[3.5] Random Gestalt

[Burley]

Hello, my friends. I've missed you.

Now that we've exchanged pleasantries, I'm preparing myself for a campaign in the possible future to give my DM a break, if he decides he needs it. My idea is a gestalt game, with my group drawing random race/class combinations from a hat. My goal is to have a party without overlapping character roles, and give the group (which is mostly made of players who have only played their one, current character) a challenge and encourage them to learn and understand rules they aren't used to, because I don't want to explain rules as though they are esoterica, anymore.

So, I guess I'm looking for suggestions of things to put in the hats. I think I'm going to stay away from wizards, because the wizard//X combos can be a bit much, and casters are something they've never messed with.

Needs:
-Interesting LA 0 races
-Classes to watch for (not worried about cheese, just difficulty)
-Suggestions for "redraw" penalties ('cause they gotta learn)
-Ideas for a few sessions that aren't tailor made for any specific group
-Success/horror stories from people who've done this


Thanks, y'all. I love you.

[Toliudar]

You're running gestalt and you want to do LESS rules explaining? Whew.

A consideration: some gestalt combinations are dramatically better than others. Even within core, some are impossible (Monk/Barbarian, for instance). If you draw twice to get both sides of the gestalt, you're going to end up with even greater disparities in power/versatility than in a normal game.

May I recommend that you put in a few gestalt combinations on ONE slip of paper, so that someone draws (for instance) Rogue/Sorcerer or Bard/Barbarian, rather than drawing twice to get the two sides of the gestalt. It's possible that this is what you intended all along, and I'm just mis-reading your post.

If you're looking for relatively simple classes, I'd suggest that spontaneous casters (with a spell list that you pick for them, so that they only have to learn a few spells that they use over and over again), rogues, scouts, rangers, barbarians, warlocks and dragonfire adepts all have fairly clear mechanics and straightforward roles.

[Burley]

I really don't want to have the combos predetermined. At that point, I'm sorta taking the random luck out of it.
And, you're correct that some things are difficult to deal with. But, one of the side-effects I'm hoping for is the players learning that you can focus on certain elements of a class and less on others. MAD classes don't have to be so MAD if there are abilities from another class. (An unarmed Monk/Barbarian would work pretty well, since there is a homebrewed one in the party currently. Not gestalt, but really close to it.)

Of course, that isn't to say that some things won't be superfluous, which is why I want a redraw penalty, or rather, redraw system. Maybe:
"You can only redraw one side, determined by a coin flip. No trading of classes or races with other players. Extra redraws (unless necessary) will result in a random character penalty. (Possibly a roll on the traits chart the first time, flaws chart the second.)"

I suppose for fairness, there'll have to be a roll to decide gets to draw first, and I need to decide if redraws happen after everybody has drawn, or before the next player draws.

[SilverLeaf167]

Technically, a Monk/Barbarian gestalt wouldn't really work under any circumstance (without homebrew of course) since Monks have to be Lawful and Barbarians have to be Chaotic. It's possible on the same side of the gestalt though: take X levels of Monk, become Chaotic, take X levels of Barbarian.

More on topic, I don't really find this idea that great. It reminds me of the older editions where pretty much everything about your character could have been random. Of course, it might work just fine for your players, it's hard for us to tell. However, I don't think it would help make the rules much easier to understand and roleplaying tends to suffer when players create their character concepts around the builds instead of the other way around (especially when said builds are totally random).

[JaronK]

Honestly, I don't think it's a very good idea, especially for a learning game. Gestalt is rough already, and nobody likes having random characters.

If your issue is overlap, may I suggest starting characters as NPC classes based on the roles they'd like to fill (Warrior, Expert, or Adept). Then when they've got that down, let them switch out those classes for simple PC versions that fit in those roles (Fighter, Rogue, Healer, Warmage). And you can keep switching them up to stronger and more complex classes over time when they're ready.

JaronK

[Burley]

Of course, it might work just fine for your players, it's hard for us to tell. However, I don't think it would help make the rules much easier to understand and roleplaying tends to suffer when players create their character concepts around the builds instead of the other way around (especially when said builds are totally random).

The group, being sorta new to RPing, is light on character concept. It's sorta: "At a young age, I discovered I was good at using a sword and also I could use some spells." Also, every character has a bit of taint, and some of 'em hug the RP effects of that.

The secondary stipulation was going to be that they would find a roll within the village that a first level X//Y could fill. If not a profession, then something to give them a reputation in the village, eg. Street Gang Member, Neighborhood Drunk, Charity Case.

I sorta wanted them to build a concept around the random build, since they're already in the habit of making up the RP aspects after the sheet is filled out. First step is for them to learn the system better. Roleplaying will come about during play. (I'm wary of saying certain things, as they may read this thread.)

It may be better, though, to have the players draw character concepts and one half of the gestalt at random, and build from there. I can put in classes that they aren't used to, and let them choose how much familiarity they want for the other side.

Does that seems like it'd be more inviting? (Also, sorry for the long-ish posts. Thinking and typing as I go so I can track my chain of thought with the suggestions given.)

[SilverLeaf167]

Drawing only one side of the gestalt and choosing the other one afterwards (which I assume you meant) would work way better and be more fun, since almost every randomly drawn class has at least some class that it works well with in a gestalt build. For example, I'd be much more content with drawing a Rogue and mixing it with, say, a Bard or Wizard (what sources are you using?) than choosing a Barbarian and then drawing a Wizard for the other side.

Ok, fine, it's really hard to think of examples where the two sides of gestalt actually hamper each other, but it's very common that the other one simply doesn't bring much to the build (like a Fighter/Barbarian, though that depends on the optimization level). Such a build might end up weak and boring compared to the rest of the party. Also, it's actually rather hard to think of meaningful gestalts within core.

[Gandariel]

i agree with "get a random class, you can pick the second one".

Penalty for redraw would be a lower Point Buy.

[Toliudar]

I thoroughly endorse the minimizing of random selections! Let them draw for one aspect of the character, and then build on it with a second gestalt class and basic race as they see fit. If they're just learning, you don't really want to be tossing additional weird races or subsystems (psionics, binding, incarnum, etc), unless you build around one of those subsystems for the game and it becomes about that.


Needs:
-Interesting LA 0 races

If you want to build RP as you go, and have everyone start out in the same home town, why not start everyone with human? It's a good race for pretty much any build, the mechanics and psychology are easy, and it's one less weird thing for them to build on.


-Classes to watch for (not worried about cheese, just difficulty)
At first level, nothing's going to be particularly hard. Prepared casters - especially clerics and druids, where there are so many possible spells to select - can be a bit overwhelming. Conversely, spontaneous casters and invocation users can really be hosed by a few unfortunate spell/invocation choices.


-Suggestions for "redraw" penalties ('cause they gotta learn)
You're starting at first level? How about a point of 'bad karma' - a threat that, at some point in the first few sessions, something will go against the character. Whether you actually go through with the threat or simply use it as a deterrent is up to you.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are insistant about both classes being drawn, put two classes on each slip, and they draw 2 slips and have to pick 1 class from from each slip. I reduces the chances of players getting getting absolute stinker, while maintaining a lot of randomness. Have each player draw, and decide on the spot, then move on to the next player, so players further down the line have the chance to fill in important roles. If the first player chooses rogue//wizard the next player realizes that they still don't have a healer, and might pick cleric to ensure they have one.

If redraws are important to have start 32 pb, and drop two points for the redraw,.

alternately, allow a player to just pick 1 of his classes in exchange for a few stat points (while keeping one of his drawn classes). This ensures that players get something pretty good, while maintaining a cost for doing so.

[Darrin]

Draw three, pick two. That should cut down on some of the illegal combos.

(Although if Ratcatcher isn't one of the choices, you're doing it wrong. =)

[JaronK]

At the very least, considering letting them pick a role and then randomly chosing from that role. For example, if they pick "fighter" they randomly chose from Warblade, Crusader, Fighter, Hexblade, Duskblade, Barbarian. If they chose "healer" they randomly pick from Cleric, Healer, Crusader, Bard, Binder. Or something.

JaronK