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View Full Version : How to introduce a player stronghold/How to curb player ruthlessness?



doc neon
2013-01-05, 03:16 PM
Hey playground!

I'm a fairly new DM, and this is about my tenth session with a group of five who are complete newbies. Only one of them has played before, and he considered the druid a bad class. They're great players, but I'm just saying that they don't do optimization.

Anyway, our rogue if they could invest in any kind of business. I know that he's an avid Assassin's Creed player, so I think he's trying to angle towards getting a stronghold. I sort of avoided the question, but it got me thinking. I really don't know the best way to introduce the players having a stronghold.

I'd actually kinda like for them to be able to design it themselves, since they really like to create things in the world, but I'm not sure how I would introduce that. "The king gives you land, and tells you to build something?" I could always go the old, "This castle you've cleared out is yours now," but I wouldn't really know how to play that, and it would be difficult to work in this campaign since they're not really working for a government. Also, I'm kind of worried that the campaign will have the party on the move a lot, and they wouldn't be able to enjoy the stronghold much.

I know the question was phrased weirdly, sorry. Any thoughts or general advice? Does anyone have any helpful (or amusing) stronghold stories?

P.S. Almost forgot. I disposed of the alignment system, thinking that it would help the players just play their characters as characters, but it's really led to a situation in which the party rogue wants to kill a disabled enemy and everyone is fine with it. Honestly, it was a bit creepy. With alignments, I could probably have called people on being Good, but instead they were about to kill a plot-important villain in cold blood. Have you found any way to get your players a little less bloodthirsty?

Waker
2013-01-05, 03:29 PM
If the party doesn't have any ties with any type of governmental body, the best bet is for them to either claim or build a stronghold. In the case of the former, consider having the area be abandoned and uninhabited by the nearest government. In the latter, consider buying it or perhaps coming across the appropriate paperwork as a sort of treasure.
Regardless of how they acquire the place, they could just view it as a place to call home. Even if they are always on the road, it's nice to know there is a place to come back to and relax. They could consider hiring people to manage the stronghold or perhaps a friendly NPC would be willing to take on the role for them.

SilverLeaf167
2013-01-05, 03:33 PM
Question 1:
Strongholds are best treated as plot elements. Letting the players it themselves will most likely result in them having some personal attachment to the place, which can be either a good or bad thing, depending on what you intend to happen to the stronghold. However, you should keep the players from doing anything too crazy/overpowered with the design, though if it's really cool, like some magic item, make obtaining it a plot hook.

If the players simply receive an existent stronghold, they probably won't be quite as interested in it (this depends a lot on the group) but this approach gives you a free plot hook right at the start (getting the place), and more for the future (past denizens try to get it back, something else about the history of the place).

If the players try to use the business/stronghold to make money, you might give them a little leeway if they come up with an especially interesting plan, but don't go too far. The income from a business is negligible compared to an adventurer's typical income, anyway, and there are always some upkeep costs.


Question 2:
Did the players, or rather the characters, have any reason (known to them) to not kill the character? Did they inversely have a reason to want to kill him? How does this fit with the characters' earlier behavior?

There's really far too little context to give you much feedback on this matter, but one thing that usually works is making NPCs important to the players, either through personal attachment (does not work with everyone) or simple plot matters. Just the NPC being "plot-important" doesn't matter for squat, especially if the players don't know it.

Another way is quite obvious (and should always be kept in mind): the PCs' actions have consequences. If they kill a plot-important villain, the plot changes accordingly. If they go on a murderous rampage, a lot of people will try and stop them. Even if they were at Epic levels, there's always bigger fish in the ocean.

Frozen_Feet
2013-01-05, 03:56 PM
As far as strongholds go: what about giving your players a ship? Is there an ocean nearby? Taking care of a ship can have all high points of castle-keeping, expect you can take your ship out for adventure - or rather, it takes you there. :smallbiggrin: This is how my maritime campaign turned out - while at first my players made their home base in a manor they bought, eventually their home island grew too small for them and they decided to deport.

As far as obtaining a castle or ship goes, easiest way is to tell your players to buy one. Or build one, if suitable empty terrain is available.

As for curbing bloodlust: first, you got to understand why your players act so. There are two main reasons: 1) they do it for the XP and 2) they're afraid of revenge. Point 1) is easily tackled - give better rewards for keeping defeated enemies alive than just slaying them. Tackling point 2) is related, but a bit more complex.

You see, the usual mentality is that your enemies are out to get you and can't be trusted. A dead enemy is safer than a living one. To get around this you need to create an environment where this is not always strictly how things are.

There are multiple points you can consider: first, maybe a defeated enemy can be held for ransom, or there's a bounty on them that's worth more if they're delivered alive. You can have enemies point this out themselves. Second, how will society react to such cold-blooded behaviour? Think of all the laws governing warfare in real life - maybe it's law of the land that properly surrendered foes should be taken as prisoners, not slain. Make it clear that "heroes" who give no quarter can expect to receive none themselves, being not much better than common murderers.

On the flipside, you will need to give your players a chance to benefit from such customs as well. Really, it all boils down to one simple principle: if you don't want people to die, resolutions without death must be viable and achievable. Players rarely give mercy if they expect to receive none.

awa
2013-01-05, 04:10 PM
also keep in mind the joker specifically what are you going to do with a captured villain if you let him go he may just go right back to doing what ever evil thing caused the conflict in the first place if you stick him a jail run by level 1 warriors then when he breaks out in a day or two he kills all the warriors guarding him before returning to his regular villain activity. For a character with the right ethical out look not killing him is the evil act.

edit in regards to a strong hold don't just give them an empty castle give it something that makes it enticing say swarm of unseen servants and a set of magical traps that can be controlled by a master who is attuned to the fort in an inner sanctum (may only be done when previous owner is dead) then allow them to customize the fort and add additional defenses.
give some quest to allow them to get special things say after rescuing some dwarven engineers they could say we don't have much money but if you need something built we could help.

Alejandro
2013-01-05, 08:32 PM
I will chime in with the quintessential Final Fantasy solution: the airship. :)

genmoose
2013-01-05, 10:15 PM
For the first question about the stronghold, I do like the idea about the ship. However I have another thought to toss out with a few different possibilities for growth.

There is a spell I remember from my gaming days called Mage's Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm). It's fairly high level but it conjures an extra dimensional mansion that is well furnished, staffed with invisible servants, and accessed through a special portal.

Since this is one and done and there is little to build upon, why not start with a slightly less 'finished' extra dimensional space. One way to do it would be for the PC's to get some magic item that serves as a key to the stronghold except when they enter they find it run down and half falling apart. As they journey they find a way to upgrade the space. Perhaps there are specific items they find that will repair/heal/expand the stronghold. Or if you want to me more generic, the PC's could disintegrate magical items, and re-purpose the energy within (perhaps with a forge found inside the structure). That could add an element of discussion between the PC's between keeping the nifty stuff they will find, selling it, or 'feeding it to the forge' to build on their castle.

It also helps to fix a problem I had as a DM where plays invariably have trouble getting rid of unwanted magic items. IE your PC's beat a major bad guy, slaughter his guards, yadda yadda and now have a pile of low level +1 swords. It's not as good as what you have now, but depending on the campaign setting, you may not be able to sell them very easily. This way you could feed them to the forge and put in a pool, or library, or armory.

There are also the typical plot hooks of the old owner returning, extra dimensional pests, or perhaps some guardian/disaster returning that wrecked the place before.

Another option is to have the stronghold furnished, but sealed up. Maybe they enter the foyer and every door from there is locked. If the original portal was dropped by some sort of reoccurring character they may find additional 'keys' as they go that unlock more rooms and features. Of course that might not allow the same creativity that the first idea might permit.

For your second question, I did play in a game where things went the other way. We were a cautious group and after we didn't kill one bad guy and he gave us information, we were hesitant to kill any bad guy. Every encounter got dragged out as we'd interrogate every threat that could speak common. I think the DM indulged us for a while with little hints but eventually he cut us off, "guys the random encounter orc doesn't know anything about the plot, can we please move on".

Gavinfoxx
2013-01-06, 01:15 AM
What about a flying ship? Flying ships are swank!

Jane_Smith
2013-01-06, 02:40 AM
To question 1: Deeds and old abandoned mansions, plots, ruined villages filled with undead or invaded by goblins or killed off from some plague, etc are always a good way to give players land, but they have to work on it, clear it out, invest in resource gathering, etc to get things repaired and polished up. An ancient keep in the mountains that once held fast against the giants in some dwarven war eons ago for example that is filled with a frost giant and his clan of winter goblins, and so forth, are always neat places the players could clear out, clean up, and set up shop.

Don't forget all the benefits, and drawbacks, of land ownership. Taxes, rent, trade/merchants, hiring patrols, guards, training servants, protecting your area from wild animals and bandits. I would probly track the npc's overall morale and the like and adjust based on how much the pc's do for them - which would reflect the monthly taxes they receive, trade options, new villagers/etc. Though you could just ignore that and give them access to effigy soldier/guards and golems to guard there place. >_>


Question 2: Its natural for people to think more in a unclouded, no-nonsense, practical way in a dnd game when dealing with possible threats then they would irl. For example, in one of my games we had an obvious threatening npc we knew would be trouble if we spared, and we knew he would not give us the same generosity if he defeated us. We simply beheaded him on the spot and went about our business - player's do not care if a npc is plot important, all they care about is making sure nothing comes back to bite them in the ass, and they will do so without concerning themselves over ethical issues, as it can lead to arguments between the party, etc. It is just easier to kill and ask questions later. Though some people are far darker and use the game to vent stress or darker thoughts - and just enjoy watching the world burn. I had someone in one of my games who killed a innocent npc for laughs, and then beheaded his pregnant wife on top of his corpse - needless to say the game ended due to the growing issues between the party and the inevitable inner party war that was about to go off. There was no sense/etc in those kinda kills, he just did it for his own enjoyment. If your players are like that, it is probly best you point them towards some counseling.

Storm Bringer
2013-01-06, 08:54 AM
if the party is working in a semi-offical fashion (i.e. they are getting at least some missions from the local baron/mayor/etc), then maybe try the classic feudal approach to becoming a stronghold-owner?

have a local authority figure call the players into his keep/office/palace/whatever. he offers the party a deal: he was a troublesome area (say, a village near a orc infested wood, or one that's threatened by the baron on the other side of the river, or something) which he is resposible for. he hasn't got the time or the ability to really protect and rule.

He'll make the players the feudal leige-lords of the town, on the understanding they will deal with the problems. in return, they get a cut of the income form the town. the players will have mostly free reign to rule, but are still beholden to the baron that gave them the town, giving you both a feed for missions, and a leash on particually excessive actions.

oxybe
2013-01-06, 09:07 AM
i find the best way to get a "stronghold" is through player character contacts. an old friend asks them to join their guild, a guild-mate tells them of an abandoned fort, the PCs are hired by a local lord to clear the goblins out of a tower.

just do note that if you're giving the players a stronghold, it's not just because you want them to invest in the hold itself, but the area.

by this i mean, if you're giving them a house, you want them to stay there. the area needs to have enough interesting things within reasonable distance for them to want to go adventuring AND return.

however if the only thing of interest is the goblins in the tower, don't expect the PCs to suddenly want to take up tower management... they'll probably move onto the next place that grabs their interest.

to use TVtropes: make it a city of adventures (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CityOfAdventure) rather then adventure town (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdventureTowns).

for example: Angel Grove, Mighty Morphing Power Rangers, is a city of adventure that is besieged by your typical monster-of-the-week. because the action comes to the MMPRs they don't need to seek out adventure towns like Onett, Twoson, Threed, Fourside, etc... that each have a quirk, but generally nothing of interest once the threat is gone.

this is why the MMPR guys can safely go to their highschool and use it as their base (zordon's hillside teleportation hub doesn't really count... they just go there to be debriefed) and have lives when not MMPRing, whereas the Earthbound kids generally tend to wander around and not stick somewhere too often (though they do revisit places).

so yeah: if you're gonna give them a base, make sure this allows for the adventure to come to them, otherwise they'll have little incentive to not just let the fort go in disrepair since there is something more interesting the next town over.

unless you give them Zordon's Hillside Teleport-Hub as a base, but that's almost cheating.

doc neon
2013-01-06, 06:47 PM
Wow. Thanks a lot, everyone, for your prompt (and helpful) replies!

I'm running something of a Cold War-type game at the moment, so I think that, at some point, there will be a castle on the border between the two superpowers that needs to be cleared of monsters, within a reasonable distance of both nation's capitals. :smallwink:

As for the player ruthlessness bit, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is dealing with this. The incident I was talking about, that I should have explained more fully, was that they were interrogating a duergar captain about some officials that had been kidnapped. Since I planned to have additional duergar rush in during the interrogation, I had him allude to more duergar coming to attack them. The players thought that this meant that the captain would send more after them, so the rogue wanted to kill him and hide the body in a river. Honestly, I handled the situation badly, but I was still surprised with how willing the party was to go along with the rogue.

Anyway, the campaign's getting to a point where they'll be dealing with more organized military/mercenary forces, so I think that I'll institute some sort of fantasy-style Geneva convention. Actually, that'd be very good for explaining why both nations use conventional warfare, and don't just teleport in, throw a few Fireballs and teleport back out. Besides not killing captured enemies, what else would go in there?

Waker
2013-01-06, 10:44 PM
Anyway, the campaign's getting to a point where they'll be dealing with more organized military/mercenary forces, so I think that I'll institute some sort of fantasy-style Geneva convention. Actually, that'd be very good for explaining why both nations use conventional warfare, and don't just teleport in, throw a few Fireballs and teleport back out. Besides not killing captured enemies, what else would go in there?

Perhaps a ban on the use of magic that produces disease, fielding undead troops, opening portals to other planes. The first one I suggest simply because disease can target indiscriminately and spread well beyond into other nations, which might annoy the neighbors. Raising the dead could be taboo, not to mention very dangerous if the controlling cleric is killed. Portals to other planes, especially the lower planes, might attract some none too friendly attention.

LibraryOgre
2013-01-06, 11:43 PM
Slightly off-topic, but I did use some incredibly simple investing rules for one game.

Basically, make an investment (most of ours were brokered by the church of Waukeen, but there are other ways). When the investment comes due, roll 2d8*10. That is the percentage return that you see. Of course, with a roll of 2d8*10, your average RoI is only 90%... put in 100 gold, and you get back 90 (not 190... just 90). You had to work a bit to improve your chances.

DrewID
2013-01-07, 12:01 AM
One way to do it would be for the PC's to get some magic item that serves as a key to the stronghold except when they enter they find it run down and half falling apart. As they journey they find a way to upgrade the space. Perhaps there are specific items they find that will repair/heal/expand the stronghold. Or if you want to me more generic, the PC's could disintegrate magical items, and re-purpose the energy within (perhaps with a forge found inside the structure). That could add an element of discussion between the PC's between keeping the nifty stuff they will find, selling it, or 'feeding it to the forge' to build on their castle.

Not the OP, but I really like this idea. Kudos.

DrewID

JaronK
2013-01-07, 06:05 AM
One important thing to remember about strongholds is that many DMs will want to attack the stronghold because it seems like a fun plot point, but if this feels arbitrary the stronghold quickly goes from "fun thing that feels like ours in the world" to "that annoying chore that the DM uses against us." But if you can create a reason why it's there and why it gets attacked, along with a solution to the attacks, that can be all kinds of fun.

For example, maybe the PCs are tasked with helping to stop a massive invasion. They end up fighting to secure a key mountain pass, which has a mostly ruined fort defending it. The fort is held by the enemy. When they take it, they can start to fortify it better and eventually create a strong choke point that can hold off the enemy army. Now they'll start thinking about how to defend it against that army. Once it's solidly defended, reenforcements can push out from that location (and they can act as a strike force). When the war is eventually won, they'll feel like they earned that fort (and perhaps the king can grant them lordship for it).

Eventually, you can give them a two way portal they can use from the fort, which they can have the other end of in an extradimensional space (like a portable hole), which lets them still use it on their later journeys.

JaronK

The Glyphstone
2013-01-07, 10:59 AM
If you can find a decently priced used copy of the Stronghold Builder's Guide, you should get one. It's one of the best rules-supplements ever printed for 3.x, despite being very niche in its purpose...you can make everything from battle tanks to castles to a pseudo-TARDIS to the Death Star (with enough money).