I'm confused about Bull's Strength...

[Qintopon]

In the books that I've been reading (ie. Allies and Enemies) they say that Bull's strength can last for hours while the PH says that it last min/level...14 hours would make it CL 840... I don't get it...

[Phelix-Mu]

I believe the duration was shortened from 3.0 to 3.5. Not sure by how much, though...10 min/level would last 3 hours 20 minutes at CL 20. Maybe the book you are reading is 3.0?

[Qintopon]

Still at 10 min/lvl it would have to be CL 84, solves the problem a little, but not all the way...:smallconfused:

[The_Snark]

In 3.0 the spell's duration was 1 hour/level. (It also gave a variable 1d4+1 bonus to Strength, rather than a constant +4.) You're probably reading a 3.0 book.

[Piggy Knowles]

Pretty sure it used to be 1 hour per level in 3.0, and was changed to 1 minute per level in the 3.5 update.

EDIT: Ninja'd. And Enemies & Allies is definitely 3.0.

[Qintopon]

Ok...thanks guys.

[Curmudgeon]

3.0:
Duration: 1 hour/level
3.5:
Duration: 1 min./level If the book doesn't say "3.5" D&D, assume it isn't.

[Phelix-Mu]

In 3.0 the spell's duration was 1 hour/level. (It also gave a variable 1d4+1 bonus to Strength, rather than a constant +4.) You're probably reading a 3.0 book.

Ah right, the variable stat bonus. While the duration was awesome, that variable thing was quite annoying at lower levels. At high levels, it became irrelevant because you could just spam the extended version/pump up CL the day before the mission until you rolled well. On the other hand, it was a bit of a nerf to summoning, since you might not want to waste time mass bull's strength the party/summons if you could roll poorly.

Eh, I look at what they fixed in 3.0 to 3.5 and I'm like "yay, that was a good call. Nice Improvement, way to go." Then I look at the many things that were fine in 3.0 and subsequently were broken, or the original 3.5 material that looks as if no one ever vetted/edited any of it, and I'm like *facepalm*

Then I look at the lifespan of 4e->5e, and I'm like *double facepalm*

[KillianHawkeye]

Ah right, the variable stat bonus. While the duration was awesome, that variable thing was quite annoying at lower levels. At high levels, it became irrelevant because you could just spam the extended version/pump up CL the day before the mission until you rolled well.

Actually, at higher levels you generally used an Empowered or Maximized version (or Intensified at Epic ftw) to get an even bigger stat boost.

[The_Snark]

Ah right, the variable stat bonus. While the duration was awesome, that variable thing was quite annoying at lower levels. At high levels, it became irrelevant because you could just spam the extended version/pump up CL the day before the mission until you rolled well. On the other hand, it was a bit of a nerf to summoning, since you might not want to waste time mass bull's strength the party/summons if you could roll poorly.

I dunno, I kinda liked it. It made an odd-numbered Strength score more than just a stepping stone to the next even number—with this spell, you had a solid chance of getting another point out of it. (One of my earliest long-running characters was a cleric with 15 Strength.) Given that 3.5 got rid of almost all the odd-numbered boosts like that, I sometimes wonder why they didn't simplify ability scores and modifiers into one number, the way M&M 3E did recently. The current system adds very little to the game; it's just another set of tables to confuse new players.

(Edit - I guess it would invalidate the old 4d6 method of rolling stats, which would be a serious kick to the nostalgia.)

And even if the boost was lower, I still think the higher duration made it better. 3.0 Bull's Strength was a staple of my cleric's spell list; I have literally never used the new version, because there are better short-duration buffs to cast, and it's completely superseded by magic items at mid-levels.

[Phelix-Mu]

I do agree about the new version not really being better, but I dislike buffs that have random effectiveness (pet peeve, I guess). I too have rarely used any of the stat buff spells until my casters got access to the mass versions, and they added some more interesting stat boost spells in later material. I agree with the fact that these spells seem irrelevant shortly after they become available, though I would stipulate that they can still be good investments for some summons or hirelings/allies and such. Bear's endurance is probably more broadly useful for this, IMHO, but bull's strength can also greatly improve the survival of weak people that might also be in danger.

[Darth Stabber]

I dunno, I kinda liked it. It made an odd-numbered Strength score more than just a stepping stone to the next even number—with this spell, you had a solid chance of getting another point out of it. (One of my earliest long-running characters was a cleric with 15 Strength.) Given that 3.5 got rid of almost all the odd-numbered boosts like that, I sometimes wonder why they didn't simplify ability scores and modifiers into one number, the way M&M 3E did recently. The current system adds very little to the game; it's just another set of tables to confuse new players.

(Edit - I guess it would invalidate the old 4d6 method of rolling stats, which would be a serious kick to the nostalgia.)


also it would require you to rework ability damage/drain. Keep in mind that M&M is significantly simpler than 3.5 D&D, and as far as 3.5 D&D goes, it pretty much has all the players it's going to have, unless wizards decides to begin seriously supporting it again.