Choices for Fiendish Summoning Specialist?

[killem2]

After a year of being a DM I got to finally play as a PC, and have a Spellgifted Focused Specialist Conjurer who eventually dive deep into Malconvoker.


My DM is pretty fair, and allowed me to take Fiendish Summoning Specialist. I am Level 2, and I am pretty sure next session I will be level 3 with access to Summon Monster 2.

For Summon Monster 1, he allowed a Fiendish Corollax (MM II). It was fairly useful. The baddies had some dang lucky rolls against the color spray.

So, what would you suggest for Summon Monster II (or any other the summon monster spells)?

[Deophaun]

For Summon Monster 1, he allowed a Fiendish Corollax (MM II). It was fairly useful.
That is probably the understatement of the year. SMI netting you a creature that can color spray at-will... Then at SMII you can summon 1d3 of them and basically shut down an army of mooks.

OK, I've got nothing. Um, for Summon Monster II, see if he'll let you get a Fiendish Beholder? Shoot for the moon, at this point.

[killem2]

That is probably the understatement of the year. SMI netting you a creature that can color spray at-will... Then at SMII you can summon 1d3 of them and basically shut down an army of mooks.

OK, I've got nothing. Um, for Summon Monster II, see if he'll let you get a Fiendish Beholder? Shoot for the moon, at this point.

To be fair, it is a DC 13. Of the 6 times I was able to use it today, only 1 failed the save. So either we got lucky at beating some nasty level 5s at level 2, or he got really lucky on roles.

I like the ability, but even my own color spray at a dc of 15 got saved on.

Its an awesome spell when it hits, but its not nearly as much of a seal the deal spell as most make it out to be here.


EDIT I looked up the Beholder, I thought maybe you were referring to some smaller version or something, but 11hd at level 3, is not going to fly. And I don't care how awesome color spray seems to be around here, having that on a SM1 list and having a 11hd behemoth is not the same kind of imbalance, if that is why you suggested it.

Ah well. I'll just keep sifting through books.

[Deophaun]

To be fair, it is a DC 13.
It's a level 1 summon that spams the best low-level SoD in the game. There's no point in memorizing color spray at all with this thing.

At worst, it's a good Summon Monster III critter (and certainly not of the fiendish variety). It does not belong at Summon Monster I. The thing has DR/silver, for Pelor's sake! How do you think this is anywhere in line with, say, a fiendish hawk, which is what it probably would replace? The first clue that something was off should have been that you got it from MMII.

If your DM's cool with it, by all means. But there are some important wires crossed here.

[killem2]

It's a level 1 summon that spams the best low-level SoD in the game. There's no point in memorizing color spray at all with this thing.

At worst, it's a good Summon Monster III critter (and certainly not of the fiendish variety). It does not belong at Summon Monster I. The thing has DR/silver, for Pelor's sake! How do you think this is anywhere in line with, say, a fiendish hawk, which is what it probably would replace? The first clue that something was off should have been that you got it from MMII.

If your DM's cool with it, by all means. But there are some important wires crossed here.

It wasn't getting hit by the melee because it did hover and spam, and it wasn not getting through. It lasts for 3 rounds. (right now).

I'm not saying it is not powerful. That's why I chose it because it is powerful, but if you are suggesting that its powers have the effect that an 11hd creature would with well anything from SM 2-6, I think you are OVER estimating what this birdy can do. The one summon in which it did die, it died to what had to have been a level 3 caster slinging magic missles at it. I assume at worst it would have to roll a 9 on a SR roll and it did twice. Maybe it was a level 4 caster, I don't know.

Point is, yes, its powerful, but it isn't superman.

He allowed it, he must not see it being a problem, and may build for it who knows. Would I allow it as a dm? I probably would too, but then again I do tend to throw tough stuff around.

[Deophaun]

It wasn't getting hit by the melee because it did hover and spam, and it wasn not getting through.
Your DM had some good rolls. Doesn't mean anything.

It lasts for 3 rounds. (right now).
As does a fiendish hawk. What's your point?

I'm not saying it is not powerful. That's why I chose it because it is powerful, but if you are suggesting that its powers have the effect that an 11hd creature would with well anything from SM 2-6, I think you are OVER estimating what this birdy can do.
I am saying that it is beyond the power level of Summon Monster I, and more in line with Summon Monster III (like, say, a dretch). If your DM is inflating SMI's power that much, then it's not unreasonable to think he'd inflate SMV to be the equivalent of SMVII or an unheard of SMVX. Sky's the limit at that point.

The one summon in which it did die, it died to what had to have been a level 3 caster slinging magic missles at it. I assume at worst it would have to roll a 9 on a SR roll and it did twice. Maybe it was a level 4 caster, I don't know.
And if it was a Summon Monster I appropriate monster, the caster would have had to roll a 3.

Point is, yes, its powerful, but it isn't superman.
At that level of spell power, it may as well be.

He allowed it, he must not see it being a problem...
The problem is that what you and your DM's idea of what is and is not a problem is so far out of whack that it makes it impossible to recommend anything for your request. Beholder at SMV could well be perfectly reasonable. Maybe a Nightwing for Summon Undead IV. Who knows?

[Akal Saris]

For SM II, why not ask about an Abyssal Maw or a Abyssal Ravager? (Both are MM2, Pg 57).

[killem2]

Before I reply, our starting ECL for this very first session, was 2.


For SM II, why not ask about an Abyssal Maw or a Abyssal Ravager? (Both are MM2, Pg 57).

Thanks for the suggestions, I will try :). I think the only reason the Corrolax made it through was the AC and HP for the types of things were were fighting. I think I as get higher up on the SM chain, it is going to be more and more difficult to get anything through.


Your DM had some good rolls. Doesn't mean anything.
Oh please dude, it means EVERYTHING. I expect results when I cast things. You are trying to tell me, that during an entire session, multiple uses of this damn bird and failing on all but 1 blast of color spray on one enemy? We almost died. Do you typically keep casting the same spells and use the same abilities only because this forum makes them out to be amazing? No, if the dice shoot me down, I start to switch for reliability.

Doesn't mean anything? HA. Ok.



As does a fiendish hawk. What's your point?

Because our fights lasted longer than 3 rounds? During through three rounds there was basically zero results.



I am saying that it is beyond the power level of Summon Monster I, and more in line with Summon Monster III (like, say, a dretch). If your DM is inflating SMI's power that much, then it's not unreasonable to think he'd inflate SMV to be the equivalent of SMVII or an unheard of SMVX. Sky's the limit at that point.

You suggest an 11hd creature for a level 3 spell. I suggested a 1/2 cr monster. The AC is **** for all intent and purposes, our Half-Giant psychic warrior was getting eaten into by KOHBOLDS this session and his AC was 18. If I would have pulled it out in the room with the cross bow users and long bow users it would have died. Easily. Trying to have that thing go around and spam a spell that had been failing most of the time seems like a quite stupid tactic.




And if it was a Summon Monster I appropriate monster, the caster would have had to roll a 3.

And it was a caster of the appropriate level, we would not need the bird, we could have went for a coffee break and let the Half Giant murder them all.

Also, they made my own color spray look like a joke on will saves alone, if they had spell resistance I’m sure that would have just been an additional kick in the balls.



At that level of spell power, it may as well be.

Like most on these forums, there is way too much theory craft, and not enough results. I doubt superman would have the legacy he does today if only once in 10 attacks he managed to actually do something to the enemy, because that's what it felt like.



The problem is that what you and your DM's idea of what is and is not a problem is so far out of whack that it makes it impossible to recommend anything for your request. Beholder at SMV could well be perfectly reasonable. Maybe a Nightwing for Summon Undead IV. Who knows?

No, the problem is you. I told you it sucked ass in practice, it didn't help me, so for me, it was a useless monster.

When I or my DM, run a session, we don't just strictly look at CR for encounters.

Maybe when I can summon more than 1 at a time, it'll become more effective as the probability and number of rolls I can get increases. And at that point if it becomes a major issue, and my DM vetoes it, fine, its vetoed, I'll come back, ask again, and get nowhere.

Like usual, on these boards, you see only the end game, the big picture, the big swing, the optimization. You look at this monster and only see ZOMG COLORSPRAYZZZ!!!!!111!!!!

Did it ever occur to you, that maybe I don't go around summoning this creature just to wreck my dms day?

Or maybe that the creatures in our encounters are not based 100% of CR?

Maybe that they creatures we fight are not mindless drones and don't attack in perfect 15' cones?

You seem to think we play in a session where the players get access to everything to make their characters but the DM only uses DMG/PHB/MM 1.
If you don't have any real suggestions, fine, you don't need to reply. If I knew I was going to have to report back like a stenographer on my sessions before asking for advice I'd find another forums.

[urandom]

Oh please dude, it means EVERYTHING. I expect results when I cast things. You are trying to tell me, that during an entire session, multiple uses of this damn bird and failing on all but 1 blast of color spray on one enemy? We almost died. Do you typically keep casting the same spells and use the same abilities only because this forum makes them out to be amazing? No, if the dice shoot me down, I start to switch for reliability.

Doesn't mean anything? HA. Ok.


Is this dice superstition? Getting lucky or unlucky doesn't change your future expectations. The fact is you are getting three color sprays for the cost of a level 1 slot. Color spray is already an awesome level 1 spell. If your risk appetite is low, by all means look for a "no save just ___". Those are loved because they are consistent, but they are difficult to find, and don't do as much.