Necromantic Magical Items? & Item creation in general

[PaigeXenon]

Ok more of my silly questions. As I'm sure a few of you already know from a different tread of mine I am going to be playing an eccentric gnomish necromancer mortician in my next campaign. Apart form having an army of undead I would like to do some item creation as well. I have never actually done item creation before and I don't really know how it really works so I will also need some advice there.

Now my real question, What sort of necromantic items can I make or would make sense for my character to make? My prohibited schools are illusion and enchantment but items with that kind of a feel wouldn't really be something this character would make anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

Which item creation and necromantic handbooks have you read so far? There are tons of handbooks on both topics!

Also, of the various classes that can do Necromancy, you know Wizard is the worst at the 'army of undead' thing?

And that, as far as having undead helpers, having an ARMY of undead is less effective than having a few powerful undead, due to how one is limited in undead creation?

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, well, all the inflict wounds spells would be useful in wands so that you can reliably heal undead. But I don't think you have those on the Sorc/Wiz spells list. Someone with more necro skillz will have to point out the arcane spells that can function in this role.

Really, there are many applications for wands. If you create them at higher CL, they can be relevant throughout the game. Also, it might just be me, but I always seem to picture gnome arcanists as wand wielders.

I was thinking of some strange tricks that you could use involving skull talismans (Frostburn). They are pretty cool, vaguely equivalent to potions but with more utility. Should be wary, though, cause the rules for them seemed to allow some gaps that screamed for abuse. In any case, skull talismans are great necromancer flavor.

[PaigeXenon]

currently I am mostly limited to the SRD but I am going to the Pale Master or true necromancer (not sure which i want more) PrC once i get to that point. I am currently working to get all of libris mortis allowed.

I know in core there isn't a lot of purely necro items so that's why I'm wondering what I can do.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, perhaps you can say, 'hey, this core item here is limited, can I research a Necromantic magical item that can do [x]?'

Where [x] is something that a non-core magical item can do.

Basically, you will want to do a LOT of time in custom spell research, and custom Wondrous item research, to overcome your limitations.

Also, consider being a Cleric rather than a Wizard!

Here are various handbooks for you...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9Vzr5hZCPt0J:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D399.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QBrn0Ns7X_YJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D513.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XMPmLkxHPhYJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D394.0

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2242.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-l4zw4GmCt8J:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1570.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2716.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1238.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yBnEfQTkPT4J:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2773

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OTymGDGlg6YJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2733.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:h6unbupAXdEJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D177.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yXOXZRHiYP8J:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D181.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Wqao-ToXqDAJ:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4400.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:V_mE_ynQancJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1002.0

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149464

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3nxs4B2NhHAJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1000.0

But mostly... a character that focuses on making custom wondrous items and custom spells is probably where it is at! Be they Cleric or Wizard.

[PaigeXenon]

Why do people say a cleric is the best necromancer? To be honest I just don't like the cleric class for some reason and every one I have ever played with gets pissy when you arn't a healbot. I really have no idea how to go about custom spells and magic items I have never done this before.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you think Clerics are healbots in 3.5e... than you don't really know Clerics. Or 3.5e. They're healbots in AD&D 2nd, not 3e or 3.5e or PF.

Oh, another handbook...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BdCMFMhkdKEJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2710.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

One of the links I gave you earlier, compares the three main base necromancy classes in 3.5e:

Cleric
Wizard
Dread Necromancer

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OTymGDGlg6YJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2733.0

Here's a link to some of the useful Necromancy spells from Treantmonk's Wizard handbook...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869142/Treantmonks_guide_to_Necromancy:_Gods_Tools

Not lots of 'make a skeleton army' stuff, you might notice... Cleric has more of the right spells.


Here are the relevant quotes from K's Necromancer handbook...


The Necromancer Wizard
Wizard is a class that is 6 levels long (unless you intend to take the Planar substitution level at 10th, in which case the class is 10 whole levels long). Necromancy as a wizard is a surprisingly hard road. The first thing to realize is that you do not have an army of the dead! If you wanted an army of the dead, you’d be a Cleric or a Dread Necromancer. Wizards have bonecrushingly powerful necromancy at their disposal, but almost none of it has anything to do with having a shambling army of animated corpses following you around. Necromancy from the wizard perspective is usually about the Soul, and is a deeply powerful school centered around Fear, Possession, and more recently – Cold.

Hilarious note: All the Unearthed Arcana Specialist wizard necromancy trade-ofs are terrible. Except the Enhanced Undead, which gives an unnamed (and stackable) +2 hit point per hit die bonus to all the undead you make. You can benefit from that even if you one-level dip into Wizard.

Clerics are better than Wizards
At its core, the Cleric is a better class than the Wizard. It gets better armor and weapon proficiencies, better saves, more spells per day, more hit points, the ability to ignore ASF, free knowledge of the entire spell-list, and a better BAB. That's not to say that any particular Wizard is outdone by any particular Cleric, there are some very powerful spells on the Wizard list that are not on the Cleric list. But if a Wizard finds himself casting a spell that's on the Cleric list, at least for that round he's the big sucker.

So while you can certainly make a serviceable Wizard who happens to focus on Summon Monster, this character is going to be inferior to a Cleric that does the same thing. Even more so because there are domains like "Summoning" that give Clerics powers in that field that a Wizard can't duplicate. Such a Wizard character may be a vital member of whatever team he's on, but the fact is that there's a guy in the corner singing everything you can do. Like taking the 7th level of Fighter, it may be "good enough" for your game at home, but it's objectively inferior to other things and will not be taken seriously as a choice here.

Of course, Wizards are in an even worse position vis a vis the Cleric in the arena of animating corpses. While command undead is quite competitive with rebuke undead, and Animate Dead apparently works the same whether you are a Wizard or a Cleric - that's an optical illusion. Clerics get access to Animate Dead early. And they get access to Desecrate at all, which means that all their skeletons have 2 extra hit points a level that the Wizard can't match for some time (remember to construct an altar to Nerull everywhere you want to make Undead, because it doubles the Desecrate bonuses and doesn't cost anything). Finally, there are domains that give real bonuses to your necromancy that you can have if you aren't stuck shelling out for the worthless Death Domain because you are trying to get into True Necromancer (Boo!).

A real dead animating Cleric can have the Deathbound Domain, which gives her an additional 50% to the skeleton hit-die cap. That means that a Cleric's army of the dead at 5th level is bigger and better than the Wizard's army of the dead at 7th level. And using those spells didn't even take up valuable space in a spellbook or anything.

The Necromancer Cleric
Cleric is a class that is potentially as much as 12 levels long, but is actually quite variable in length. Clerics are the default necromancers from the standpoint of the Skeleton Army. It is normally required that you forfeit your ability to heal the party by being a Cleric Necromancer. It’s not like you’re going to prepare a cure spell – that’s crazy talk! However there are some obscure loopholes you can exploit here. Nothing bad happens to Clerics if they cast spells with an opposed Alignment to their own, it’s just that such spells are not normally on their list. A Cleric who gets Undead Animating off of their domain lists or similar other sources can jolly well cast those spells even if they are Good. So if you happen to be a Lawful Good Cleric of Wee Jas, you channel positive energy but can still animate the dead (because you get all those Death Domain spells).

The Dread Necromancer
The Dread Necromancer is a class that is 8 levels long. Early in its life it is a melee warrior, and later on it’s a passable Undead Leader. You can cast any spell on your spell list as a spontaneous effect, which is a unique way to do things and of course is the most favorable spellcasting mechanic ever. Adding spells to your list is easy and fun, the default method is to use Arcane Disciple, which adds 9 spells to your list each time, but more elaborate methods (such as a Ring of Theurgy) exist. All Dread Necromancers, regardless of their ultimate goals, have Tomb Tainted Soul as their 1st level feat. That’s not a recommendation, that’s a simple fact. The ability to heal yourself with your own touch is invaluable, and in the long run you are going to have the ability to spray negative energy all over everyone within five feet of you, including yourself.* If you don’t have Tomb Tainted Soul, your negative energy bursts are a suicide bomb, if you do have it they are instead an vampiric healing attack.

[Divayth Fyr]

Why do people say a cleric is the best necromancer?
Rebuking (allowing one to have more pets), access to the Desecrate spell, getting Animate Dead one spell level earlier, having domains (ie. Deathbound - adding 50% to your animation limit) and a better "base" (higher bab, hd, two good saves, proficiencies, automatic access to all spells on his list). A wizard can try to replicate some of these, but the time and resources spend on that, a cleric can use to be even better.

[PaigeXenon]

I know that clerics arn't heal bots in 3.5 but other people I have played with are stupid I even got killed in my sleep once for not healing everyone all the time. I

I cant use the dread necromancer..... Idk even know where it is from. But let's get back to my questions about items and how you make them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well you need:

Gold in crafting components
The spell to make them
the appropriate caster level
8 hours crafting per day, per 2000 gp of the value of the item
XP to spend
The appropriate feats

And then you can make items. Generally, for 'weird' items, you'll get the most value out of Craft Wondrous Item.

[JaronK]

If you're going to get Rebuke Undead and want to control things that way, the Rod of Defiance and Lyre of the Restful Soul are critical. Together they lower turn resistance by 8, enough to control a small horde of 9HD undead successfully.

Also, the best trick to Necromancy is to get Animate Dread Warrior as a spell like ability. The easiest way to do that involves spell stitching (which should also get you Awaken Undead and Animate Dead free too). Of course, you'd need to turn into a Necropolitan first.

JaronK

[Wookie-ranger]

You have to remember that you will have minions. Lots and lots of minions If you want you can have a near infinite amount of then, only limited by the number of creatures that you meet. This is not very "optimized" and it is better to have only a few that are more powerful (BUT it is fun :smallbiggrin:)
All of them need to be equipped, too! For a while it works to just give them weapons/armor/etc from fallen mooks. As you start to get up in levels you will make/get your Lieutenants, your favorite minions. Those can be the most powerful, or the most thematically fun.
(Rant)
btw, if your DM penalizes you for not choosing the most powerful undead, and you instead go for the ones that are simply "cool" or fluff-awesome; you need to have a chat with him/her. Choosing to be less powerful should NEVER be considered a bad choice, if it makes for a better game. If that does happen, it is a signe of a bad DM, or one that need to lear more about the Classes, and less about the monsters/encounters that he can trow at the party
(/rant)

As for items.
You will need lots of storage.
Necromancers, especially the Armymancers, need lost of room to store stuff. You will need space for your undead, for your laboratory (and other fluff stuff), for your soon-to-be undead (aka, corpses) and for you few metric TONS of onyx. In the early levels a simple cart (or five) will do. But as soon as you can go for portable holes or bags of holding. My personal favorite is the SRD Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole), simple as that, it can be stacked, it practically weight less, and does not cost all that much (its not cheap, but reasonable).

Unguent of Timelessness:
(Un)Dead bodies stink, rot and are generally not accepted as travel companions. SRD: "When applied to any matter that was once alive" by raw, this makes your undead not rot, or at least very slowly. can be handy sometimes. you can talk to your DM about letting the resistance bonuses count, too; but even if not, it is still handy for only 150gp.

Decanter of Endless Water:
:smallconfused: "what? why that?" ":smallamused:undead don't breath." For example: Small dungeon craw, make it a small dungeon swim. Combine with your portable hole to have a water filled pit trap, if someone falls in close the pit, wait an hour, collects loot and a new "recruit". There are very few problems that enough water cannot solve, be creative.

[Gavinfoxx]

Mic has Enveloping Pit.. great for storing stuff. Look it up and develop an alternative Portable Hole...

[PaigeXenon]

I plan on taking undead leadership to make up my army of minions. I really will need to come up with a way to carry stuff my strength is only 6. I see my character carrying around a bunch of unlabeled pots both beneficial and harmful she would know what the are but no one else will. I need some ideas for custom magic items I can make and use during the lower levels of the campaign. Maybe even custom weapons to hand out to followers and others.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh. Which crafting feats will you take? And we have given you ideas. And you are probably assuming you have wayyyy more cash than you do; your cash should primarily be going directly to make you more effective, or your 'big mean undead monster' way more effective.

Just cause you have 'Leadership' written on your sheet doesn't mean you can break Wealth By Level!

Remember, you need one feat for Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Another for Craft Wondrous Object. Another for Brew Potion (don't, they suck). Another for Craft Wand or Craft Rod or Craft Staff... Another for Craft Construct.

But anyway, the best way to make 'random non weapon custom utility items' is Craft Wondrous Object! And we have already given you examples of useful items to make, read the handbooks I linked to you!

Anyway, here's some more handbooks I missed earlier, for item making:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4-XWlmNL0H4J:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D11066.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D12795.0