3.5 Skill Revamp

[JaronK]

One thing that's always annoyed me is that ranks in skills are so often trumped by bonuses... Divine Insight makes Clerics amazing at any skill they want, for example. And other times skills are just completely trumped by spells (Arcane Lock just beats Open Lock regardless of skill). And in general, I feel that skills are too often too weak in the late game. So, the following is an attempt to make ranks in skills actually useful (and there's a little condensation of skills). Note that this is a VERY rough draft.

General: Synergy bonuses give +2 to synergized skills for every 5 ranks in the appropriate skill. For example, a character with 10 ranks in one skill gets a +4 bonus to synergized skills. Note that synergy bonuses sometimes may apply to things other than skills.

Synergy bonuses and racial bonuses do count as ranks for purposes of the bonuses in this post only (not for qualifying for PrCs or feats or similar), though they do not count for triggering further synergy bonuses (no cycles of boosts!). Racial bonuses gained via polymorph or similar magic do not count as ranks for purposes of these bonuses.

Aid Another checks when using skills to aid another person's skills follow a similar pattern. A DC 10 check (taking 10 not allowed) is used, and the result is that the character gives a bonus of +2, with an additional +2 per 5 ranks they have in the skill to the other character.

Bonuses to a combined skill still only apply to relevant checks. Thus, being small gives a +4 bonus to Stealth rolls to remain unseen, but not to Stealth rolls to avoid being heard. If a class has any part of a combined skill on their skill list, they are treated as having the whole skill (so a Barbarian has Perception on their skill list despite having Listen, but not Spot).

Many skills have bonuses based on feats that give new uses for skills. If a character has that feat and gains the same bonus from skill ranks, the feat now gives a +2 bonus in the appropriate situation. Thus, Darkstalker grants a +2 bonus to hide from Scent after you have 5 ranks of Stealth.

Appraise: Gives a synergy bonus to Forgery and to Diplomacy checks to barter or negotiate costs for physical goods. When appraising common goods, on failure the error amount is 0%-200%, -10% (from both ends) per rank in Appraise (this means you cannot fail if you have 10 or more ranks). When appraising rare or exotic goods, a character with 10 ranks in Appraise guesses the value of the item at 0%-200 the actual value, -10% to both ends of the spectrum for each rank above 10 (meaning a character cannot fail to appraise the value of a rare or exotic item if the character has 20 or more ranks). Is used opposed to Forgery to detect forgeries. At 5 ranks, you may spend 8 hours and 50gp in materials to identify the magical properties of a magic item as though casting the Identify spell with a Appraise check, DC 10+Item's caster level. At 10 ranks, this takes 1 hour and 25gp in materials. At 15 ranks, this takes 1 minute and no materials. At 20 ranks, this takes 1 full round, and you may use this ability on Artifacts in 8 hours with 50gp in materials (DC 20+item caster level).

Balance: Combined with Tumble and Jump into a single skill called Acrobatics, uses Dexterity. Synergy bonus with Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) and Climb. For every 5 ranks in this skill, the bonus from Fighting Defensively increases by +1 AC and the bonus when taking a Total Defense action increases by +2 AC. At 10 ranks, you may make a DC 15 check to treat up to 4 squares of difficult terrain as normal terrain with regards to movement per round. At 15 ranks, you may make a DC 20 check to avoid being knocked prone.

Bluff: Combined with Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Gather Information into a new skill, Manipulation. Synergy bonus to Sleight of Hand, Sense Motive, and Disguise checks to act in character. When negotiating or attempting to influence another person's attitude towards you, each person rolls their overall Manipulation bonus and subtracts the other person's Sense Motive ranks to see how well they did. Note that Sense Motive gives a synergy bonus to saves vs Demoralization. When attempting to gather information, checks take 1d4+1 hours, -1 per 5 ranks in the skill. If this would be reduced below 1 hour, every 5 ranks beyond those necessary to reduce the time to an hour halves the time instead (thus, a character with 10 ranks in Manipulation who rolls a 1 for time takes 30 minutes to find the information). At 10 ranks, gain the benefit of the Master Manipulator feat (PHB2 pg 80) and the Urban Tracking feat (Races of Destiny pg154, Eberron Campaign Setting pg61, UA pg56).

Climb: Synergy bonus with Balance/Acrobatics. Your speed when climbing is 1/4 your normal ground speed, +5' per 5 ranks in the skill, to a maximum of your normal ground speed. When accelerated climbing, it's 1/2 your normal ground speed +5' per 5 ranks in the skill, to a maximum of your normal ground speed.

Concentration: Removed. Concentration checks related to spell casting now use Caster Level + stat bonus of the stat used to determine your save DCs. All other uses of Concentration (such as Diamond Mind maneuvers) now use Sense Motive.

Craft: Synergy Bonus to Appraise checks that were crafted via the same skill. Craft grants a synergy bonus to Mechanical Aptitude/Disable Device rolls to defeat the type of device as well as Search checks to locate the type of device (so Craft Trapmaking gives a synergy bonus to Search rolls to find traps). Your progress per week is your skill check * the craft DC * your craft ranks (minimum 1) in sp.

Additionally, for every 5 ranks you have in a given craft skill, you may chose one of the following bonuses: ability to add the Master's Forge abilities from Dragon 358 to ranged weapons, melee weapons, or armor (pick one of these for every 5 ranks); gain the benefits of the Dragoncraft feat; gain a +1 bonus to this skill for purposes of crafting progress per day or per week only.

Decipher Script: Merged with Spellcraft. Synergy bonus to Use Magic Device with scrolls, Disable Device checks to deal with runes and glyphs, and Search checks to find runic or glyph traps. For every 5 ranks in the skill, gain a +2 bonus to saves against glyphs and runes that are triggered by reading them.

Diplomacy: See Bluff/Manipulation

Disable Device: Merged with Open Lock and Use Rope into a new skill called Mechanical Aptitude, uses Intelligence. Synergy Bonus with Climb checks using mechanical assistance (such as ropes, pinions, or cables) and with Escape Artist checks to escape bindings (such as ropes or manacles). The DC to notice that the device you've disabled or sabotaged has been tampered with is 20+ your Disable Device ranks if you take the +5 DC penalty to try and not leave a trace. The DC to open a lock secured by Arcane Lock alone is 12+Casting Stat+Caster Level. The DC to open a lock secured by Arcane Lock augmenting a normal lock is increased by 2+Casting Stat+Caster Level.

Disguise: For every 5 ranks in the skill, you may ignore one of the usual negative modifiers for disguising yourself as something different from your intended look (such as age or gender or race)

Escape Artist: Synergy bonus with Mechanical Aptitude/Disable Device/Open Lock/Use Rope checks to bind or secure someone and with Grapple checks.

Forgery: Gives a synergy bonus to Appraise. For every 5 ranks in the skill, you may ignore one of the usual positive modifiers to the Appraise check to determine if an item was forged. Either Forgery or Appraise can be used to oppose Forgery to determine if an item is legitimate.

Gather Information: See Bluff/Manipulation

Handle Animal: Combined with Ride, uses Charisma. For every 5 ranks in the skill, you may teach an animal 1 more trick beyond the usual limit. Synergy Bonus with Appraise to know the value of an animal.

Heal: The benefits from Long Term Care are doubled for every 5 ranks in the skill (remember that a doubled doubling is a triple).

Hide: Combined into a new skill with Move Silently called Stealth. Synergy bonus with Perception (Listen + Spot). If you have 5 ranks in the skill, creatures with Scent must make a Perception or Survival roll, opposed by your Stealth, to detect you. If you have 10 ranks creatures with Blindsense must make a roll (usually Listen) to detect you, opposed by your stealth. With 15 ranks this applies to Tremorsense. With 20 ranks it applies to Blindsight. With 25 or more ranks, it applies to absolutely everything, and the Lifesense feat no longer causes you to glow if you are living.

Iaijutsu Focus: The maximum number of dice of extra damage gained with this skill is 1, +2 per 5 ranks in the skill. There is no other maximum to the damage granted by this skill, but the Improved Iaijutsu Focus Epic Feat removes even the rank based cap on the skill.

Intimidate: See Bluff/Diplomacy/Manipulation

Jump: See Balance/Acrobatics

Knowledge: Synergy bonuses apply. You may make untrained checks to identify creatures regardless of the DC. You may make untrained checks up to (and including) DC 15. For every 5 ranks in the skill, gain another piece of useful information when you succeed at the roll to know about something, and yet another piece for every 5 points by which you beat the DC (so a character with 10 ranks of Knowledge Religion who got a 29 to identify the strengths and weaknesses of a 18 HD undead would know 9 useful things about that creature). Knowledge (History) is renamed to Knowledge (History and Warfare), is merged with the Martial Lore skill, and gives a synergy bonus to Perception checks to notice an ambush, Initiative checks when a character is ambushing, and Diplomacy/Manipulation checks to boost morale in battle. Knowledge (Local) is renamed to Knowledge (Culture and Customs) and gives a synergy bonus to Diplomacy/Manipulation checks to negotiate prices and barter goods. At 5 ranks in any skill, gain the benefits of the Research feat (Eberron Campaign Setting page 59).

Listen: Combined with Spot into a new skill, Perception. Synergy bonus to Search. The DC to hear or spot something increases by +1 for every 10 feet you are from the source, but this penalty is then halved if you have 5 ranks in the skill (and is 1/3 as much if you have 10 ranks, 1/4 as much if you have 15 ranks, and so on). Note that creatures that are blind cannot make Perception checks based on sight, nor can creatures who are deaf make Perception checks based in sound. At 10 ranks, gain the benefits of the Keen-Eared Scout feat (PHB2 pg80).

Move Silently: See Hide/Stealth

Open Lock: See Disable Device/Mechanical Aptitude

Perform: Gives a synergy bonus to Manipulation/Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Gather Information, and to Craft checks to make performance props/musical instruments. Perform (Wind Instruments) gives a synergy bonus to saves vs inhaled poisons and nauseating vapors. You may hold your breath for either 2 times Con score rounds or 2 times Perform (Wind Instruments) ranks, whichever is greater. If you have 10 ranks in Perform (Comedy), gain the benefits of the Master of Mockery feat (DR333, As a standard action opponent must will save vs your Perform(Comedy) check or attack you instead of all others, opponent gets +2 Morale bonus to hit and -2 to AC, this is mind affecting and language dependent).

Profession: Gives a synergy bonus to related Craft skills (so Profession Sailor gives a synergy bonus to crafting anything commonly found on a boat). Profession (Sailor) gives a synergy bonus to Escape Artist checks involving rope and to Survival checks to predict the weather when on land (it may be used instead of Survival to predict the weather at sea). Profession (Soldier) gives a synergy bonus to identify the strengths and weaknesses of enemies. Profession (Merchant) gives a synergy bonus to Appraise. Profession (Farmer) gives a synergy bonus to Handle Animal. Generally, each Profession should grant synergy bonuses to one skill, or a bonus to one part of one or two skills.

Ride: See Handle Animal.

Search: Synergy bonus with Survival to follow/find tracks, to Perception/Listen/Spot checks within 30', Craft Trapmaking checks, and to saves to avoid being harmed by traps. At 5 ranks, gain the benefits of the Investigate feat (see Eberron Campaign Setting p56).

Sense Motive: Synergy bonus with Manipulation/Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate and to saves vs Demoralization. When negotiating or attempting to influence another person's attitude towards you, each person rolls their overall Manipulation bonus and subtracts the other person's Sense Motive ranks to see how well they did.

Sleight of Hand: Synergy bonus to Perception and Search rolls to find items concealed with Sleight of Hand, and to attack rolls against opponents who are flanked or whose dexterity bonus to AC is denied.

Speak Language: For every 5 languages you speak and can write in, not including Common, gain a +2 bonus to Decipher Script/Spellcraft.

Spellcraft: See Decipher Script.

Spot: See Listen/Perception.

Survival: All standard synergies apply. When making Survival checks to deal with severe weather, the bonus for succeeding at the DC 15 check is +2 to Fortitude saves per 5 ranks in Survival (minimum +1, at less than 5 ranks), or +4 per 5 ranks if stationary (minimum +2). Survival or Perception may be used to detect nearby characters via Scent, but when tracking Survival is always used. At 10 ranks, gain the benefits of the Track feat for free, and you may not become lost due to poor visibility or difficult terrain. At 15 ranks, you gain the benefits of the Astral Tracking feat (track creatures through the featureless Astral Plane with a DC of 25, or determine the destination of a Teleport spell or effect from the point of departure, DC 30, and if you can teleport you can teleport there as though you had seen the place once.

Swim: A successful Swim check allows you to swim one-quarter of your ground speed, +5' per 5 ranks in the skill to a maximum of your ground speed, as a move action or one-half your speed plus 5' per 5 ranks in the skill to a maximum of twice your ground speed as a full-round action.

Tumble: See Balance/Acrobatics.

Use Magic Device: Synergy Bonus to Decipher Script/Spellcraft for understanding spells on scrolls and magical inscriptions on items, and to the caster level of any spell you cast via an item.

Use Rope: See Disable Device/Mechanical Aptitude.

JaronK

[Morph Bark]

Hmmm, I like the gaining of extra stuff at 5 ranks or more. May use that myself as well. I especially like it for Hide, though that'd make Darkstalker more and more useless as you level.

What ability scores would Athletics/Gymnastics and the combo Ride/Handle Animal skills use though? (Or the others, if there are any other cross-score skill merges.)

[Midwoka]

You might wanna look at Pathfinder for merging skills, since they've got the same thing going on. Besides Stealth (Hide + Move Silently), Perception (Spot + Listen + Search), and Acrobatics (Jump + Balance + Tumble) like the ones you've got, they also tossed Open Lock into Disable Device (keeping that name, since a lock is just another device; no Use Rope in their version), made Gather Information into one use of Diplomacy, mixed a few skills to make Linguistics (Decipher Script + Forgery + Speak Language), ditched Use Rope (you wanna climb a rope? There's a Climb skill. Leave zen rope-fu to some bizarre Prestige Class...), and made Concentration a level-based thing so spellcasters don't have a skill point tax for something that should come with spellcaster levels anyway.

I really like your addition of Stealth ranks helping to foil other sensing abilities, though I can't see why Scent would use Survival when instead of Perception. It makes Perception's name misleading if it only applies to sight and sound.

[JaronK]

Hmmm, I like the gaining of extra stuff at 5 ranks or more. May use that myself as well. I especially like it for Hide, though that'd make Darkstalker more and more useless as you level.

I figure Darkstalker's advantage is that you actually get all that right away, but it shouldn't be so much of a feat tax. If you don't want it, you don't need it now. Maybe the feat could be changed so that it gives the current abilities, but then gives a +2 bonus to stealth checks to defeat a particular sense once that sense is defeated by your stealth ranks anyway?


What ability scores would Athletics/Gymnastics and the combo Ride/Handle Animal skills use though? (Or the others, if there are any other cross-score skill merges.)

Good call. Athletics/Gymnastics should be Dex (since it's mostly about physical agility), while Ride/Handle Animal should be Charisma (since it's about your ability to enforce your will on the animal). Mechanical Aptitude is Int, since it's your ability to understand how things work.


I really like your addition of Stealth ranks helping to foil other sensing abilities, though I can't see why Scent would use Survival when instead of Perception. It makes Perception's name misleading if it only applies to sight and sound.

Scent uses Survival currently, and lots of animals have Survival for that exact reason. I suppose I could just move it over though. That does make some sense. Most animals have decent perception scores anyway.

Acrobatics as the name for Jump/Tumble/Balance is certainly good, though I think I like Search and Perception being different. Gather Information with the rest of Manipulation makes sense, but Manipulation is so useful that I'm a bit worried it's too much.

Concentration being ditched entirely does make sense, but I'd need another skill to replace it where it's used in other ways (like Diamond Mind maneuvers). Sense Motive, perhaps, as it represents your ability to understand things around you?

JaronK

[NichG]

Rank-based stuff really is the way to do it. I've done something similar for my current campaign and I think its basically resolved a good portion of this issue (at least, despite people being able to magic their skill checks up into the 50-60 range purely based on spell use, people are still bothering to actually invest in stuff).

[JaronK]

So what changes have you made in this area, then?

JaronK

[NichG]

Acrobatics (replaces Balance and Tumble)
Minimum 15 ranks to tumble through an enemy's square avoiding AoOs.

Athletics (replaces Climb and Swim)
At 5 ranks, this can be used in place of a grapple check for defensive grapples.
At 10 ranks, a character can 1/encounter gain an extra move action. At 15 ranks this is 2/encounter. After an encounter in which this ability is used, the character's fatigue is advanced one step.

Craft
Magic item creation and mundane item creation have a minimum Craft skill rank requirement based on the value of the item (going to about 16 ranks for a 100k gp item).

Decipher Script (now includes Forgery)
At 5 ranks, you can compare handwriting to see if it was the same writer, which is either DC 15 or an opposed check. This can also be used to see if the same writing implement was used (e.g. same pen, same typewriter, etc).

At 10 ranks, you can analyze handwriting to determine the emotional state of the author, as well as a number of personality traits based on how well you succeed.

Diplomacy
Special new uses of Diplomacy are gained at 5, 10, and 15 ranks. This includes 'I didn't say that' kind of stuff, as well as determining things about what the other side of the negotiation expects, their traditions, etc.

Disable Device
5 ranks. User can try to determine the trigger of a trap without any risk of setting it off. This does not let them disable the trap, but allows them to step around the trigger if physically possible.
10 ranks. User gains Trapfinding if they did not previously have it.

Heal
Can be used to heal various status conditions at different ranks, mostly custom to my campaign. Basically, at 8 ranks it can cure things like Blindness/Deafness and Silence. At 12 ranks it can cure something equivalent to spell slot drain. At 16 ranks it can cure stuff like being Dimension Anchored.

Sense Motive
5 ranks. Gauge enemy. You can basically determine an enemy's rough level of power relative to your own.
5 ranks. Determine emotion. You can determine a target's current emotional state.
10 ranks. Predict action. You can predict an enemy's next action in combat given the current battlefield situation (opposed check).
15 ranks. Sense Aura. You can make a DC 40 check to determine the aura of a magical item - not like detect magic, but things like the alignment of the item's creator. At DC 60, you can determine the emotional aura associated even with a nonmagical item (e.g. this knife was used in a murder).

[Zman]

I've played around with a skill Varient aimed at incentivizing diversity and multi skill selection.

Cross class skills do not have double cost, but are still cappted at half max value like class skills.

Based upon the ranks being added the cost in skill points increases with specialization. For example..

Ranks 1-5 : 1 skill point
Ranks 6-10: 2 skill points
Ranks 11-15: 3 skill points
Ranks 16-20: 4 skill points
Ranks 21+: 5 skill points

It adds an opportunity cost wih specializing and allows some characters to limit specialization and gain a wider array of skills, even normal cross class skills.

[tarkisflux]

If you're not going to do anything to the skill mechanics themselves, then giving them bigger bonuses via synergy checks is a decent way to get them to matter a bit more. The aid another thing is solid too, and most of the little skill tweaks and perks look useful (or at least non-damaging).

Wondering about a couple of things though.

I'm not really seeing how a boost to aid another and synergy bonuses solves the bonus vs. ranks issue that you mention at the start though. Sure, they're ranks based, but they are bonuses that stack with ranks and other bonuses and lead to your ranks being an even smaller portion of your skill bonus total.
I'm also curious why you rolled all of the social skills together. It also seems like that would put the skill on pretty much everyone's list, and make having Sense Motive on your list a big deal for resisting the much more prevalent skill.

Mind walking through your thoughts on these?


So what changes have you made in this area, then?

JaronK

If you're looking for alternative skill takes on the ranks based progression, there's my own work (a small hosted portion is linked in my sig, I'm in the middle of a formatting change on the wiki side that will get ported back here eventually) and the version of it that the GnG guys were working on (link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260221)). They both deal with the bonuses replacing ranks problem by simply writing it out, and take the "new or better abilities unlocked at rank X" idea rather far by granting multiple sub-abilities or boosts in each skill at different times.

[JaronK]

I'm not really seeing how a boost to aid another and synergy bonuses solves the bonus vs. ranks issue that you mention at the start though. Sure, they're ranks based, but they are bonuses that stack with ranks and other bonuses and lead to your ranks being an even smaller portion of your skill bonus total.

But the amount you can boost with Aid Another and Synergy is determined by ranks. With Aid Another, I was imagining things like a single master smith in his workshop with many apprentices helping to create large amounts of weapons for an army. Currently, the apprentices really don't need many ranks to be useful... even your basic Commoner with an Int of 12 in a Fancy Smithy with Masterwork Smithing Tools (+4 Circumstance bonus, Stronghold Builder's Guide) gives the full +2 bonus most of the time. Now having apprentices with actual ranks in the skill does a lot more. Plus, of course, the smith having 10 ranks himself makes him work 10 times as fast as he currently does, so we can easily imagine a sizable workshop supplying a small armies.


I'm also curious why you rolled all of the social skills together. It also seems like that would put the skill on pretty much everyone's list, and make having Sense Motive on your list a big deal for resisting the much more prevalent skill.


They all flowed together so naturally, but I was indeed worried that this was too much. On the one hand, I like characters having a breadth of out of combat skills, and I know many DMs want their PCs to have access to talking abilities. On the other hand, it's a very obvious choice of a skill since it does so much. So I'm certainly debating. I know I want Diplomacy and Intimidate together (they work so similarly), but if push comes to shove I could of course pull Gather Information out. Still, I feel like GI gets used so little that it shouldn't be its own skill.

I do like the idea of unlocking new abilities at certain skill ranks (I did it with hide, and I'm about to adjust Craft to bring that in as well).

EDIT: Just added in a bunch of those abilities, all based on various feats that improve your skill usages found in various books and Dragon Magazines.

JaronK

[tarkisflux]

But the amount you can boost with Aid Another and Synergy is determined by ranks. With Aid Another, I was imagining things like a single master smith in his workshop with many apprentices helping to create large amounts of weapons for an army. Currently, the apprentices really don't need many ranks to be useful... even your basic Commoner with an Int of 12 in a Fancy Smithy with Masterwork Smithing Tools (+4 Circumstance bonus, Stronghold Builder's Guide) gives the full +2 bonus most of the time. Now having apprentices with actual ranks in the skill does a lot more. Plus, of course, the smith having 10 ranks himself makes him work 10 times as fast as he currently does, so we can easily imagine a sizable workshop supplying a small armies.


So, it's okay if you have a bonus larger than your rank total as long as it comes from other skill investment, mundane gear, and someone else's ranks and actions, just not spells and caster actions? Don't get me wrong, I don't want spells getting in on the skill bonus game at all (I'm actually ok with Knock being a limited use "just open it" spell and would prefer to boost open lock to compete, but I utterly despise Glibness), it just seems like you're solving a different problem than you declared at the start. Which is fine if that's what you wanted, it's just a bit confusing.


They all flowed together so naturally, but I was indeed worried that this was too much. On the one hand, I like characters having a breadth of out of combat skills, and I know many DMs want their PCs to have access to talking abilities. On the other hand, it's a very obvious choice of a skill since it does so much. So I'm certainly debating. I know I want Diplomacy and Intimidate together (they work so similarly), but if push comes to shove I could of course pull Gather Information out. Still, I feel like GI gets used so little that it shouldn't be its own skill.

I can see merging them because the results are so similar, but the way that they get to those results are sufficiently different that I elected to keep them separate. Diplomancy lets you talk people into doing things and have them be your friends afterwards, while intimidate lets you coerce people into doing things and have them resent / avoid you afterwards. There is a difference in the back end of those abilities that makes the characters using them feel different and that I thought worth expanding on. That presumes some things about social encounter / campaign design, but it was a thing I wanted to explore a bit. So far it's worked to broaden social utility (because pretty much everyone has one of more of these) without diluting character differentiation.

I agree that GI doesn't see a lot of use though, and it is a good candidate for merging into another skill. It rolls into pretty much any method of NPC interaction pretty cleanly. My solution was to just drop it, and let you either make friends with people to get them to tell you things, intimidate them into telling you things, or trick them into telling you things by lying at them (since I also elected to keep Bluff separate). It takes longer to resolve, which may be counter to your goals, but it seemed more immersive and entertaining that way (which limited playtesting supports), and so worth it for me.

Whether you keep them split or merge them, since you're not tackling large bonuses (and are rather increasing them instead) you need any counter for a skill check to have similarly large bonuses if it isn't just going to be ignored. So another skill, like Sense Motive, is going to be good at doing that in ways that a save or level check will not be. I'm tempted to suggest that you merge sense motive with perception so that pretty much everyone will have access to both the social grease and the social block, but it might be a bit of a stretch. If you keep the social skills separate after all, pointing one of them at Perception instead of Sense Motive is probably worth considering just to break up the social attack / defense considerations. Otherwise, I'd consider assigning everyone Sense Motive if the Perception merge proves too much. If basically everyone has a particular style of attack, everyone needs a defense (or at least the option of one) IMO.

[JaronK]

So, it's okay if you have a bonus larger than your rank total as long as it comes from other skill investment, mundane gear, and someone else's ranks and actions, just not spells and caster actions? Don't get me wrong, I don't want spells getting in on the skill bonus game at all (I'm actually ok with Knock being a limited use "just open it" spell and would prefer to boost open lock to compete, but I utterly despise Glibness), it just seems like you're solving a different problem than you declared at the start. Which is fine if that's what you wanted, it's just a bit confusing.

Well, mundane gear has no effect on it (pretty much anyone can hit the DC 10 to Aid Another no matter what, but now the boost is much higher if they had ranks). So it's really just your own skill ranks and other people's skill ranks that matters. The result is that ranks matter, which was the point. Maybe I'd only have Aid Another boost skills for purposes of all these bonuses at all if the person doing the aiding had 5 ranks already (so, with no ranks it works just like it currently does, but with 5 ranks it can increase synergy bonuses and such like).


I can see merging them because the results are so similar, but the way that they get to those results are sufficiently different that I elected to keep them separate. Diplomancy lets you talk people into doing things and have them be your friends afterwards, while intimidate lets you coerce people into doing things and have them resent / avoid you afterwards. There is a difference in the back end of those abilities that makes the characters using them feel different and that I thought worth expanding on. That presumes some things about social encounter / campaign design, but it was a thing I wanted to explore a bit. So far it's worked to broaden social utility (because pretty much everyone has one of more of these) without diluting character differentiation.

Yeah, I'm torn here. But both are about manipulating people into doing what you want... Diplomacy is just usually doing it a bit nicer (but they might be horribly upset if you con them) and Intimidate is doing it a bit meaner. Still, I could put together Bluff and Intimidate (the more hostile social skills) while Diplomacy and Gather Information get grouped as the more friendly ones.


...Otherwise, I'd consider assigning everyone Sense Motive if the Perception merge proves too much. If basically everyone has a particular style of attack, everyone needs a defense (or at least the option of one) IMO.

An interesting idea, and note that this is one of many fixes... the Fighter fix I've played with adds Sense Motive to that class, in part because they shouldn't be so easily manipulated if they're supposed to be guards. I'm okay with some classes being weak to social attacks, as that just means a party or a guard post or whatever just needs the person in charge of social interactions to have the appropriate defenses. After all, you probably should be able to manipulate a Barbarian or Paladin, but we'd expect the guy in charge of paying troops/guarding the merchandise/allowing people into the ball to be a bureaucrat (Expert?) or something who can order the meat heads to not let you in/have the money/whatever.

JaronK

[Jane_Smith]

Id suggest combining Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Gather Information - plus other similar sub-skill uses like Seduction, Bartering, Rallying, etc into a single skill. In my games, its simply called Influence (Cha). Things that give a bonus to diplomacy, bluff, seduction, etc give only a bonus to that sub-use of the influence skill still. Obviously, creatures like t-rex's and birds can't use advanced uses of Influence, but could still use the skill for basic intimidation/etc checks on a primal level (After all, they have a charisma score for a reason - a roar is a terrifying thing). The idea is basically all the charisma skills of that type are the exact same thing and a form of social manipulation and understanding. Someone whos a master diplomat would naturally be just as good at subterfuge, blatantly lying to spare his behind, and making threats that could make kings pale - separating them is just silly and to much bookwork.

[tarkisflux]

An interesting idea, and note that this is one of many fixes... the Fighter fix I've played with adds Sense Motive to that class, in part because they shouldn't be so easily manipulated if they're supposed to be guards. I'm okay with some classes being weak to social attacks, as that just means a party or a guard post or whatever just needs the person in charge of social interactions to have the appropriate defenses. After all, you probably should be able to manipulate a Barbarian or Paladin, but we'd expect the guy in charge of paying troops/guarding the merchandise/allowing people into the ball to be a bureaucrat (Expert?) or something who can order the meat heads to not let you in/have the money/whatever.

Manipulate them by trickery, sure. And sweet-talking the Barbarian? Certainly. But do you think that a Barbarian or Palladin should be more susceptible to Intimidation and other fear tactics than a Fighter? One of them is big, scary, and angry while the other is fear immune and radiates bravery. I guess you could patch any weirdness on the class side though.

[Nightraiderx]

I think the solution is to separate hard social skills (diplomacy, intimidation)n and soft social skills (bluff, seduction). Pooling them into one gives too large of an amount of bonuses to a character. A sneaky charasimatic rouge would be good at soft social skills (such as bluffing and lieing their way out of a situation) while a barbarian or a paladin would use hard social skills (threatening to do something, or offering one thing for another). It would be too useful a skill and easily manipulated. I do like many of the ideas presented here and would like to use this skill system in a project I am making (all credit will go to the people who created them). So I present as an idea this:
Manipulation(Cha): soft social skills such as innuendo (hidden meaning), bluff, seduction. Synergy with feint in combat as an added bonus

Influence(Cha): hard social skills such as intimidation, diplomacy and rallying.
The synergy with aid another bonuses in battle and such.

[JaronK]

Manipulate them by trickery, sure. And sweet-talking the Barbarian? Certainly. But do you think that a Barbarian or Palladin should be more susceptible to Intimidation and other fear tactics than a Fighter? One of them is big, scary, and angry while the other is fear immune and radiates bravery. I guess you could patch any weirdness on the class side though.

Well, Fighters are supposed to be guards and veteran soldiers who've seen it all, so I feel they should be a bit harder to manipulate and trick than savage warriors who think that hitting it with their ax ought to solve almost anything.

Figuring out exactly how the social skills ought to be combined/divided is a bit tough. I feel like Barbarians and such ought to be able to Intimidate but do little else (But I could just give them a bonus to Manipulation bonuses to Intimidate only, and not give them it as a class skill). Rogues ought to be able to handle all of it, really. Gather Information needs to be combined with something, and both Bluff and Diplomacy work well there (both skills are important to subtly learn about something). Bluff naturally fits with Diplomacy and Intimidate, as both heavily involve, well, bluffing.

I wonder if the solution is just to add bonuses and penalties that make them work better for each class. Keep it all one skill, but give bonuses to Intimidating based on your strength score, size, infamy, and reputation for killing things while Diplomacy gets bonuses based on your rank, fame, and reputation for being a decent fellow and all that. That way there's a reason to pick the intimidation route.

JaronK

[willpell]

One thing I want to see in a skills-related homebrew (probably not one quite as extensive as the OP; I like being able to play out of the books with minimal adjustment): a comprehensive rundown of exactly what skills can and cannot be used when your body and/or your mind is not that of a humanoid with humanlike intelligence. Familiars, psicrystals, animal companions, polymorph forms, monster PCs - the number of reasons why you need to know whether a celestial weasel polymorphed into a monkey can make a Profession (Wagon Drover) check are not small.