Tiamat vs Vaarsuvius?

[dnzrx]

It is common knowledge that Vaarsuvius's Familicide spell have killed ALOT of Black Dragons, which had make Tiamat very upset. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

My question is that would Tiamat extract vengence on Vaarsuvius in the future, or will she do something else?

[Koo Rehtorb]

Gods probably aren't allowed to directly meddle in the lives of mortals. If any sort of revenge was sought it'd probably be through telling a dragon to go eat her.

[ShadowFireLance]

Yeah, About that...
gods restrain themselves from attacking and eating mortals because, well, if the mortal was worth notice, It likely means that they are powerful, and as such, A battle with them would weaken, and therefore give a advantadge to their opposer, In this case, Bahu*caughweaklingcaugh*met, And therefore, Giving the element of possibally loosing* and That is something no god or goddess wants.

*Like this would ever happen

[Arcanist]

Yeah, About that...
gods restrain themselves from attacking and eating mortals because, well, if the mortal was worth notice, It likely means that they are powerful, and as such, A battle with them would weaken, and therefore give a advantadge to their opposer, In this case, Bahu*caughweaklingcaugh*met, And therefore, Giving the element of possibally loosing* and That is something no god or goddess wants.

*Like this would ever happen

Hmm... Idk... I think Bahamut can do fairly well against his Sister if it really comes to that... HOWEVER! I doubt Io would truly let them fight to the death...

Tiamat hates Bahamut. That much is understood (and simply using "Hate" is an understatement on that note), however she does remember her fathers punishment for slaying her other Brother (Exile, for you folks at home!). So technically, if she does kill Bahamut, she has to be careful now because now! She'd have to deal with another much LARGER problem... Fighting someone she doesn't actually hate and is much more powerful then her :smallamused:

Bahamut won't kill Tiamat simply because he cannot. He lacks the resources despite being a God, he is a paragon of righteousness (and thus will try to convert her if able) and he is limited in his followers (Tiamat, for a majority, rules over most of the Dragons ever printed and is cited as having Devils as followers as well. She simply has MUCH bigger guns to fire).

There are many reasons for why they won't kill each other. My personal favorite being that Tiamat wants to mate with Bahamut so that they may create the Paragon Dragons (but, I'm not sure this is actual possible since they change Tiamat and Bahamut's fluff like the seasons...)

[dnzrx]

Gods probably aren't allowed to directly meddle in the lives of mortals. If any sort of revenge was sought it'd probably be through telling a dragon to go eat her.

Wait, Vaarsuvius's a girl?

Anyway, back on topic.

So, Tiamat's not going to get her revenge directly.

But I do not think she's going to allow Vaarsuvius to get away with the act completely, especially after that act.

What kind of action she would take, if any?

[ShadowFireLance]

Hmm... Idk... I think Bahamut can do fairly well against his Sister if it really comes to that... HOWEVER! I doubt Io would truly let them fight to the death...

Tiamat hates Bahamut. That much is understood (and simply using "Hate" is an understatement on that note), however she does remember her fathers punishment for slaying her other Brother (Exile, for you folks at home!). So technically, if she does kill Bahamut, she has to be careful now because now! She'd have to deal with another much LARGER problem... Fighting someone she doesn't actually hate and is much more powerful then her :smallamused:

Bahamut won't kill Tiamat simply because he cannot. He lacks the resources despite being a God, he is a paragon of righteousness (and thus will try to convert her if able) and he is limited in his followers (Tiamat, for a majority, rules over most of the Dragons ever printed and is cited as having Devils as followers as well. She simply has MUCH bigger guns to fire).

There are many reasons for why they won't kill each other. My personal favorite being that Tiamat wants to mate with Bahamut so that they may create the Paragon Dragons (but, I'm not sure this is actual possible since they change Tiamat and Bahamut's fluff like the seasons...)


*Cracks kunckles*

Tiamat does hate Bahamut, But It depends on the fluff:
Ex: Are we using Variel, or The Splitting fluff?
If Variel, Then yes, She hates him, simplely because things happen, Io is not clearly stated as anything other (Based on fluff) then a Overdeity, on Par with most Elder through Time Lords.

Bahamut Would kill Tiamat, If he got the chance, But His main goal IS to conform her.
In the same vein, Tiamat is less powerful herself, but has much, much more resources then he
(Ex: Dragonspawn, Draconions, Evil Dragons, Etc)

She Might, as the instinct of Dragons, To create the Chroallidum Dragons, and yes, That is actually possible.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well I think Tiamat isn't mad at Vaarsuvius as much as she's mad at the IFCC, who made it possible for V to get so powerful in the first place. After all, V is basically nothing to Tiamat without the epic level soul splice going. And she already got them to promise to kill 5 good dragons for every evil dragon that died from the spell, so that will probably be enough to satisfy her anger.



Also, I'm extremely grateful that this thread was not about an alternate version of OOTS in which Roy decided to get rid of Vaarsuvius and instead recruit Tiamat, because Tiamat is a lot more useful than Vaarsuvius and with the proper character growth could be just as much of a team player. :smallsigh::smallwink:

[ShadowFireLance]

Also, I'm extremely grateful that this thread was not about an alternate version of OOTS in which Roy decided to get rid of Vaarsuvius and instead recruit Tiamat, because Tiamat is a lot more useful than Vaarsuvius and with the proper character growth could be just as much a part of the team. :smallsigh::smallwink:

You...just blew my mind.

I GUTSA HAVE THIS IMAGE!

[ti'esar]

Given that Tiamat in the Stickverse is explicitly a fantasy version of the original Babylonian deity (well, by way of D&D), is there any reason to believe that Bahamut even exists?

[FujinAkari]

Yeah, About that...
gods restrain themselves from attacking and eating mortals because, well, if the mortal was worth notice, It likely means that they are powerful, and as such, A battle with them would weaken, and therefore give a advantadge to their opposer, In this case, Bahu*caughweaklingcaugh*met, And therefore, Giving the element of possibally loosing* and That is something no god or goddess wants.

*Like this would ever happen

No.

Gods do not interfere with mortals because godly meddling is what created the Snarl in the first place. There has been an agreement between all three pantheons to -never- act directly as it will further entangle the strands of fate.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Given that Tiamat in the Stickverse is explicitly a fantasy version of the original Babylonian deity (well, by way of D&D), is there any reason to believe that Bahamut even exists?

Who made good dragons then?

[ShadowFireLance]

No.

Gods do not interfere with mortals because godly meddling is what created the Snarl in the first place. There has been an agreement between all three pantheons to -never- act directly as it will further entangle the strands of fate.

In the OOtS World, In the actual D&D World, that is the correct reason.

[FujinAkari]

In the OOtS World, In the actual D&D World, that is the correct reason.

... we're in the OOTS forum, discussing what Tiamat will due to Vaarsuvius due to his actions in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) comic.

I somehow don't think any rationale -other- than the OOTS one is relevant to this topic :P

[Sith_Happens]

Huh, I always thought the reason deities in D&D are so hands-off was because... because.:smalltongue:

[Winter]

Tiamat apparently does not interfere with the living Vaarsuvius. But we can expect something to follow up. What happens if Vaarsuvius dies? Shuffle off this plane and the goddess is free to interfere...

[Jay R]

Tiamat will eventually destroy five good dragons for every black dragon killed that day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

Some questions really are answered in the text.

[Winter]

No, the IFCC had to promise that for not getting gutted by an angry Tiamat.

What Tiamat will do should the IFCC fail (they will, I guess that'll be part of the story told here) is unknown. It is unlikely she can start such a slaughter on her own as good dragons are going to have a own deity (unknown so far, might be Bahamut, might not be) that would have a word to say in this (and other good deities might chime in to prevent such a slaughter).

This all does not matter at all for this discussion as the direction is "Will Tiamat somehow take Vaarusivus into account when it is time to start the revenge?"
This is especially pressing as Tiamat is about to lash out at... someone should the IFCC fail their end of the bargain. She is surely going to gut the IFCC, but it could very well be she includes Vaarusivus as well.

[Kish]

Who made good dragons then?
Dragon, for one.

However. Marduk exists (Shojo mentioned him). In D&D, Marduk is another of Bahamut's names. Of course we don't have any indication that Marduk has a platinum dragon avatar, much less is Lawful Good and yet would intervene to prevent Tiamat from taking revenge on an elven wizard who committed quasi-genocide.

[Winter]

Gods do not interfere with mortals because godly meddling is what created the Snarl in the first place.

I fear I have to point out you are wrong on two accounts.

First: we do know that gods can and do interfere with mortals. It is a major plot point of the story that the gods could not directly interfere in the other pantheons' regions (their direct power is area-bound) so they had to make clerics to do so. We do know they can interfere in their own areas (and we've seen it as well: Thor was about to prevent all kinds of people getting eaten in one of the first comics but got distracted by Durkon).

Second: it is not meddling with mortals that created the Snarl but arguments, power struggles and angry shouts between the gods during the Creation of the World.

[Koo Rehtorb]

First: we do know that gods can and do interfere with mortals. It is a major plot point of the story that the gods could not directly interfere in the other pantheons' regions (their direct power is area-bound) so they had to make clerics to do so. We do know they can interfere in their own areas (and we've seen it as well: Thor was about to prevent all kinds of people getting eaten in one of the first comics but got distracted by Durkon).

Now I'm wondering if the secondary gods have land that they're allowed to directly interfere in. The original gods divided up the world and agreed on territories, so did they agree that the newcomer gods were also to be given territories after that?

[Winter]

Now I'm wondering if the secondary gods have land that they're allowed to directly interfere in. The original gods divided up the world and agreed on territories, so did they agree that the newcomer gods were also to be given territories after that?

I always pondered it but I always assumed that, for example the elven gods, obviously had to get the areas "mostly elves" are settling in. I guess that's the deal the other gods had to accept when they allowed the eleven gods to stay alive.

It gets more tricky with the Dark One. Where does he have direct power? Does he even have direct power anywhere?
I assume he must have power where goblins live (which are mostly areas no one else wants anyway). What about Azure City? Can he press himself through those animals or is that still "unresolved" and he better stays away from attempting direct interference?

All that is unknown to us, I fear. But there surely are a lot of interesting questions. :smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

First: we do know that gods can and do interfere with mortals. It is a major plot point of the story that the gods could not directly interfere in the other pantheons' regions (their direct power is area-bound) so they had to make clerics to do so.

Incorrect. We know the gods can use their powers within their own regions, we don't know that they do. Other than Miko, we have never seen the Gods manefest and personally take action to correct the flow of current events, thus it seems likely that the Gods do not meddle with the affairs of mortals.

A more plausible reading of the source seems to be that the Gods create stuff and engineer quests and just goof off within their own lands, but they don't physically manifest and actively persecute and penalize individuals, they let the situation sort itself out. ((Admittedly, this may be due to a general averace to go to the Snarl's prison -at all- after what happened to the Western Gods, rather than specifically to avoid worsening the problem.))


Second: it is not meddling with mortals that created the Snarl but arguments, power struggles and angry shouts between the gods during the Creation of the World.

And also meddling with mortals after the world was created. If it was ONLY the disagreements during the creation, the limitation on only influencing your third of the world would make absolutely no sense. When we see the "we're going to split up the world!" plan introduced in Start of Darkness the Snarl is explicitly referenced as the reason for it.

[hamishspence]

Thor intervened outside his home region- with that lightning strike. And got told off for doing so.

There's also a scene where he was supposed to fight the fire giant deity (or possibly extremely advanced fire giant) Surtur, who was ravaging villages on the material plane- but was distracted by Durkon's request for spells.

[FujinAkari]

Thor intervened outside his home region- with that lightning strike. And got told off for doing so.

Which is further evidence that the Gods -can-, they have just agreed not too (because of the Snarl)


There's also a scene where he was supposed to fight the fire giant deity (or possibly extremely advanced fire giant) Surtur, who was ravaging villages on the material plane- but was distracted by Durkon's request for spells.

I had forgotten about that strip. Though, we don't know that that is this world... and Surtr is one of the Norse Gods, so that could easily be whatever plane the Northern Gods originally come from.

But its unclear... I would have expected the Southern Gods to have waltzed in and smished Xykon like so much paste by now if, ya know, they could.

[hamishspence]

The impression I was under was that it wasn't intervention per se that was objected to- but intervention outside of home territory:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

[factotum]

It only makes sense if it's *any* intervention that is forbidden. Otherwise, you have to ask the question FujinAkari did, which is, why hasn't some God stomped Xykon into bonemeal by now? He isn't directly protected by another God the way Redcloak is, and it would certainly put a massive spanner in the works of "potentially release the Snarl" if he got destroyed.

[Winter]

Otherwise, you have to ask the question FujinAkari did, which is, why hasn't some God stomped Xykon into bonemeal by now?

You're touching something that is best untouched here. It's the problem all settings with active gods have, it permeates D&D through and through and through. In ancient greek it was solved the way that most stories that were told had the gods as protanogists who were the problem themselves.

"If we have active gods with an interest of specific things not happen - why don't they fix it but rely on some wonky group of heroes to fix it for them?"
The problem is: It is a very valid question, the problem is it simply makes no sense the gods do not fix this or that, especially if you adventure is epic (this does not necessarily mean it's level 21+).
The reason the gods do not solve it because it is a game where the players are the focus, not some NPC (god) coming down from heaven and fixes it.

It is the same here in OotS: Why don't the gods stomb Xykon into dust? Because if they do, there is no story.
The entire setup we have in our D&D rulebooks and adventure books makes no sense at all. None. Zero. Nada. You cannot have active gods (that care) and have them sit back at the same time if everything, including themselves, is threatened.

You just have to accept it is a story about the Order of the Stick and that is it. Otherwise, the entire story would not work. This is true for every game and every story told in the D&D framework.

You simply cannot think about this or the comic/story completely breaks down.

That said, I want to remind you also that Rich addressed that question somewhere (I have no idea anymore if it was in the forum or in some comments) and said to a similar question: "This is a very good question indeed". So why don't the gods fix the entire mess? Well, apparently, there is more than we know which is not revealed yet.

It is in the same category as asking "Why didn't X do Y in situation Z? It would have solved it easily etc etc..."
Rich answered "because the story I tell is that way". It's the same with the gods.

But from the story perspective it is the same as with in and D&D game:
"Why don't the gods just remove Xykon?"
"Well, because. D'uh."

@FujinAkari
I'm not going to discuss with you about this. I knew what you would write when I quoted you - and then you did. I think you're wrong and I leave it at that. First is solidly established by the comic and the reply to second dodges the, imo, big point. I have nothing else to say about this.

[Morty]

In the OOtS World, In the actual D&D World, that is the correct reason.

And since we're talking about the OotS world, this is relevant how..?

[FujinAkari]

@FujinAkari
I'm not going to discuss with you about this. I knew what you would write when I quoted you - and then you did. I think you're wrong and I leave it at that. First is solidly established by the comic and the reply to second dodges the, imo, big point. I have nothing else to say about this.

Perhaps you should refrain from discussing if your response to having your opinion challenged is to refuse to discuss?

[factotum]

It is the same here in OotS: Why don't the gods stomb Xykon into dust? Because if they do, there is no story.


Which is tantamount to saying "it works this way because PLOT!", which is a very lazy way of avoiding a discussion, IMHO. OotS is first and foremost a story, whatever its gaming basis, and as such it needs to be internally consistent. If the non-intervention rule the gods have *does* prohibit any kind of direct intervention and forces them to use their clerics, it neatly solves the whole problem, doesn't it? Thor just about got away with what he did because he was responding to a Weather Control spell cast by Durkon, even if he pushed it further than the spell is technically supposed to go.

[Carry2]

Also, I'm extremely grateful that this thread was not about an alternate version of OOTS in which Roy decided to get rid of Vaarsuvius and instead recruit Tiamat, because Tiamat is a lot more useful than Vaarsuvius and with the proper character growth could be just as much of a team player. :smallsigh::smallwink:
I, for one, am highly receptive to this possibility, and would like to discuss it in depth.

*maintains expression of absolute neutrality*

If the non-intervention rule the gods have *does* prohibit any kind of direct intervention and forces them to use their clerics, it neatly solves the whole problem, doesn't it?
I always though it was sort-of part and parcel of the whole ascension deal. Being on a higher plane of existence just means there are metaphysical barriers to direct intervention in mundane reality(?)

.

[Winter]

Which is tantamount to saying "it works this way because PLOT!", which is a very lazy way of avoiding a discussion, IMHO.

In general, I agree. But when it comes to premises, we sadly have to set them at some time.
I am sure there is a perfect explanation why the gods cannot/do not fix the rift-business. Unless they want Xykon to distrub the rifts, I do not think there is a perfect explanation why they do not stomb him.
Of course there now is the very obvious explanation why the gods are not doing something: They do not perceive Xykon's doings as threat or want him to succeed for this or that reason.

[Winter]

Perhaps you should refrain from discussing if your response to having your opinion challenged is to refuse to discuss?

I merely stated I think you are fundamentally wrong about everything you wrote in that post and gave reasons for it. You disagree and maintain you are still correct. I do not follow you at all and doubt anything you or I could state would change neither my nor your position, therefore, I skip the ensuring ten pages of debate that'll also sidetrack and derail into other nitpicks. I think it is good it ends just there.

[factotum]

I am sure there is a perfect explanation why the gods cannot/do not fix the rift-business.

The explanation given in-comic is that they can't directly fix the rifts without unmaking and remaking the world. As for why they can't directly stop Xykon, that's what we're discussing, isn't it? :smallwink: I think the non-intervention rule is as near a perfect explanation as you can get with the information we have available, but there's certainly mileage in the theory that the gods CAN'T intervene in this matter because it would risk the same sort of destructive in-fighting that destroyed world #1.

Of course, we have in-comic evidence that not all is as it seems with the story we were presented about the nature of the Snarl, so other theories are welcome!

[The Succubus]

My 2gp are going on Vaarsuvius being re-incarnated as a black dragon at the end. As for how he/she actually dies...*shrug*

[JennTora]

My 2gp are going on Vaarsuvius being re-incarnated as a black dragon at the end. As for how he/she actually dies...*shrug*

Maybe you could share your reasoning as to why and how since that seems beyond even a logical leap...

[Jay R]

This would have been so much more fun as a "Who should be in the Order?" thread like Miko Versus Belkar.

[Coat]

God1: Hey, I heard Tiamat squashed an elf who'd gone on a dragon-killing spree herself
God2: What, you mean she doesn't have any followers to eat elves for her now?
God1: No, apparently this elf was sooooo tough none of her little darlings could chew it!
God2: So momma had to chew it for them!
God1: How sweet!
God2: Oh, what a mortal thing to do.
<enter Tiamat, stage left>
God1: Hey, Tiamat, one of my followers has dropped his rattle
God2: Would you pick it up for him?
<diverse alarums, exeunt omnes, stage right>

[Shred-Bot]

My 2gp are going on Vaarsuvius being re-incarnated as a black dragon at the end. As for how he/she actually dies...*shrug*

That seems like a reward to me... I very much doubt Tiamat would give V the honor of actually being a dragon.

If anything, reincarnating Belkar as a Kobold makes much more sense given the indignities he visited upon them.

[dnzrx]

Question:

IF Vaarsuvius dies, could Tiamat claim his/her soul to torment for all time as punshment for that stunt with the black dragons?

[factotum]

IF Vaarsuvius dies, could Tiamat claim his/her soul to torment for all time as punshment for that stunt with the black dragons?

Claiming souls to torment for all time is the schtick of devils and demons, not gods--just look at the IFCC. If OotS works in any way like the old Great Wheel cosmology, Tiamat would only be a position to claim the souls of her worshippers, which would presumably mostly be dragons!

[hamishspence]

Yup- some of those deities that reside in the Nine Hells have their worshippers' become fiendish versions of what they were in life, rather than soul shells.

Sekolah has fiendish sahaugin, Kurtalmak fiendish kobolds- and Tiamat probably fiendish kobolds, dragons, humans etc.