New-ish 3.5 player needs help with a Bard

[Fein_Delta]

Hi there - long time lurker, posting for the first time to ask for help with my character for a friends campaign. I've played a reasonable amount of 3.5, although it was several years ago while I was still in college, and a reasonable amount of 4th, so I have a pretty good handle on the basics, but I'm a bit rusty on specifics and I need help with a few things about making a bard.

The DM will mostly be running core books, but is mostly okay with splat content as long as I let him know what it is and does.

My character is going to be a human bard (Campaign and story reasons, fits really well and I like the idea we came up with for it).

Starting at 2nd level, the stats I rolled are 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 10.

I was thinking

Str 14
Con 13
Dex 11
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 16

So I should have 7 starting HP, 36 base skillpoints, plus another 8 at next level, right?

The rest of the party is a Rogue, Wizard and Cleric - I know the cleric is leaning heavily toward a melee presence (Cleric of Kord) so I was thinking of using a longsword or a rapier and a shield myself.

Someone more experience in 3.5 recommend a couple of alternate class features - I know there was one pointed out that replaced Countersong, but I forget what it was. It did seem like a good idea. Whether I should bother with this, I'm open to suggestion on.

I also had the feat Melodic Casting suggested to me, which lets me use Perform instead of Concentration, which seems like a good idea for freeing up some skillpoints, especially since I will most likely be the party face.

I was thinking something like

Perform (Violin)
Perform (Dance)
Spellcraft
UMD
Bluff
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Disguise
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Nobility)
Balance
Tumble

Although exactly how I should divvy up the points I've got, I'm not sure on.

With a 16 cha I get 1 bonus first level spell, so that's 2 first level and 5 zero-th level at level 2. Thinking Summon Monster 1, and Hypnotism or Sleep?

Also unsure what my first two feats should be.

Equipment and money aren't something I need to worry about yet, we're having an introductory session in a couple of days to work out group details, get more on the campaign, etc.

Any help is much appreciated!

[Yuki Akuma]

I would putting the 14 in Int and the 15 in Dexterity and taking Two-Weapon Fighting - Bards have access to ways of adding bonus damage per attack, so hitting a lot can add up to dealing more damage than a single attack with high Strength. Plus, high Dex gives you extra AC and a bonus on your Dex-based skills.

I'd also recommend being a Silverbrow Human for access to Dragonfire Inspiration (both Dragon Magic), if you have that book. :smallwink:

Those are all good skills (especially UMD), although remember you only need to max out one Perform skill for your Bardic Music.

There's also Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), which allows you to spend a bardic music use to add your Charisma to attack rolls made with one-handed and light slashing weapons for a few rounds and then makes you fatigued, if you're going the melee-Bard route. As you have Perform (Dance), you don't even need to change any skills to qualify!

Edit: Oh, and yes, Summon Monster spells are very good to have.

[Fein_Delta]

Ooh, good point on twf.

So 11,13,15,14,10,16?

I'll look the other suggestions up.

[Fein_Delta]

Or should I go 13,11,15,14,10,16? Or is that leaving Con a bit too low?

[Qc Storm]

I don't think you can TWF while using Snowflake Wardance. I think it requires your other hand to be empty.

[Fein_Delta]

According to the book, no, TWF is fine, it says no shields, medium or heavy armour or loads.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think you can TWF while using Snowflake Wardance. I think it requires your other hand to be empty.

You can totally TWF with Snowflake Wardance. You just can't use a shield.

[Juntao112]

This (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445) may prove useful.

[gorfnab]

These may prove useful.
Bard Handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,683.0.html)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)

[Sgt. Cookie]

This may also be of help to you. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266297) [/shamelesselfplug]

[Fein_Delta]

Thanks for the links guys, having a read over now.

[Immabozo]

The best help you can get about playing a bard is this: play something else.

[demigodus]

The best help you can get about playing a bard is this: play something else.

Patently false. Bards can be excellent characters with a bit of work. If you are new and can't do it on your own, just get someone to help you. The only problem with bards, is that they do not have any single splat book dedicated to them. They get a little bit here, a little bit there, and a little bit more over there. So they need a few splat books to truly shine, but they can be pretty good even using core only.

[Norin]

The best help you can get about playing a bard is this: play something else.

Way too harsh! :smalltongue:

Bards are good fun imo.

Going DFI with a decent sized party is decently powerful, also going into Sublime Chord will make you a pretty decent caster too with 9th lvl spells.

I could go on forever about what you can do with a bard, but people have posted the guides already. :smallbiggrin:

edit- that was alot of "decent"...

[Yuki Akuma]

The best help you can get about playing a bard is this: play something else.

Bards are actually a very good class.

[Kaustic]

I would suggest taking a general Perform and making that your main stay, and having 1 skill point in the others. As well, instead of Perform(Violin) you might want to try Perform(Strings), (Percussion), (Woodwind). Using the associated group name of the insturment. A DM that's picky might not let you use Perform(Violin) for a Mandolin or Lute.

I am now playing a Cleric//Bard in a Gestalt game, and I've already had the DM cringe in terror at how many Dice I can add to the Dragonfire Inspiration at level 8. He had to cap me to my Hit Dice :smallfrown:

[Norin]

Also an introduction to some caster maxing as Bard:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8595585

BARDZILLA! :smallfurious: RAWWWRRR!!!

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some alternate links to the handbooks for you:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D8284

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9830

Those will most definitely help you make a competent Bard!

Remember, Perform Sing and Perform Oratory are Performance types you can do while doing other actions, like 'attacking'...

[barna10]

Alternate Class Features (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III)

[Laserlight]

I'd recommend you only have one Perform, to conserve skill points; and that you select a Perform that can be used while you have a weapon in one or both hands.

[barna10]

I'd recommend you only have one Perform, to conserve skill points; and that you select a Perform that can be used while you have a weapon in one or both hands.

I'd recommend you take a Preform you don't mind acting out in case your DM requires you to "perform" to get some roleplaying points.

[Togo]

I'd recommend the versatile performer feat. I generally take it over melodic casting, partly because it's so embarassing to have to tell people I can only sing, and can't play any instuments, and partly because access to all the masterwork instrument special rules in complete adventurer makes bardsong much more flexible.

You don't have many feats, so try to focus either on bows (with rapid shot for multiple attacks) or melee (TWF for multiple attacks). If you go the melee route, make sure you get tumble, and buy some throwing weapons (since you can use TWF with them). Bards can be fragile, so make sure you have a distance weapon for those fights where you really don't want to get anywhere near the opponent.

Don't take Monster Summoning at first level, as the monsters won't last long enough to be useful. Sleep is an excellent low level spell, but rapidly becomes obsolete as you rise in level - trade it in at 4th level for something else.

There are a large number of bardic spells that sound great but give you morale bonuses. These don't stack with bardsong, so try and avoid them.

Consult with the rest of the party. If you avoid taking all the same skills as the rogue (you both need tumble), and avoid taking the same spells as the wizard (particularly sleep and grease), the party will be better off overall, and the game more fun.

[Fein_Delta]

I'd recommend the versatile performer feat. I generally take it over melodic casting, partly because it's so embarassing to have to tell people I can only sing, and can't play any instuments, and partly because access to all the masterwork instrument special rules in complete adventurer makes bardsong much more flexible.

You don't have many feats, so try to focus either on bows (with rapid shot for multiple attacks) or melee (TWF for multiple attacks). If you go the melee route, make sure you get tumble, and buy some throwing weapons (since you can use TWF with them). Bards can be fragile, so make sure you have a distance weapon for those fights where you really don't want to get anywhere near the opponent.

Don't take Monster Summoning at first level, as the monsters won't last long enough to be useful. Sleep is an excellent low level spell, but rapidly becomes obsolete as you rise in level - trade it in at 4th level for something else.

There are a large number of bardic spells that sound great but give you morale bonuses. These don't stack with bardsong, so try and avoid them.

Consult with the rest of the party. If you avoid taking all the same skills as the rogue (you both need tumble), and avoid taking the same spells as the wizard (particularly sleep and grease), the party will be better off overall, and the game more fun.Thanks for the tips - we're having the first get-together session today, so checking over skills and spells and so-on will be done today, I expect.

Versatile says it need 5 ranks in a perform, which means i can't take it at first level though, correct?

[Norin]

Max ranks in a skill is your character level +3.

5 ranks requires a 2nd lvl char.

[Flame of Anor]

I believe you can Perform (sing) and stab people at the same time, which is unlikely with Perform (woodwinds) or something. So there's that.

[Socratov]

Ok, this willb e a long one. first I will smite some infidel in a Bard's awesomeness :smallamused:, then I will share my knowledge to my heart's content, do with it as you please :smallredface:


The best help you can get about playing a bard is this: play something else.
I'm sorry, but WRONG! Bards can work extremely well, you jsut have to make choices about what you can do really well, and what you can do only a bit of dabbling in. see next post:

Patently false. Bards can be excellent characters with a bit of work. If you are new and can't do it on your own, just get someone to help you. The only problem with bards, is that they do not have any single splat book dedicated to them. They get a little bit here, a little bit there, and a little bit more over there. So they need a few splat books to truly shine, but they can be pretty good even using core only.
Indeed, you need to do a little of what's called splatdiving. some splats enable your bard to cast like a sorcerer light (a little less spells per day, but still, you can get 9ths pretty easily)

Way too harsh! :smalltongue:

Bards are good fun imo.

Going DFI with a decent sized party is decently powerful, also going into Sublime Chord will make you a pretty decent caster too with 9th lvl spells.

I could go on forever about what you can do with a bard, but people have posted the guides already. :smallbiggrin:

edit- that was alot of "decent"...
Indeed, and that's becuase a bard is a decent character. he is everything he can be: a musical jack of all trades (and master of some if built right)

Alternate Class Features (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III)
this is excellent, though IMO Spellbreaker song, Bardic knack, Healing Hymn and sorry, but this list misses a gem from teh Eberron Campaign setting allowing to trade other songs for feats, for instance: suggestion (worthless anyway, especially if you traded fascination for Healing Hymn) for song of the Heart which is veritably awesome in boosting your IC/DFI which will be quintessential for doing damage with your rapier (and maybe offhand weapon).

I'd recommend the versatile performer feat. I generally take it over melodic casting, partly because it's so embarassing to have to tell people I can only sing, and can't play any instuments, and partly because access to all the masterwork instrument special rules in complete adventurer makes bardsong much more flexible.
just to make an intrusuion here, a well worth advice woudl be to check out Song and something-or-other for masterwork weapons. If you really want to optimize IC/DFI, get a mastwerwork horn and perform(wind instrument) to gain a bonus on dfi dice (which are keyed of to-hit bonus)

You don't have many feats, so try to focus either on bows (with rapid shot for multiple attacks) or melee (TWF for multiple attacks). If you go the melee route, make sure you get tumble, and buy some throwing weapons (since you can use TWF with them). Bards can be fragile, so make sure you have a distance weapon for those fights where you really don't want to get anywhere near the opponent. you can come out and advice daggers, they are fabulous as offhand weapons and can be thrown quite expertly. Daggers, they are DnD's swiss army knives (literally :smalltongue:)

Don't take Monster Summoning at first level, as the monsters won't last long enough to be useful. Sleep is an excellent low level spell, but rapidly becomes obsolete as you rise in level - trade it in at 4th level for something else.
, or be a standup comedian and use Tasha's Hideous laughter, It's what you use beofre you get Otto's Ireesistable Dance to render foes complettely prone and giggeling. Prepare some jokes to tell in session becuase even though it doesn't outright state it, it should be the verbal component of Tasha's hideous laughter :smallwink:

There are a large number of bardic spells that sound great but give you morale bonuses. These don't stack with bardsong, so try and avoid them.
word

Consult with the rest of the party. If you avoid taking all the same skills as the rogue (you both need tumble), and avoid taking the same spells as the wizard (particularly sleep and grease), the party will be better off overall, and the game more fun.
I'd like to add Balance to the skills neccessary to have (5 ranks minimum)

I believe you can Perform (sing) and stab people at the same time, which is unlikely with Perform (woodwinds) or something. So there's that.

I don't know, but if you get a horn in 1 hand, and a rapier in the other it could work. though better would be the feat Lingering Song (songs last a minute now=10 rounds) and just be done with it. Starting a song is still a standard action though (unless you take white raven tactics, but you don't becuase you want to use yoru swift/immedeate action for using badges of valour and casting harmony or somesuch to boost your DFI into the stratosphere). I am also legally bound (by other people) to tell you that taking a vuvuzela to your games to help you roleplaying your horn performance is in fact NOT a good idea.

for the rest, follow the handbooks and nothing will go wrong. If you are still unsure, ask and ye shall recieve :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

I strongly suggest going the archery route: especially if the party rogue plan on fighting close-combat. Bards are rather frail to start with, and your main purpose starting out is to make the others shine.
Bardic knack is a fantastic ACF to round off your skill selection. Don't put points in disguise: it's a waste. I'd rather use a spell or buy a hat of disguises if necessary (or ask the rogue to steal one, ha!).

[Socratov]

I strongly suggest going the archery route: especially if the party rogue plan on fighting close-combat. Bards are rather frail to start with, and your main purpose starting out is to make the others shine.
Bardic knack is a fantastic ACF to round off your skill selection. Don't put points in disguise: it's a waste. I'd rather use a spell or buy a hat of disguises if necessary (or ask the rogue to steal one, ha!).

to be honest, if you go bardic kanck you have more then enough points left to put anywhere... also remember that disguise works in an AMF. the spell and the hat don't...

[Gwendol]

With high CHA and bardic knack you'll be pretty much good to go anyway. Don't forget the +2 synergy bonus from have 5+ ranks in bluff (which you definitely should).

[Fein_Delta]

Thanks for the advice - have been to first session, got a pretty good feel for optimisation level and skill of the other players now, so I'm pretty happy with what to do to integrate all your advice with the others. I will be going something resembling melee, and I will be taking Song of the Heart.

DM vetoed DFI, sadly, but I think he'll be open to me making the occasional adjustment in the long run.

Fortunately, our Cleric is a very good optimiser (Who is also tactful enough to downplay his Cleric) and will be able to help me out as well.

[Socratov]

Thanks for the advice - have been to first session, got a pretty good feel for optimisation level and skill of the other players now, so I'm pretty happy with what to do to integrate all your advice with the others. I will be going something resembling melee, and I will be taking Song of the Heart.
through trading away suggestion song?

DM vetoed DFI, sadly, but I think he'll be open to me making the occasional adjustment in the long run.
you know, every thime this happens Some mythical or divine being kills a kitten. DM's should think of the kittens

Fortunately, our Cleric is a very good optimiser (Who is also tactful enough to downplay his Cleric) and will be able to help me out as well.
that's good. I had a munchkin helping me without common sense. He'd even made a character which even the DM (who is used to epic level displays of silliness in epic games) facepalm mutliple times... :smallamused:

[Shaynythyryas]

I'll never understand all the fuss about DFI : yes, on the paper, it's a hell of a lot dices you can add to damage.
But you lose the to hit bonus, which is to me invaluable (a +10 to hit with a carefully optimized 10th level bard is nothing to laugh about), to gain an elemental bonus to which an annoyed dm will really, really soon make his good npcs immune to.

On the aspect of attacking while singing, I personnaly find it way more "bardic style" to have a lot of items or spell to use every frigging turn. It's way more fun than a "I cast IC then, well, attack". But it all comes to your party compo and if there are enough damage dealers or not.


PS : don't listen to anti-bards people. Bards are AWESOME. You picked a class that, instead of rushing into battle, basically sits there to play music, spam various and strange tools and items, and try to talk the hell out of every situation. If that's not awesome, I don't know what is.

[Gwendol]

I agree in that making sure everyone makes their hits is more valuable than a handful of d6's. But, the trick is that spending two standard actions you can have both. Although, the DM may, as you say, soon have you facing fire-immune critters before long.

[Shaynythyryas]

Yeah, every good thing tends to be quickly countered by DMs :)

One thing that must surely figure in at least one of the few links provided, but is blatlantly broken : the feat Words of Creation.
It basically allow you to double every single effect you can put up by music.

(strangely enough the only thing my DM didn't bother to break of my bard...)

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, Words of Creation does actually have a drawback - it deals nonlethal damage to the user.

[Gwendol]

I've wondered about WoC though: it says it doubles the IC bonus the bard would normally endow, and so I'm prepared to interpret that as the doubling the IC bonus listed in the class description table. Not the sum of all various bonuses given by spells, items, other feats, and whatnot.

[Norin]

I'll never understand all the fuss about DFI : yes, on the paper, it's a hell of a lot dices you can add to damage.

DFI combined with instruments that increase the area of your music effect, add in leadership or put your char in the middle of a battle, and there you have it.

Every lowbie npc around you just doubled (if not more) his or hers damage output. :smallbiggrin:

It's a bit silly and all and very situational + the big chance your DM does not allow Leadership cheese.

And i do agree, Bards are pretty cool.

[Shaynythyryas]

I've wondered about WoC though: it says it doubles the IC bonus the bard would normally endow, and so I'm prepared to interpret that as the doubling the IC bonus listed in the class description table. Not the sum of all various bonuses given by spells, items, other feats, and whatnot.

This one is always source of debates. Some say general rules imply you should consider bonuses in the way that benefit the player the most, so doubling the sum of IC+bonus ; other that you just double the IC then add bonuses.
I would tend to say that as powerful as it is, doubling the base is good enough, but in the end it's up to the DM choice.
(mine decided I should double the sum and even double various other effects, but he just gives me awesome bonus for the pleasure to inflict us with insanely even more powerful ennemies.)

[Gwendol]

I agree, doubling the base is good enough, but if you can swing the other options by the DM...

[Socratov]

I've wondered about WoC though: it says it doubles the IC bonus the bard would normally endow, and so I'm prepared to interpret that as the doubling the IC bonus listed in the class description table. Not the sum of all various bonuses given by spells, items, other feats, and whatnot.
well, by RAW this depends on the order of applying the bonuses and using the spells/items/feats, etc. (hint, use it last and it doubles all)

DFI combined with instruments that increase the area of your music effect, add in leadership or put your char in the middle of a battle, and there you have it.

Every lowbie npc around you just doubled (if not more) his or hers damage output. :smallbiggrin:

It's a bit silly and all and very situational + the big chance your DM does not allow Leadership cheese.

And i do agree, Bards are pretty cool.

leadership is broken anyway, better not use it. If you really want goo dfun, optimise IC and play a warchanter. Use DFI, IC and have your partymember be a full bab class. Then activate the capstone of Warchanter to give every ally in the neighbourhood +lots to hit, with full bab and equal to hit bonus as +d6