Divination as Armor?

[willpell]

I'm trying to figure out how to make an enemy competent while staying in flavor. He's a Cloistered Cleric, so he doesn't wear armor at all; he might cast Magic Vestment on his robes, but mostly he isn't going to be able to count on AC for much, especially since he's past middle age and has dumped Constitution. So ultimately what he needs to do is ensure that fights never happen without him being prepared, and preferably not even then. As a Cleric (I'm thinking roughly level 7; the player who might decide to attack him is a Barbarian 5, so I don't figure it's fair to be higher, but he needs to be somewhat nasty because he's been summoning monsters to kidnap townsfolk and so he needs to have been capable of using stuff like Extend Spell or perhaps even Persist Spell to keep them around long enough to do the job), he should have access to some Divinations, and I've heard part of what makes a Batman wizard hard to beat is that he reads the future to find out what he needs to do.

So I'm wondering whether this Cleric can do something like scry his own future to find out whether the Barbarian he just met will decide to attack him, and get like a huge dodge bonus to AC to represent this forewarning, followed by him casting a spell which he intends to take the Barbarian out of his hair, but without ending the encounter because I don't want the player to be all like "welp, I'm Held, that sucks, lemme know when I can act again or should I just roll up a new character?". Probably the best thing for the cleric to do would be to toss off a summon and flee, though he ideally also wants to prevent the barbarian from getting away and tattling on him to the townsfolk.

[shadow_archmagi]

There are psionic powers (Defensive Precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm)) that do exactly that. You may wish to convert them for Cleric use. Generally speaking, just replace anything that says "Each additional power point" with "Per caster level" and you're more or less good

[Story]

The usual tactic is Contact Other Plane/Commune, but unfortunately you don't get that until level 9. You do get Augery, Divination, and Scrying which can help somewhat (remember to take a level or two in Divine Oracle).

Anyway, a level 7 Cleric is more than capable of keeping buffs up 24/7, so if that's specifically what you're worried out, there's no problem there.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm... Prying Eyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pryingEyes.htm) would work (set them to surround you at a decent distance and warn you of anyone that approaches), but that's a wizard spell and even then not available until level 9. I know the Orc domain gets it on their list, though.

There are always the low level divinations that you can use to help determine if someone is a threat... Augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm) could probably be worded appropriately (for the action, try something like "trusting this guy won't attack me" or something similar). Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm) definitely could, but that spell is a pain in the butt to cast if you can't get it as an SLA (Medani Prophets are fun!). Omen of Peril (Races of Destiny) is a first level spell that can tell you if you're in immediate danger... a wand or use-activated device of this means that a paranoid mage could use it every hour, and prepare appropriately when it comes up with a "danger" reading.

Bestow Curse is always a fun option for disabling an enemy without killing them, especially if you mess around with the alternative curse options. Maybe curse the barbarian so he can only speak some rare fiendish language? That ought to keep him from telling anyone. If he confronts you, laugh, curse him and explain that he won't have the chance to reveal your plot, and then summon a monster and flee.

Or you can always enchant the barbarian. The Charm and Fey domains both give Charm Person as a first-level spell. Confusion comes on the Madness and Trickery domains.

...but the big money comes in from the Mentalism domain, found in the Spell Compendium. Detect Thoughts and Clairvoyance both give you nice ways to determine what's happening in advance, and then for the kicker, Modify Memory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm) means that even if you're discovered, you can erase any hint of wrongdoing from the barbarian's mind, and even implant a new memory in there.

[Slipperychicken]

What's stopping him from using Greater Luminous Armor for AC? Also, a Barb5 can't fly, while a Cleric7 can just Air Walk into the sky and make funny faces at him.

[Arcanist]

What's stopping him from using Greater Luminous Armor for AC? Also, a Barb5 can't fly, while a Cleric7 can just Air Walk into the sky and make funny faces at him.

Sanctified spells hurt. Flying however is brilliant :smallsmile:

[Gildedragon]

Also sanctified spells are good only; a villain might very well not meet that prereq

[willpell]

Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm) definitely could, but that spell is a pain in the butt to cast if you can't get it as an SLA.

I fail to see how - the material component is just 25 gp.


Bestow Curse is always a fun option for disabling an enemy without killing them, especially if you mess around with the alternative curse options. Maybe curse the barbarian so he can only speak some rare fiendish language? That ought to keep him from telling anyone.

He could still grunt and point at the church and gesticulate in such a way as to get across the idea that he was normal before he went there. This would raise an amount of suspicion that the priest would prefer to avoid. The barbarian in question saved the lives of a bunch of people who were traveling to the town; while the town's actual natives would defend the priest, the travelers would almost certainly side with the barbarian, and they number about half the population of the town itself, but all in one place rather than distributed among their homes, so they'd have more ability to form a mob in a hurry if given a reason. So the cleric is not going to act in such a way as to provoke the barbarian if he can avoid it - basically what I'm looking for is a contingent defense which he hopes never to need to use, and if he does use it, he has plausible deniability that he was just defending himself when the barbarian went off on him "for no reason".


Or you can always enchant the barbarian. The Charm and Fey domains both give Charm Person as a first-level spell. Confusion comes on the Madness and Trickery domains.

A very in-character thing for this guy to do, but I feel that it's inappropriate to cast mind-control spells on a PC. They don't affect the player, after all, they just interfere with his ability to roleplay his character the way he wants to, and I consider that a big no-no. (The only thing I can think of which I take a dimmer view of is memory-deletion powers, for much the same reason, only more so. Being possessed at least gives you the chance to do some ham acting, but being required to pretend you don't know something which you do is just a headache.)


...but the big money comes in from the Mentalism domain, found in the Spell Compendium. Detect Thoughts and Clairvoyance both give you nice ways to determine what's happening in advance

Perfect!


and then for the kicker, Modify Memory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm) means that even if you're discovered, you can erase any hint of wrongdoing from the barbarian's mind, and even implant a new memory in there.

Oh. Hm, well it is so fully in-character for this guy that I have a hard time saying nay, but given my feelings on the topic...I think what I'll do is describe the scene falsely based on the modified memory, if the barbarian acts in such a way as to provoke this. Can MM be used on two subjects at once? The barbarian has an NPC halfling rogue with him; the cleric would need to be able to take them both out before hypnotizing them.

[Kobold Esq]

Sanctified spells hurt. Flying however is brilliant :smallsmile:

They only hurt at the end of the duration, and even then for not very much damage. Lesser Restoration takes care of that.

[Slipperychicken]

They only hurt at the end of the duration, and even then for not very much damage. Lesser Restoration takes care of that.

Not to mention you sleep off 1 point of ability damage a night, 2 with a successful Heal check (DC 15. You won't even need ranks if you have Wis 20 and Take 10). So if you aren't too worried about your Strength score, you can literally sleep it off :smallbiggrin:

Just cast Greater Luminous Armor it right before bedtime so you can heal the ability damage right away, and it won't impact your adventuring day. A Good Cleric doesn't even need to prepare it; he can cast all Sanctified spells spontaneously. As long as you have one spell slot of 3rd level or higher left at the end of the day...

[willpell]

Well the Sanctified stuff is moot. The cleric still thinks he's Good, but he's actually gone insane, and his Pelor is no longer the real Pelor, but a psychotic caricature more akin to the Burning Hate gag, though in a different direction.

[Kobold Esq]

Well the Sanctified stuff is moot. The cleric still thinks he's Good, but he's actually gone insane, and his Pelor is no longer the real Pelor, but a psychotic caricature more akin to the Burning Hate gag, though in a different direction.

Frankly just having a well connected network of informants is as good as, or better than divination, in many cases. Perhaps he considers this band of ne'er-do-wells and criminals his flock, and he is out to save them. He sees them as souls in need of guidance, but in practical terms it means he is always well informed.

[willpell]

Frankly just having a well connected network of informants is as good as, or better than divination, in many cases. Perhaps he considers this band of ne'er-do-wells and criminals his flock, and he is out to save them. He sees them as souls in need of guidance, but in practical terms it means he is always well informed.

He lives in a town with 30 people, so not so much.

[TiaC]

The sanctified spell description only says that evil characters can't cast them, so if your cleric is neutral he still can. It could even be part of his proof that Pelor still blesses him.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I fail to see how - the material component is just 25 gp.

Divination has a 10 minute casting time which makes it a little problematic to cast in short notice (like a barbarian aproaching you with unknown intentions); but Spell like abilities are "casted" as a standard action unless otherwise stated so SLA that mimic spells with long casting times are particularly useful.

[Fable Wright]

The sanctified spell description only says that evil characters can't cast them, so if your cleric is neutral he still can. It could even be part of his proof that Pelor still blesses him.

Unfortunately, the target is one Good creature. The spellcaster can be Neutral and prepare it, yes, but he can't cast it on himself.

[Ashtagon]

Sounds like your classic chessmaster NPC. And when they fight, they always fight with proxies. "Let's you and him fight" should be his motto.

He has the power to know where the PCs are and when they are. He can arrange for hired thugs to intercept them anytime he pleases. He doesn't need to run away from a fight because he knows where the party are, and can just casually stroll away hours earlier.

[Telok]

Add one level of sorcerer to him and give him the Improved Familiar feat. It's won't really affect his actual challenge ability but it will give him Mage Armor and Shield. Since Mage Armor is a tangible effect granting an armor bonus you can plausably cast Magic Vestment on it. Since Mage Armor will only be a one hour duration he should be liberal in his use of Augury. Like wise Shield of Faith will stack with the Shield spell. The full combo will give +12 or so AC depending on exact actions.

The familiar is going to be an imp or quasit. Give it a Hat of Disguise and/or shift it's skills and feats to max out Disguise and Bluff. These guys get a six question Commune once a week.

Lastly he needs a Mongo (from Blazing Saddles for the clueless). These guys always have a Mongo.

[Darrin]

Divination has a 10 minute casting time which makes it a little problematic to cast in short notice

Skull Talisman (Frostburn) or Glyph Seal (MIC) can speed up the casting time if he wants to prep them in advance.

[willpell]

The sanctified spell description only says that evil characters can't cast them, so if your cleric is neutral he still can. It could even be part of his proof that Pelor still blesses him.


Unfortunately, the target is one Good creature. The spellcaster can be Neutral and prepare it, yes, but he can't cast it on himself.


Sounds like your classic chessmaster NPC. And when they fight, they always fight with proxies. "Let's you and him fight" should be his motto.

Sounds like it has potential, given that I've mentioned him summoning a lot. If he's Chaotic Neutral due to insanity (although it's highly debatable whether he remains non-Evil given what the atrocity he's covering up is; I'm really leery of saying that any amount of genuine piety is sufficient to compensate for this particular crime, no matter how insane you are...in retrospect making him the dupe of a villain might have been better, but as it stands he's directly culpable, and the argument that he isn't quite Evil is one I'm very scared of making, lest it make me look like a complete and utter skeeze), then in that case he'd be capable of summoning a Celestial animal and casting the buff in question on them. But, well, that wouldn't really keep the barb from killing him, since if he has time to get off a summoning spell then he has time to run for his life, but that still leaves him with his reputation in the town ruined and he wants to avoid that. I think I'm better off sticking with the Modify Memory plan, much as I don't love it.


He has the power to know where the PCs are and when they are. He can arrange for hired thugs to intercept them anytime he pleases. He doesn't need to run away from a fight because he knows where the party are, and can just casually stroll away hours earlier.

No, that's not this guy, though I definitely do have NPCs like that in my game. This one, on the other hand, is desperate to keep his secret; he's not a gloater, but honestly (insanely) believes he's still doing the right thing, and is justified in whatever "unfortunate" actions are necessary to keep the knowledge of his deeds away from "those who wouldn't understand".


Divination has a 10 minute casting time which makes it a little problematic to cast in short notice (like a barbarian aproaching you with unknown intentions); but Spell like abilities are "casted" as a standard action unless otherwise stated so SLA that mimic spells with long casting times are particularly useful.

Hm. Well I'd be inclined to overrule the RAW on that; if the spell requires that much time, the SLA should too.


Add one level of sorcerer to him and give him the Improved Familiar feat. It's won't really affect his actual challenge ability but it will give him Mage Armor and Shield.

Way too cheesy. Nobody just randomly has sorcerer powers in my campaign; it has to be a part of their identity. Players can just say that it is, and multiclass to their heart's content, but an NPC is as much defined by what he can't do as by what he can, so I don't assign classes to them which aren't justified by their concept (this is also why I use the Fighter and Aristocrat classes, rather than just ruling that a Cleric or Warblade comes from a thuggish or noble background; to me it's important that your character sheet says what you are, and power level concerns are secondary - still somewhat important for a character like this, but not worth optimizing as hard as you possibly can for, unless the character is a BBEG or the Elminster of his CW).

[Telok]

Way too cheesy. Nobody just randomly has sorcerer powers in my campaign; it has to be a part of their identity.
...
and power level concerns are secondary - still somewhat important for a character like this, but not worth optimizing as hard as you possibly can for,

But that's the great thing, it doesn't need to be random, it can be the direct result of his insanity and being co-opted by a wicked god. What if the wicked god can't grant cleric spells, or can't grant only cleric spells? Perhaps he only has cleric spells because his former god hasn't cut him off yet, there may be a slight chance for redemption that the original god want's him to try for.

So the level of sorcerer and the familiar are his "reward" from his diety, who he thinks is still the original good guy god, and is duping and tempting him further down the path of corruption? A single level of sorcerer isn't going to beef up his toughness, it just adds AC and a bit of divination and spying to the character. Hard optimization this isn't. Optimization would be another level of cleric or slotting him into a prestige class.

That said, if it violates your world's sorcerer flavor then don't use it. Perhaps you can sub in a level of psion or wilder? The crazed can have unknown reserves of insane strength. He can even still think that he's casting a cleric spell because nothing stops you from using VSM while manifesting. Precognition, Force Screen, and Inertial Armor work on the psion side while the wilder has... not much but it fits the flavor of a crazy untrained manifester.

[Arcanist]

They only hurt at the end of the duration, and even then for not very much damage. Lesser Restoration takes care of that.

Well it's official... I'm the only one that uses encumbrance rules :smallannoyed:

[ericgrau]

Quickened sanctuary + summons is always handy. If you want to be a real jerk you can even (offensive action) + quicken sanctuary every round. Next get a high save DC on it.

That still leaves you open to area spells. For the ones that affect hp you might get multiple protections from energy if you can't figure out a better answer.

Also of note is that you can still wear full plate as long as you don't mind failing all your attack rolls.

[Piggy Knowles]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but yeah, Dusk Eclipse got it right - the problem with using Divination with any frequency isn't the material component (although depending on how frequently you're casting it, it can add up). It's the 10 minute casting time.

That's why one of my favorite prophet-y prestige classes is the Medani Prophet. It lets you convert your dragonmark uses into SLAs of Augury and Divination, circumventing both the casting time and the material component. (Of course, if you do as you say and rule that the SLA will take the same amount of time, then that's moot.)

Anyhow, I guess I've been blessed with good roleplayers, but I haven't personally experienced the issues with casting charms/compulsions on PCs. Most PCs I've worked with do their best to separate what they know in game from what they don't.

Remember that Modify Memory can actual modify something existing, so the cleric could use it to point out someone else entirely.

Modify Memory is only one target, but if the barbarian keeps an NPC with him, that might still make things interesting. Roll a secret Will save for the barbarian. With the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick (Complete Scoundrel), the cleric can cast the spell without the barbarian or the NPC knowing he's casting. Then describe the scene to the barbarian, in a way that incriminates someone else entirely and shows the cleric as the good guy. But have the NPC halfling that accompanies him insist that none of that happened, and that the cleric just seemed to act really weird and leave. This way the barbarian still has a clue that something is up, but will have to figure out what happened.

[willpell]

Quickened sanctuary + summons is always handy. If you want to be a real jerk you can even (offensive action) + quicken sanctuary every round. Next get a high save DC on it.

SANCTUARY!!! Can't believe I forgot that one; it's perfect. I'd probably Extend it since the duration is atrocious at low CLs. And yeah, needs a better save DC, but neither Barbs nor Rogues get good Will saves so it should have a chance of working.


Conceal Spellcasting skill trick (Complete Scoundrel)

Another good one, and as a human Clois'er with decent INT, he should have tons of SP. I think to be fair to the player I'd better stat the cleric up; I'll put it here for easy reference, so when a spoiler box appears below, that's him.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, as far as deflecting your Barbarian is concerned, I think your best bet is probably a combination of divinations alongside Sanctuary and Calm Emotions (prepared from the Law, Balance, Charm or Mechanus domains, or from the Community domain as a SLA), forcing your Barbarian to make not one, but two Will saves in order to even break that initial defense.

Really though, beyond that, I think your best bet is honestly to not concern yourself overly much with making a direct conflict between the Barbarian and the Cleric too climactic. Given the Cleric's existing pattern of summoning things and creating obstacles to subvert the Barbarian's plans indirectly, and divinations to preempt him, the rising action, and in fact the climax itself, can all be in the buildup to the final showdown between the two; the Cleric, knowing the Barbarian is coming, sets up a number of traps, both mechanical and magical, as well as some Persisted summons (or just bound creatures and slaves of various mundane and magical origins). He doesn't concern himself overly much with being able to take down the Barbarian one-on-one, not only because that was never his modus operandi, but also because he doesn't conceive of a situation where the Barbarian can overcome his strength in numbers: he's prepared all of his best spells in front-loading his defense, thinking to crush the Barbarian under his boot without ever having to sully his hands directly, and when the time for action comes, he's all but spent. When the Barbarian arrives, he knows that his defenses and his divinations (which don't grant actual precognition, and don't actually change fate, despite his planning) have failed him, and tries to reason his way out of the direct confrontation--and, if that fails, tries to fight, but is hopelessly outmatched, as the Barbarian is wont to do to a shrewd old man in feats of strength.

Of course, if the game is sufficiently high-op, this solution probably won't fly, unless you make the challenges leading up to it sufficiently powerful so as to make it clear that he has invested a lot of his power into the summons and preemptive traps--but got good return on his investment nonetheless.

[willpell]

Really though, beyond that, I think your best bet is honestly to not concern yourself overly much with making a direct conflict between the Barbarian and the Cleric too climactic.

Right, the stuff you describe is more or less the plan, I just want to know what the cleric's basic defenses against any possible sudden aggression would be.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Right, the stuff you describe is more or less the plan, I just want to know what the cleric's basic defenses against any possible sudden aggression would be.

That was the Cleric's basic defenses.

Have you seen The Princess Bride? :smallbiggrin:

[willpell]

Have you seen The Princess Bride? :smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah. Long-time favorite. Especially Vizzini. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT - On the topic of SLAs of spells with long casting times, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14491558&postcount=785) would seem instructive....