be kept quite as long as possible.) interrogate some of the controlled people once enough info is gathered and high level casters come through greater invisibility teleport into the white house dominate president.

The bolded part is the one problem with this strategy. We decided that while summoning works, calling does not. But if the kobolds used their own mind control, the scenario could be saved, it just requires more investement and risk of powerful troops.

Have him tell you who are all the generals in charge of the military and there locations repeat as necessary. Now the dragons control the drones and the nukes and can thoroughly destroy the chain of command .

under cover of mist have the burrowing and swimming dragons leave the city and find places to hide in case things go sour their not all in one place. once a sufficiently powerful caster appears use teleport circle and planar magic to start moving forces out of the city stick them inside mountain ranges then burrow down deep enough to make them nuke proof and on other planes. unconventional warfare is the dragons strength don't allow the humans to fight on there own terms.

we honestly could do this with just the kobolds the dragon are just over kill
dominate each hostage as they leave the city.

All a good strategy. The only problem becomes getting it set up, which means surviving on this side of the portal for long enough for the magic of the first arrivals to return.

The pathfinder Dragons (IMO) are Weaker, and have less optimization then a D&D Dragon....
Now, I think I will start the 3.x Thread.

:smallconfused: They have additional spell-like abilities, and other new and interesting abilities that the 3.5 dragons don't. Oh well, to each his own, I guess.

Please link when you do start it!

I keep hearing mentions of Summoning, Outsiders, Planar Binding, etc:

So my question to Absol197: how exactly does that work? How can a Dragon bind an Outsider in our world, unless those planes exist? If not, can we discount at least the Dragons bringing various other extraplanear forces into the mix?

What planes exist in *our* world? I can't imagine we have an identical Abyss or Elysium to the D&D world, and not know about it.

I'm honestly... not an expert on the mechanics of summoning (especially in Pathfinder), so my question is: without access to the planes in the Pathfinder-verse, would it still function?

As per the OP, all the other planes still exist, but each creature is "attuned" to one version of the material plane. The portal changes which material plane that is for the dragons, but all the outsiders and other extraplanar creatures are still not attuned here. So summoning works, because that essentially creates a short-term magical photocopy of a creature but doesn't bring it here; plane shifting works, because the other planes still exist; but calling (planar binding, planar ally) does not, because it can't actually bring a creature attuned to a different material plane here.

The same goes for Astral Projection: and really anything like Planeshift. I think you addressed this earlier, but I'm not certain if you made it clear which planes exist in our universe.

You've more or less made it apparent that optimization is less player/designer based than the work of the Dragons and Kobolds themselves. I think that is consistent with the scenario, but can you give us an idea of what books we'd draw from? Draconomicon comes to mind, and has been mentioned before... but I'm not aware of a 3.5 version?

Though I've flip-flopped on the issue (partially due to brain-deadness), I have to admit that you've presented a pretty complex scenario, with both sides bringing advantages and disadvantages to the fight.

Any Pathfinder book is available (Core Rulebook, Advanced Players Guide/Races Guide, Ultimate Magic/Combat/Equipment; bascially, anything in the Pathfinder SRD where the linked dragon stats are).

A quick question is: how much leeway do the Dragons have in the order by which their forces come through? I mean, I know you have the order of Dragon type staggered, and we can just assume that was picked for good reasons, but the exact type of Dragon sent through the portal, and in which order, and with what kind of Kobold isn't fixed? Is there a requirement that the Dragons go Wyrmling to Great Wyrm? Or Kobolds lvl 1 to lvl 20? (It seems that you haven't made this a rule).

Not much leeway, unfortunately. The dragons have to come through wyrmling to great wyrm. The kobolds, however, can be sent through in any order. So they could choose to send all their level 20 kobolds first, if they wanted. Assume that any part of that requirement that isn't optimal for the dragons is because of the strange and arcane rules of how the portal works. The idea was that because the dragons have such a major advantage (surprise, and magic), they have to have a disadvatage (not having much choice in the order in which they arrive). Therefore, their entire strategy has to take into account the various potential places they could arrive in (as far as they can assume), and the order and rate they'll be arriving in. It would be much too easy if they could sent a great wyrm through first, then have it greater teleport to a safe place and watch and wait.

Add-on: How many creatures can come out of the Portal at a time? What are the dimensions of the Portal, and are there any restrictions other than the time frame, number that can be moved through it, location, and magic EMP thing?

Also, gear wise, can we just assume that the Dragons/Kobolds/etc have access to the normal gear/resources that the guide states they should have? Can they switch it out (Give the higher-ranking Kobolds poisoned weapons, for instance?)

Good questions! I was going to say that the portal was a vertical disk (like a gate spell, or a Stargate), but I'm changing it: the portal covers a spherical volume, with a radius of 50 feet (so a hundred feet across). It looks like a globe of very fine, silvery mist. The mist can be seen through with no trouble (in fact, if it were very bright, it might be hard to see the mist), but when a dragon comes through, the mists sort of congeal into a thick area in the shape of that dragon, then draw back and the dragon is there, as though arrived by teleportation. There is no limit to the number of creatures that can move through at once, volume-wise, but they still can't bum-rush a large number through; they're drawn through at the given rate.

As for equipment, the kobolds get the standard wealth-by-level of a character of their level (or their level -1, for an NPC-classed kobold), which they spend in the given increments from the table in the PFCR, basically splitting it between armor, weapons, expendables, and other. So the higher level kobolds will have stronger equipment when they come through (once the magic returns). Nothing is stopping them from trading it with each other afterwards, though.

Knowing Kobolds, I feel like they'd quickly come to understand our weaponry (firearms such as pistols and shotguns, as well as grenades or other personnel deployed devices). On the other hand, given the corpses, or better yet live specimens, humans would quickly work to reveal the secrets of their enemies... and probably soon figure out the basics of the Dragon's supernatural abilities.

I believe you're right on both counts!

Again, I'd have to say that Nukes are pretty much out of the picture. At the point which they would be deployed, the fight would probably have tipped one way or another. At least, they wouldn't come into play until much later than we've explained. I can't see the government obliterating one of the largest American population centers, and remember, the EMP blast would affect us more than the Dragons.

On the other hand, most of our most advanced weapons have a manual option, meaning we can fire "dumb" missiles, or optically guided at best. That reduces our pinpoint accuracy, somewhat, but the power of illusions is really what is going to kill us. That and invisibility, which thankfully in combat doesn't last all that long.

Once again, I think you're right on both counts. Especially if the dragons take hostages as awa was saying, nukes are unlikely to get deployed. And the buildings of New York will be a deterrent from using our most powerful missile systems initially, which would likely end up disastrous, as we would let some of the more powerful and difficult to kill dragons through by stalling.

As for taking the situation seriously, I give it 10 minutes. Tops. If one person says "Dragons are attacking NYC" it'd be taken as a prank. Same for 10 people. If 100 did, someone would look into it. If a significant portion of the population of NY, along with media and local government were all reporting the same Dragon invasion, well, I don't think the military or civilian powers in the US would take it as a joke.

Which brings us to the question of whether the Dragons attempt to use stealth/diplomacy instead of brute force. That comes to the issue of Pride vs Prudence. It seems unlikely the Dragons would attempt to slowly infiltrate our government, besides, it seems unlikely that they could hide a constant stream of Dragonoids over a period of 5ish days.

I assume the Dragons would, strategically, spend at least some stealth/mind control oriented troops in first. Probably some shock troops too, and if given the option, at least a mid-level Dragon, possibly altered in form to something smaller. There's no sense in crowding your LZ with useless lvl 1 peons.

I agree that infiltration is likely the last thing on the dragons minds from the start. Until they see how powerful an enemy they've made, they're going to think they can bull-rush right over us. Of course, sending troops that can create chaos in your enemies ranks (illusionists and enchanters) is still just as good of an idea as shock troops, so I agree that they'd do that. The only problem is sending a transformed mid-level dragon: the transformation would have to be made on this side of the portal, because no active spells can go through.

Which brings me to my last question: for the sake of clarity, do you (Absol197) mind giving us a specific location where the Portal would open? Or at least an idea: there's a big difference between Times Square, Central Park, and some abandoned warehouse near the burrows?

Gah, the more I think about this idea, the more entertaining it becomes. As a DM, I'm dying to figure out a way to run it. I'm thinking of making the PC's the Dragons...

Instead of giving you one, let's run three scenarios, one for each! How do things turn out differently in all of them? The main difference is quite likely response time, and how many dragons get through before they're noticed.

~Phoenix~

awa

2013-01-08, 09:58 AM

with out the at will dominate (unless someone else know an easy source of that) the mind control strategy is not quite as powerful but you could still grab the president and the top generals.

An altered self bard with glibness posting videos on youtube would be absolutely devastating (he has a mentally controlled human doing the actually camra work) he could tell people the dragons are a government coverup and not even a very good one i mean common dragons really you couldn't think of something more plausible. With enough charmed human advisors feeding him tidbits about world politics he could cause immense damage playing people against each other.

Larkas

2013-01-08, 01:39 PM

Zero Hour - Kobolds come through the portal. Against all odds, the portal opens in the middle of a huge warehouse, just next door to a major computer gaming convention.

ZH+1 - Kobolds, now with their magic operational, enter the gaming convention, where they find lots of people playing competitive games and MMORPGs alike.

Thinking they are cosplayers, the players welcome the kobolds to the convention enthusiastically. They are acclaimed as the best cosplayers in the convention, and win a prize computer.

Intrigued, some kobold sorcerers cast Tongues, and try to get to know what the heck this people is going on about.

ZH+5 - Kobolds are fascinated with online gaming. They promptly learn to play some of the simplest games, and teach it to their comrades.

ZH+? - The whole dragonkind is completely addicted to computer games. They thoroughly forget what their original purpose was.

The stupidest of the bunch can't get much more than Facebook games. But they are happy playing it. Some of the more dedicated whites even get to the top of the scoreboards!

The brighter ones are totally into MMORPGs. The good of the bunch prefer PvE servers, and make long lasting, newbie friendly guilds. The lawful ones are specially suited to GM duty, and as such are promptly hired by the owners of the game. The chaotic ones are simply trolls, going from the light-hearted coppers to the destructive reds, that strive to make newbies' lives hell in PvP servers. The evil ones are the worst of the bunch, stealing other people's accounts and setting up schemes to sell gold.

The brightest of the brightest are particularly suited to strategy games. Golds and Silvers simply LOVE Civilization 5. Sovereign dragons, meanwhile, like to play Age of Empires among themselves.

After some time, a lot of the dragons have spent their whole hoard paying for stuff in freemium games. They don't feel they lost anything, though, since, as they say, "I have my hoard in my online account!"

ZH+365d - The following year, at the same gaming convention they first met our world, we can watch a spectacular final match going on between a Silver dragon and a Red dragon. They are playing Starcraft II. The Silver chose the Protoss, and was just about to launch a final, well structured attack. The Red, however, ended the game by making a massive, all-out rush using Zerglings. As it should be.

... In case anyone hasn't noticed yet, that was a joke XD

Seriously speaking, though, if the dragons appeared in NY's underground galleries, we wouldn't stand a chance. Specially if they sent their smartest Kobolds first.

awa

2013-01-08, 03:09 PM

in regards to the disadvantage of arrogance i do not believe it would be a big factor the first through are small and weak. new york is a huge city with lots of constructs (cars) running around making a tremendous amount of noise. massive building entirely lit with strange lights sound every where people using many strange devices. All this will be more then enough to convince kobolds and wyrmlings that the society in question might not be a push over and that they need more information.

One charm person + tongues spell and bam they have a fairly good idea what we can do. once someones shown them the internet they can just sit with a hat of disguise in a library researching our raw abilities on the computer.

artofregicide

2013-01-09, 12:50 AM

@Larkas: I think you just won, in my book.

I give you an internet cookie, coming from me, not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Nevertheless, I applaud you sir!

Larkas

2013-01-09, 09:19 AM

@Larkas: I think you just won, in my book.

I give you an internet cookie, coming from me, not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Nevertheless, I applaud you sir!

:smallredface: To be honest, that's the only way we would ever "win" that war! :smallbiggrin: