Why are dwarvees considered good?

[Story]

I've seen several references to dwarves being the best race in 3.5ed, such as here (http://agc.deskslave.org/files/ex105.html), and I can't figure out why.

From what I can see, the only really good traits are +2 CON and +2 to saving throws. Constitution is a nice bonus that works well with any class, assuming you don't need charisma, but it doesn't scream BEST RACE EVAR.

If you restrict yourself to the basic races, Humans really can fit well with any class thanks to the all important bonus feat. If you consider more races, you get stuff like the Strongheart Halfing. Heck, the Whipser Gnome is almost strictly better than the Dwarf.

[TuggyNE]

Here I thought this was going to be an alignment thread.

Dwarves aren't the best LA +0 race, but they are quite good, due mainly to the Con bonus (whisper gnomes, if memory serves, are one of the very best LA +0 races around, and some argue they should be LA +1).

[SilverLeaf167]

I've never heard of dwarves being the best. :smallconfused:
Actually, they're more often used for a sort of comedic value, since everyone finds Gimli and little bearded men in general quite entertaining. The races most commonly considered to be the best are humans, simply because of their bonus feat. Strongheart halflings are effectively a small-size equivalent.

That link seems more like a joke to me.

[Phelix-Mu]

That did not at all seem to be a reliable source. I could barely find anything to do with dwarves.

The basic reason for dwarves being a decent choice of race from PHB is that they get a bonus to Con, which is good for every type of character that ever expects to be in a fight...basically everyone. On the other hand, there are only two classes that really are hurt by a Cha penalty, and since both bard and sorcerer are pretty easy classes to problem-fix with, you can definitely work around the penalty.

Likewise, fighter as favored class is useful in many builds, as a fighter dip is always good for bonus feats and big HD.

Everything else about them is decent to good. Only real weakness is movement speed, and this can be remedied in any number of ways, and isn't a gamebreaker for most classes.

Any other inflation about GREATEST RACE EVER is probably fanboy/girlism, just someone exaggerating. In terms of build flexibility, human and strongheart halfling have the edge, IMO.

[BowStreetRunner]

I read through the entire post about the DM banning dwarves and the last dwarf PC ever...funny.

Anyway, in my experience the decision by a DM to ban something like that probably has more to do with the relative optimization abilities of the players and less to do with the race itself. If one player has high op skills and none of the others do, that player will usually create something that seems overly powerful. It's just a knee-jerk reaction by the DM to try to ban some element of that build in response.

Here, you might have had a DM who had bad experiences with one or more players with high op skills - who all happened to have played dwarves. So the DM assumes the problem is dwarves and bans them. This is just a false cause fallacy at work.

[BRC]

Dwarves are good because of Fistbeard Beardfist.

but seriously.

Dwarves are one of those races fairly tailor made for a specific class, and they come pre-loaded with lots of nifty bonuses.
Everybody likes a Con bonus, especially fighters.
They get to use Dwarven War Axes as martial weapons. If you are playing a Sword and Board fighter that's an average +1 damage.
They have movement speed 20, but as a Fighter you'll be wearing heavy armor anyway.
Bonus against Orcs and Goblinoids: Some of the most iconic monster types.
Bonuses against Giants: see above.
Resistance to Spells, SLA's, and Poisons: That's a +2 bonus on a decent chunk of saving throws out there.
Some random Skill bonuses.

It's not the best race out there. Really, of the core races, Human is the best to take in just about any situation for the Bonus feat.
Dwarves also carry a little more of a unique Flavor than other core races.

[ericgrau]

+2 con, +2 saves, no real drawback (cha? bah) and 10 million minor special abilities. It isn't LA 1 but for LA 0 it's pretty high up there. They work well with pretty much any class; even the cha based ones aren't hampered that much. Heck a paladin actually gains more saves than he loses.

Outside of the player's handbook yes there are a few better options, but among the PH seven they are perhaps the 2nd best. And in a core only game they may often be better than human too.

Oh and they're fun to role play yet in a friendly way rather than in ways that piss off the party.

[docnessuno]

+2 to a stat useful (ofter 2nd or 3rd in priority) to 95% of characters
-2 to the most common dump stat around
Darkvision
Familiarity with some decent weapons
+4 against two common combat manouvers
+2 against 50-90% of the saves you will be rolling
Situational combat bonuses
+2 on a large number of skills
A limited form of trapfinding

Overall this makes for the second best race in core, and one of the best outside core.

[Arkusus]

I'm actually a big fan of dwarves if used proper, so I'll throw in a few reasons I haven't seen yet.

First off, 'best race evar' depends very much on the class you're going to be playing... The stereotypical tropes have Dwarves as fighters, and up-close-sturdy types, rather than back-row casters, which fits for the race features.

Con bonus is great for melee classes who are going to take hits, but they also get some other very nice traits. Their landspeed actually isn't much of a factor for a heavy melee build (since dwarves aren't slown down by platemail, keeping them toe-to-toe with simmilarly equipped versions of other races)

Darkvision is nothing to scoff at, though the usefulness of this depends much on the campaign and the DM, and if he's going to actually impose light level penalties on you.

Additionally, the dwarf gets a truckload of circumstantial bonuses if you just remember them when the time comes.

Going along with the heavy-fighter trope, charisma is a fitting dump-stat for the clueless meat-shield

And finally, the dwarf gets free access to an exotic weapon (if he gets martial weapons from his class) which is another little boost.




As far as I'm concerned, the dwarf is generally fine (Con FTW), but if you're willing to go all-in on the meat-head lunk of a melee fighter, the dwarf has a lot of abilities that synergize quite nicely with it.

It's also entertaining (at least to me) that the dwarves mechanical bonuses tell you almost as much about dwarf racial flavor as any of the actual flavor text does. It's fun when it works out that way.



But yeah. Generally I say "Dwarves are great as long as you know you're making a Dwarf." I'll tip my hat to humans if you're looking for the most universally effective race.

[Greenish]

Dwarves can tumble in full plate (even without the 2000 gp magic item). How overpowered is that? :smallamused:

[demigodus]

I will point out that the GM in that case article is very trigger happy with banning. About half of a dwarf's miscellaneous abilities have been banned over the course of the articles, indicating that that might be his main issue with them.

However, he also plays a game where blasting casters are pushing the boundary of OP, so those articles are simply at a different optimization level from what many on here employ. By those standards, dwarves might beat humans, just cause at low op, an extra feat doesn't go as far as in high op.

[Andezzar]

Dwarves can tumble in full plate (even without the 2000 gp magic item). How overpowered is that? :smallamused:How is tumbling in Full Plate restricted? The penalty might hurt but it is not forbidden outright. What magic item are you talking about?

[DeltaEmil]

How is tumbling in Full Plate restricted? The penalty might hurt but it is not forbidden outright. What magic item are you talking about?You normally can't tumble if your speed is restricted because of armor, excess equipment or loot. Since dwarves do not suffer any speed penalty for wearing heavy armor, they can tumble in heavy armor, provided the dwarf is strong enough to not count the heavy armor as excess equipment or so.

[ericgrau]

I will point out that the GM in that case article is very trigger happy with banning. About half of a dwarf's miscellaneous abilities have been banned over the course of the articles, indicating that that might be his main issue with them.

However, he also plays a game where blasting casters are pushing the boundary of OP, so those articles are simply at a different optimization level from what many on here employ. By those standards, dwarves might beat humans, just cause at low op, an extra feat doesn't go as far as in high op.

The comic on that same website uses a lot of high op tricks, though most of the worst offenders are left out and sometimes mentioned as banned. Still above average op rather than below average. They are worse than a lot of the theoretical op discussed here, but better than what most people actually play. What's "high op" also varies from gaming group to gaming group, while within a single forum opinions are more consistent. Even going to different forums you'll find a somewhat different set of opinions that most members are adamant about.

There are ways to make blasters major contenders for the strongest party member at above average op too.

Getting ban happy on dwarves does seem a bit pointless. As high end as they are they still fit within LA 0 better than LA 1. If you're nit picky you could do a couple minor things I suppose. They only removed the bonus to resist tripping, which by itself is no big deal.

[JaronK]

I thought this was going to be an alignment thread too, and I was going to mention my evil aztec style xenophobic dwarves from one game I ran...

Anyway, Dwarves are a solid race with lots of bonuses, including a stat boost to a very useful stat and a penalty to a stat that's easy to dump. But are they the best ever? Not really. They've got one amazing Dwarf only PrC (Runesmith), but Gnomes have Shadowcraft Mages while Kobolds have... well, really silly stuff. They've got lots of bonuses, few of which really matter much. All in all, they're solid, and make good tanks and good other things too.

For stealthers, I'd prefer a nice Whispergnome. For casters, it's tough to beat Gnomes (entirely for Shadowcraft Mage), Humans (One more metamagic feat!) or Kobolds (Dragonwrought! Greater Draconic Rite of Passage! Loredrake!). For melees, Dragonborn Water Orc is really nasty (Headlong Rush! +4 Str and Con! Flight or Breath Weapon!).

JaronK

[demigodus]

The comic on that same website uses a lot of high op tricks, though most of the worst offenders are left out and sometimes mentioned as banned. Still above average op rather than below average. They are worse than a lot of the theoretical op discussed here, but better than what most people actually play. What's "high op" also varies from gaming group to gaming group, while within a single forum opinions are more consistent. Even going to different forums you'll find a somewhat different set of opinions that the members are all adamant about.

There are ways to make blasters major contenders for the strongest party member at above average op too.

Getting ban happy on dwarves does seem a bit pointless. As high end as they are they still fit within LA 0 better than LA 1. If you're nit picky you could do a couple minor things I suppose. They only removed the bonus to resist tripping, which by itself is no big deal.

I have read the comic. However, I have read a good bit of the excerpts from his games. The two are run at rather different levels of optimization as far as I can tell.

Probably because the guy writing the comics is not the DM in his game.

[Starbuck_II]

I've seen several references to dwarves being the best race in 3.5ed, such as here (http://agc.deskslave.org/files/ex105.html), and I can't figure out why.

From what I can see, the only really good traits are +2 CON and +2 to saving throws. Constitution is a nice bonus that works well with any class, assuming you don't need charisma, but it doesn't scream BEST RACE EVAR.



Read what you wrote. They are useful for any class.
Only one that competes if human and this is only if you are a Cha based caster.

[LTwerewolf]

Runesmith, lost traditions. Wizard in heavy armor with ridiculous hp. Huzzah!

[JaronK]

Runesmith in Races of Stone is brutal. The heavy armor thing is just a random perk. The big thing is you can take any spell that costs xp or has a long casting time and turn it into a spell like ability (costs you the normal xp cost for casting it once). How about Animate Dread Warrior so I can have an unlimited size army of PC classed allies all faithful to me? I can make two of those per day. Also, with True Creation 2/day, I can create any mundane gear I want for them, or just unlimited wealth (selling giant blocks of Adamantine or something) so I can buy gear for my army. Or whatever else I want to do.

Such an underrated class...

JaronK

[toapat]

I thought this was going to be an alignment thread too, and I was going to mention my evil aztec style xenophobic dwarves from one game I ran...

Anyway, Dwarves are a solid race with lots of bonuses, including a stat boost to a very useful stat and a penalty to a stat that's easy to dump. But are they the best ever? Not really. They've got one amazing Dwarf only PrC (Runesmith), but Gnomes have Shadowcraft Mages while Kobolds have... well, really silly stuff. They've got lots of bonuses, few of which really matter much. All in all, they're solid, and make good tanks and good other things too.

For stealthers, I'd prefer a nice Whispergnome. For casters, it's tough to beat Gnomes (entirely for Shadowcraft Mage), Humans (One more metamagic feat!) or Kobolds (Dragonwrought! Greater Draconic Rite of Passage! Loredrake!). For melees, Dragonborn Water Orc is really nasty (Headlong Rush! +4 Str and Con! Flight or Breath Weapon!).

JaronK

At the end of the day, a Dwarf is still a short, drunk, and bearded Scandinavian.

While a Kobold? A Kobold is still a dragon.


Runesmith, lost traditions. Wizard in heavy armor with ridiculous hp. Huzzah!

What da ya mean it taint wizard clothing? I cast in Full plate, Me Pappy did, his pappy before him, and deir fatha's before them.

[LTwerewolf]

Definitely one of my favorite classes, along with factotum. It bring wizard in an entirely different direction than most people seem to go.

[Greenish]

What magic item are you talking about?Tooth of Savnok, ToM.

[Spuddles]

They also get MWP with what is basically a bastard sword.

In core only setting, dwarves are really solid, especially at low to mid levels thanks to all the small but typically relevant bonuses.

[Starbuck_II]

They also get MWP with what is basically a bastard sword.

In core only setting, dwarves are really solid, especially at low to mid levels thanks to all the small but typically relevant bonuses.

Agreed, if 1/2 Elfs got those bonuses: they would have been used more.
Granted most elven bonuses were hidden in the monster manual (elves taste terrible, can't paralyze them, scared of elves, etc).

[Tokuhara]

My view is that dwarf is on the High end of what 0LA can be (in the same grouping as Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling, and arguably Lesser Aasimar). While I admit that Human is pretty much a go-to, a lot of what dwarf has access to (Deepstone Sentinel, Deepwarden, and Dwarven Armor Proficiency as a good racal feat you can grab) as well as roughly +1 HP/level in comparison to the human counterpart and Darkvision, it's no wonder that my group, our Rule 1 is "Send the Dwarf in First" because 9 times out of 10, he's the guy on-average with the most HP, best AC, and Darkvision that has no Light Sensitivity.

On a personal note, Dwarves are my go-to for Druid, Cleric, and Barbarian (short of Warforged, but they're kinda OP)

[dantiesilva]

Dwarf+2 levels Spellthief =+6 to will saves without wisdom modifier +2 to the 3 to the others. Not anything to laugh at. Add in Pious Templar mettle and now you have a problem. Can a dwarf be optimized to resist any spell thrown at it? Yes. do most people do it? No because most people do not use spellthief that I have noticed.

And dwarf clerics are very fun I agree.

[Vaz]

Good Con doubles up the benefit from a high Hit Die; while negating the penalty of a low class. Charisma is the one stat which almost all Classes can dump; while some classes which use it without being SAD have other ability scores to boost themselves (ie Cleric; Wis, can even use Eagle's Splendour to up his Charisma for Turning while Feats can cover up for other benefits if you wish; even Gold Dwarf can at least neautralise its Cha penalty.

Also, they have a large amount of support and racial substitution as well as variants (Gold Dwarves etc) from UA.

[JaronK]

Speaking of variants, I'm pretty sure there's a Dwarf with favored class: Wizard. Does anybody remember which one that is?

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

Granted most elven bonuses were hidden in the monster manual (elves taste terrible, can't paralyze them, scared of elves, etc).

Ghouls can't paralyze them, no. Anything else, including ghasts? No problem. :smalltongue:

[Juntao112]

Ghouls can't paralyze them, no. Anything else, including ghasts? No problem. :smalltongue:

Indeed.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0107.gif

[Mirakk]

What you've witnessed is in fact a phenomena in the D&D Community that has been going on for some time.

You see, Dwarves have something of a cult following in the community. For every 3 noobs who love Legolas and worship the ground he walks on, there's a Dwarf Supremacist in the mix that loves everything about Dwarves.

When people say Dwarves are the best race, it's a commentary on their culture, personality, and affinities moreso than their actual racial traits. 20 foot movement speed is a liability on some classes, but I happily suffer it because you know something? A Dwarf Ranger or Rogue are pretty awesome, and they make great characters all the same. I play Dwarves because Dwarves are fun to play. You get to hoard gold and call people's BS all day long, while fighting against evil and making snide remarks about Frilly McGreenpants the elf in the party all day while downing pints of garnet wine like they're going out of style! And if someone challenges your authority to act like you know better? Ohyeah, there's a fistfight coming, and you can be sure it'll be entertaining.

It's all about what you find fun!

[Starbuck_II]

Ghouls can't paralyze them, no. Anything else, including ghasts? No problem. :smalltongue:

Carrison Crawlers say don't forget me. :smallfrown:

[Story]

Why are elves specifically immune to ghouls anyway?

[SilverLeaf167]

Why are elves specifically immune to ghouls anyway?
The writers probably intended to expand this immunity to (at least) ghasts, but simply forgot. It's an oversight.
As for the reason WHY they're immune in the first place, maybe some designer thought to himself that "paralyzation is sorta like sleep, right?" :smallwink:

[Andezzar]

The writers probably intended to expand this immunity to (at least) ghasts, but simply forgot. It's an oversight.
As for the reason WHY they're immune in the first place, maybe some designer thought to himself that "paralyzation is sorta like sleep, right?" :smallwink:Where does it say that elves are immune to paralysis? In the SRD I can only find immunity to sleep. That is a different effect.

[TuggyNE]

Where does it say that elves are immune to paralysis? In the SRD I can only find immunity to sleep. That is a different effect.

In the ghoul entry. And it's not most paralysis, only certain very specific types.


The writers probably intended to expand this immunity to (at least) ghasts, but simply forgot. It's an oversight.

No, it isn't (at least it's not in 3.5). The entry on ghasts notes it specifically.


As for the reason WHY they're immune in the first place, maybe some designer thought to himself that "paralyzation is sorta like sleep, right?" :smallwink:

I suspect "legacy", personally, some kind of weird thing from the very early days of D&D, but I'm not much of an authority.

[willpell]

Tooth of Savnok, ToM.

Which is explicitly a one-of-a-kind item, so I wouldn't put too much stock in the ability to purchase it for just 2000 gp.


When people say Dwarves are the best race, it's a commentary on their culture, personality, and affinities moreso than their actual racial traits.

I've never particularly liked dwarves, just because they seem more like a subset of humans than a different race. Your post nicely summarizes why they might be beloved - but there's nothing about their culture or attitude that wouldn't work for short humans who live underground and develop the same kind of tight-knit communities. All dwarves really gain is darkvision and a 400-year lifespan, both of which humans can theoretically gain through technology or magic.

The reason I strongly prefer elves, despite agreeing with the "dwarves are no-BS buttkickers" and "elves are full-of-themselves pansies" perspectives, is that elves actually feel different from humans (apart from Samara Morgan). Because they never sleep. In my campaign, I was fully prepared to declare that the entire elf race were functionally high-functioning schizophrenics, having gone insane from lack of sleep so long ago that they turned their dysfunction into a new normal and rebuilt society around their acclimation, and now they've come all the way back around to sane but in a way that's still a little "off" and fundamentally un-human. I backed off from this portrayal for the benefit of a player from a Forgotten Realms background who didn't think it was appropriate, but it's still the way I tend to automatically think of them regardless of campworld.

EDIT - Everything after this point (except for an anecdote at the end) was Ninja'ed by Tuggyne.


The writers probably intended to expand this immunity to (at least) ghasts, but simply forgot.

Oh no, it's very explicit in the Ghoul/Ghast entry, at least in 3E. I think it was done to make Ghasts look more dangerous by comparison to ghouls; D&D did a lot of this sort of left-handed logic in its early days when Gary Gygax was pulling stuff out of his Portable Hole to keep his players off-balance every week, and then it was all enshrined as holy writ by TSR and carried forward thusly by Wotco (while they were busy tying the rules into awkwardly-worded knots filled with both omission and redundancy in baffling abundance).


Where does it say that elves are immune to paralysis? In the SRD I can only find immunity to sleep. That is a different effect.

Elves are *not* immune to paralysis. They are immune to *one* specific creature's paralysis attack, and not even the stronger version of that creature. I don't know whether to be glad or sad that they didn't do any of this stuff in later books; it woulda been kinda funny if Races of Stone had said that, like, Goliaths get a +8 to their save versus a Petal's Lullaby ability, or something like that. I have a player who's expressed fondness for this sort of little bonuses that do nothing 98% of the time, and you forget all about them until they unexpectedly save your butt at the most surprising of moments. I offered them the chance to switch their Drow from the RAW +2 LA version to one without the spell resistance and the Faerie Fire SLA, but who would get to have more levels of Psion instead, and the player declined.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why are elves specifically immune to ghouls anyway?

Because back in Chainmail, Elven armies were routinely slaughtered by Undead armies, due to the paralyse ability of ghouls.

So they made elves immune to ghoul paralysation as a rule patch, and it just carried over ever since.

[Dr.Epic]

Yeah, I agree. Dwarves are pretty overrated.

Everyone knows the best race in D&D is half-elf, and you have to be a monk to really make it work, and also take skill focus.

[LTwerewolf]

Yeah, I agree. Dwarves are pretty overrated.

Everyone knows the best race in D&D is half-elf, and you have to be a monk to really make it work, and also take skill focus.

Skill Focus: Speak Language

[Dr.Epic]

Skill Focus: Speak Language

And also toughness. Toughness as many times as you can take it!

[docnessuno]

Skill Focus: Speak Language

And also toughness. Toughness as many times as you can take it!

Make it a truenamer with Focused Lexicon.

[willpell]

Because back in Chainmail, Elven armies were routinely slaughtered by Undead armies, due to the paralyse ability of ghouls.

So they made elves immune to ghoul paralysation as a rule patch, and it just carried over ever since.

Hm. Why was it deadlier to elves than to humans or dwarves or whoever else?


Yeah, I agree. Dwarves are pretty overrated.

Everyone knows the best race in D&D is half-elf, and you have to be a monk to really make it work, and also take skill focus.

Now, I didn't mean it like that, there's no need to be sarcastic.

[TuggyNE]

Because back in Chainmail, Elven armies were routinely slaughtered by Undead armies, due to the paralyse ability of ghouls.

So they made elves immune to ghoul paralysation as a rule patch, and it just carried over ever since.

Totally called it. :smallcool:

Hurray for arbitrary game balance patches that survive unchanged for another 30+ years! :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Epic]

Now, I didn't mean it like that, there's no need to be sarcastic.

I don't know what you are talking about. I am being completely serious.



:smallwink:
:smalltongue:

[Fyermind]

In core only there aren't a lot of good feats for the tier 1 classes to take at first level, and cleric's ability to turn undead is basically useless (You can't make it scale fast enough and there is nothing else to use it to power) so wizards, clerics, and druids can all dump charisma and be happy. In a core only game, dwarves are arguably the best race for all the best classes. It's also worth noting that there has been something of an ability score creep in the past few years from what was intended when 3.5 was released. 15 was supposed to be a good score (like, your best score) now handbooks regularly say don't put anything less than a 16 in your secondary stats. When ability scores in general were lower, +2 con with no reasonable penalty is fantastically powerful. Add to that things like extra damage output at level 1 from Dwarven Waraxe, and the ability to wear heavy armor while thumbing your nose at the enemy, who cares if you've got little legs.

Frankly the penalty to their base land speed was the only serious drawback to dwarves in Core relative to the other races.

Note that with the addition of lots of good feats hidden in about a hundred splatbooks and the addition of many other very strong races (notably whisper gnome, strongheart halfling, warforged, and kobold) and templates (dragonborn comes to mind) you had dwarves knocked down from a tier 1 race screaming everything you can do I can do better at the elves, to a tier 2 race, still screaming everything you can do I can do better at the elves.

[hymer]

Hm. Why was it deadlier to elves than to humans or dwarves or whoever else?

Because as elf, your points were tied in fewer individual (but powerful) units. If three of type X were paralyzed, that'd be a small percentage of their total force. If three elves were paralyzed, that'd be a far larger percentage of your total force.

[Story]

to a tier 2 race, still screaming everything you can do I can do better at the elves.

Like take Elven substitution levels? Even with the Con penalty, they make pretty good Wizards (well the Grey, Sun, and Fire variants at least), especially if you can also take Domain Wizard.

[Yora]

At the end of the day, a Dwarf is still a short, drunk, and bearded Scandinavian.
No, a scottish viking.

[Kish]

I have read the comic. However, I have read a good bit of the excerpts from his games. The two are run at rather different levels of optimization as far as I can tell.

Probably because the guy writing the comics is not the DM in his game.
Uh.

I think it's more likely "because the protagonists in the comic are blatantly designed to be examples of bad players--a munchkin, a rules-lawyer, and a psycho--plus the significantly-more-likable viewpoint character."

[toapat]

Like take Elven substitution levels? Even with the Con penalty, they make pretty good Wizards (well the Grey, Sun, and Fire variants at least), especially if you can also take Domain Wizard.

Domain Wizard Varient cant be sub'd with Elf generalist, if you actually read the rules for it.


No, a scottish viking.

didnt fit the flow

[Story]

Domain Wizard Varient cant be sub'd with Elf generalist, if you actually read the rules for it.


If you actually read the rules for it, they can, though it probably wasn't intended. Anyway, it's an argument that's come up many times elsewhere.

[Starbuck_II]

Because back in Chainmail, Elven armies were routinely slaughtered by Undead armies, due to the paralyse ability of ghouls.

So they made elves immune to ghoul paralysation as a rule patch, and it just carried over ever since.

People stop being mean to Carrison Crawlers (not part of SRD). Elves are immune to them too.

[Story]

I think it's more likely "because the protagonists in the comic are blatantly designed to be examples of bad players--a munchkin, a rules-lawyer, and a psycho--plus the significantly-more-likable viewpoint character."

:vaarsuvius: And what would the problem with that be?

Personally I think the games in the comic look more fun than the real life excerpts.

[Raimun]

At the end of the day, a Dwarf is still a short, drunk, and bearded Scandinavian.

While a Kobold? A Kobold is still a dragon.


On the other hand, you could say that a kobold is equally short and also sober, unbearded and non-scandinavian. :smalltongue:

[Soranar]

I'll compare them to humans to help point out their tier. I'll use 3 factors to judge: base STATs, splat support (AKA unique options), roleplay support (for those of us that care about these things)

-Base STATs

Dwarf 4/5 (not whispergnome good but still really good, with subraces access there should be a Dwarf for just about any role)

Human 4/5 (an extra feat and extra skillpoints is just that useful)

-Splat support

Dwarf 4/5 due to the 3 level class that grants your ''dwarfness'' I can't rate this at 5 since, technically, anyone can have access to their race specific options. Still, not wasting 3 levels on requirements is a decent choice and Dwarf specific classes and magic items are very useful.

Human 5/5 classes unique to humans tend to be very powerful and unique (Chameleon, human paragon, etc)

roleplay support

Dwarfs : 5/5 Dwarfs come in various alignments which makes them suitable for just about any campaign or character concept. They never look out of place (as opposed to that dragonborn water orc barbarian or even that kobold)

Humans : 5/5 Again, humans never really look out of place and come in various alignments without jumping through hoops.

While roleplay is not as important to some as others, I still find Dwarves to be a top tier choice, just not always the ultimate choice. Still, it'll be hard to justify them in very specific builds over a tailormade race, doesn't change the fact that dwarves have more options.

You could easily have a whole party of dwarves (or humans) with very different roles (tank, healer, skillmonkey,face, mage) but the same can't be said of every race.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YFJtHhsf33EJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1281.0

There are a LOT of useful dwarf races...!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Dwarf was/is the best race evar bar none in a core only environment regardless of class and optimization level with Sorcerer being the only possible exception.

They remain very strong with the beer and pretzel crowd and are the obvious choice for kick in the door gaming when some splat material comes in pretty much at random. Feat choices have to actually be good for human and other +1 feat races to reign supreme.

[Aasimar]

Are dwarvees to dwarves as dragoons are to dragons?

[Story]

I will point out that the GM in that case article is very trigger happy with banning. About half of a dwarf's miscellaneous abilities have been banned over the course of the articles, indicating that that might be his main issue with them.

However, he also plays a game where blasting casters are pushing the boundary of OP, so those articles are simply at a different optimization level from what many on here employ. By those standards, dwarves might beat humans, just cause at low op, an extra feat doesn't go as far as in high op.

The more I read, the more ridiculous it gets. The DM apparently thinks a fly speed of 10 on a LA+1 race is overpowered. It's no wonder he banned dwarves. Actually, it sounds like he bans anything even slightly good. It's like he wants to be a killer DM but can't even figure out how to challenge a normal party.

[TuggyNE]

Are dwarvees to dwarves as dragoons are to dragons?

Don't forget rouges. Rouges are overpowdered. :smalltongue:

[tiercel]

Plenty of people have pointed out the rules-mechanical strength of dwarves as a race.

And some people are just pro-dwarf because they are anti-elf (i.e. anti- the whole "elves are longer lived, more knowledgeable, more in tune with nature, better craftsman, better mages, better swordsmen, and flat out just better than you" thing, not to mention that especially in Core there were more subraces of elf than anything else and gray elf was one of the few ways to get a racial bonus to a casting stat).

[Muktidata]

Yeah, I agree. Dwarves are pretty overrated.

Everyone knows the best race in D&D is half-elf, and you have to be a monk to really make it work, and also take skill focus.

Funny you say that. I'm playing a H/E Monk right now in a Core 3 game with my local gaming group. Turns out I just became the most effective character at our level (3).

Magical Aptitude+Skill Focus: UMD+Wand of Enlarger Person+Large Quarterstaff+Shileleagh=Profit!

On topic, other than discuss half-elf monks, isn't this thread done? Five or more people have listed the exact reasons.

[Juntao112]

Magical Aptitude+Skill Focus: UMD+Wand of Enlarger Person
I see what you did there.

[ericgrau]

I just use potions, they aren't expensive. Though the wand is nice b/c you can get downright paranoid about early enlarges and still have plenty of charges left.

[Juntao112]

Aren't potions of Enlarge Person 250 gp a pop?

[Starbuck_II]

Aren't potions of Enlarge Person 250 gp a pop?

Only if you buy Caster 5 version. But no one does.

[willpell]

Wand of Enlager Person

The Dwarven version.

[mcv]

The Dwarven version.

Enmedium Person?

[Andezzar]

Enmedium Person?Strangely enough dwarves are already medium. Look what willpell quoted. Enlager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lager) Person does sound like a dwarven idea.

[LTwerewolf]

Enstout person. Get it?

[willpell]

Yo mamma so stout?....

[LTwerewolf]

See it goes off them being rather robust and their love of alcohol, depending on how you look at it.

[willpell]

Lemme guess, dwarves always explain the joke, lest anything be ambiguous enough that it might be thought to reflect poorly on the honor of the clan.

(Whereas elves always explain the joke to make sure you know how brilliant and clever they are, and hopefully make you feel inferior for having not understood instantly. Even if you did.)

((Er...that wasn't a slam on your elfness Werewolf, just a standard Gimli vs. Legolas thing.))

[LTwerewolf]

I was going the dwarven route. Is there a forum color for dwarven?

[Wyntonian]

I was going the dwarven route. Is there a forum color for dwarven?

This needs to be a thing. Immediately.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I was going the dwarven route. Is there a forum color for dwarven?

I vote for Mustard, Dwarves love Mustard!

Or Perhaps a nice glass of Stout?

[Deadline]

Just as a quick note to the OP, it's possible the "Dwarves are the best" that you've seen refers to 4th edition, where Dwarves are awesome.

[LTwerewolf]

Maybe slate gray for sheer dwarven stubbornness.

[Crustypeanut]

You see, Dwarves have something of a cult following in the community. For every 3 noobs who love Legolas and worship the ground he walks on, there's a Dwarf Supremacist in the mix that loves everything about Dwarves.

This. And then, theres the entire forums of Dwarf Fortress, where EVERYONE there is a dwarf-loving, elf-hating cult follower.

For those of you who haven't heard of the glory of DF, its an entire game based around building a dwarven fortress, and it is easily the most complex game out there, especially to newcomers.

Its where dwarves run around for years, mining, drinking, eating, sleeping, taking breaks, mining, partying, drinking, dying, using babies as shields against monsters, drinking, running in fear from small harmless critters, going outside of the fortress during a siege to claim a sock from the owner's dead corpse, drinking some more, tantrumming, trantrum-spiralling until the entire fortress is dead, coming back from the dead and ripping people's limbs off and beating them with them, etc.

Elves in that game? They're cannibals, and they'll hate you for trading them wooden items, even if said wooden item was bought from them and sold back to them.

Best. Game. Ever. If you don't mind the ASCII graphics.

[toapat]

Best. Game. Ever. If you don't mind the ASCII graphics.

assuming you can figure out how to play of course.

Dorf Fortress is pretty fun

[Telonius]

You normally can't tumble if your speed is restricted because of armor, excess equipment or loot. Since dwarves do not suffer any speed penalty for wearing heavy armor, they can tumble in heavy armor, provided the dwarf is strong enough to not count the heavy armor as excess equipment or so.

Sorry to chime in kind of late here ... but I honestly don't remember reading that rule, and can't find it anywhere in the SRD.

[Juntao112]

Sorry to chime in kind of late here ... but I honestly don't remember reading that rule, and can't find it anywhere in the SRD.

Tumble (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)
You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

[Starbuck_II]

You can just buy a Tooth of Savnok (4000 gp?) to get that dwarven trait.

[Andezzar]

You can just buy a Tooth of Savnok (4000 gp?) to get that dwarven trait.Don't forget to rip out one of your teeth and replace it with the tooth of some weird entity.

[Crustypeanut]

Don't forget to rip out one of your teeth and replace it with the tooth of some weird entity.

Only dwarves would think of something that wierd..

[Andezzar]

Only dwarves would think of something that wierd..Dwarves who don't need that tooth?

Availability of the tooth might also be a problem because "no more than one version of a particular tooth ever exists at any given time." (ToM p. 77)

[Crustypeanut]

Dwarves who don't need that tooth?

Availability of the tooth might also be a problem because "no more than one version of a particular tooth ever exists at any given time." (ToM p. 77)

Maybe.. they made the tooth so that they could give it to a friend of dwarfkind, who wasn't a dwarf?

I'unno.. I'm just going to go back to thinking about my dwarves who collect stray socks from battlefields.

[Dsurion]

I was going the dwarven route. Is there a forum color for dwarven?Well, no, but there is :durkon:

[willpell]

You can just buy a Tooth of Savnok (4000 gp?) to get that dwarven trait.

It's only 2000, by far the cheapest of them. Although why in all holy hell they assigned gold prices to one-of-a-kind items....

[Andezzar]

Although why in all holy hell they assigned gold prices to one-of-a-kind items....To calculate the WBL of a character with that unique item, for example. If the tooth weren't magical, a value is also needed to see if someone could wish for it.

[Wyntonian]

It's only 2000, by far the cheapest of them. Although why in all holy hell they assigned gold prices to one-of-a-kind items....

I imagine it's so you can more easily calculate WBL, not so you can go buy it at your neighborhood Magic-Mart (tm)

[Mystral]

Dwarfs are one of the best races because:

- they are the only race that get's a +2 in a physical trait usefull to anyone while taking a hit in the skill most people dump anyway.
- they get martial proficiency with the best one handed weapon in the game (the dwarven waraxe)
- They are slow, but as you are most likely playing a dwarf in at least medium armor, that being slow means nothing at all.
- They gain a ton of bonuses on saving throws (+2 versus magic, +2 versus poison)
- They gain darkvision

The rest is just gravy, but each of these points is at least as strong as a feat.

[willpell]

- they get martial proficiency with the best one handed weapon in the game (the dwarven waraxe)

How is it better than the bastard sword (apart from being martial to dwarves)? I for one will take 19-20/x2 crits over 20/x3 crits any day.


- They are slow, but as you are most likely playing a dwarf in at least medium armor, that being slow means nothing at all.

Means a lot for those of us who generally don't wear medium armor for exactly this reason (along with ACPs which are nver above 2 for light armors and never below that for mediums). The ability to get around the battlefield or keep up with literally EVERYONE else in a footrace is pretty important; IMO, medium armor is always incredibly painful. (It doesn't help that there is only ever one suit of medium armor worth wearing, Hide if you're a Druid and Breastplate if you're not; the other two are completely worthless unless you're short 50 gp, which is just too pathetic to even consider.)


- They gain darkvision

Freaking everybody has darkvision, apart from humans. It's not worth a feat. Heck, it'd barely be worth a skill trick.

[Starbuck_II]

It's only 2000, by far the cheapest of them. Although why in all holy hell they assigned gold prices to one-of-a-kind items....

No, what you ask is why did the designers give creation guidelines if you can't create it?
Yes, you can create them. :smallbiggrin:

[Muktidata]

Dwarves are one of those races fairly tailor made for a specific class, and they come pre-loaded with lots of nifty bonuses.*
Everybody likes a Con bonus, especially fighters.*
They get to use Dwarven War Axes as martal weapons. If you are playing a Sword and Board fighter that's an average +1 damage.*
They have movement speed 20, but as a Fighter you'll be wearing heavy armor anyway.*
Bonus against Orcs and Goblinoids: Some of the most iconic monster types.
Bonuses against Giants: see above.
Resistance to Spells, SLA's, and Poisons: That's a +2 bonus on a decent chunk of saving throws out there.*
Some random Skill bonuses.


+2 con, +2 saves, no real drawback (cha? bah) and 10 million minor special abilities. *It isn't LA 1 but for LA 0 it's pretty high up there. *They work well with pretty much any class; even the cha based ones aren't hampered that much. *Heck a paladin actually gains more saves than he loses.


+2 to a stat useful (ofter 2nd or 3rd in priority) to 95% of characters
-2 to the most common dump stat around
Darkvision
Familiarity with some decent weapons
+4 against two common combat manouvers
+2 against 50-90% of the saves you will be rolling
Situational combat bonuses
+2 on a large number of skills
A limited form of trapfinding




- they are the only race that get's a +2 in a physical trait usefull to anyone while taking a hit in the skill most people dump anyway.*
- they get martial proficiency with the best one handed weapon in the game (the dwarven waraxe)*
- They are slow, but as you are most likely playing a dwarf in at least medium armor, that being slow means nothing at all.
- They gain a ton of bonuses on saving throws (+2 versus magic, +2 versus poison)
- They gain darkvision


I stopped quoting after a bit. How many times can people write the exact same post without reading before them to see how many people already said the exact same thing?

[Andezzar]

Freaking everybody has darkvision, apart from humans. It's not worth a feat. Heck, it'd barely be worth a skill trick.In the PHB only Half-Orcs have darkvision, besides dwarves. AFAIK outside that book it is mainly races that either live underground or are outsiders.

[LTwerewolf]

In the PHB only Half-Orcs have darkvision, besides dwarves. AFAIK outside that book it is mainly races that either live underground or are outsiders.

Dragons and dragon-descended things usually have it as well.

[Story]

Plus undead of course.

[GnomeGninjas]

Freaking everybody has darkvision, apart from humans. It's not worth a feat. Heck, it'd barely be worth a skill trick.

No, most things have low-light vision which is worse in almost all circumstances.

[Talya]

I stopped quoting after a bit. How many times can people write the exact same post without reading before them to see how many people already said the exact same thing?

Not to mention - I never play a character that completely dumps charisma.

(But... there are Gold Dwarves for that. +2 con, -2 dex.)

[Ravens_cry]

No, most things have low-light vision which is worse in almost all circumstances.
It's kind of funny we call it 'low light vision' then. By all rights 'normal' should be 'hindered vision'. :smalltongue:

[GnomeGninjas]

It's kind of funny we call it 'low light vision' then. By all rights 'normal' should be 'hindered vision'. :smalltongue:

I've never thought of it like that before.

[Starbuck_II]

It's kind of funny we call it 'low light vision' then. By all rights 'normal' should be 'hindered vision'. :smalltongue:
I get the joke:
I think Vision is named by what they can see normal vision in.
Low-lighters see normal even in low light.
Darkvision see normal in the dark.

[LTwerewolf]

I get the joke:
I think Vision is named by what they can see normal vision in.
Low-lighters see normal even in low light.
Darkvision see normal in the dark.

No, it's just that very few things have regular human vision, so it's considered gimp vision. Most take LLV for granted.

[Gavinfoxx]

Darkvision is okay. Low-light vision is okay. Superior Low Light vision is very nice. Having both Darkvision an Low-Light vision is great.

[willpell]

In the PHB only Half-Orcs have darkvision, besides dwarves. AFAIK outside that book it is mainly races that either live underground or are outsiders.

I was mostly going by the Monster Manual. Nearly every type other than Humanoid gets it - Monstrous Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Aberrations, Dragons, Outsiders, Elementals, Undead (and Deathless), Vermin and Constructs. (Oozes have no vision at all, but don't need it because of Blindsight.) Combine the low-light vision of animals, plants, fey and giants....with the possible exception of Oozes depending on blindsight radius, Humanoids are literally the only creatures in the world that can't apprehend all the contents of a 40 foot by 40 foot room with a torch.


It's kind of funny we call it 'low light vision' then. By all rights 'normal' should be 'hindered vision'. :smalltongue:

Nay, because humans are obviously special. St. Cuthbert? Human, became a god. Vecna? Human, became a god. Corellon? Was a god first, then created the elves in his image. Orcs, dwarves, gnomes and halflings all needed a god to create them, while Zarus the ostensible creator of humanity isn't in Core. Humans are the "race of destiny", and none of the members of the other races have ascended to godhood that I've heard of, and if they did they presumably joined the racial pantheon, whereas humans still don't have a racial pantheon. They worship Pelor the god of everybody, they have the Common tongue which everyone speaks...humans pretty much run the show in default D&D world. Only dragons seem to be comparable in importance. (Of course you can change all of that for a given world, and it definitely doesn't seem to hold in the Realms, which were apparently designed by people who thought elves were the awesome. One of many reasons I don't play in the Realms.)