Learning a second language

[Grinner]

I've recently begun learning a second language, Spanish.

Can anyone recommend any Spanish reading material, or just give advice on second language acquisition in general?

[ForzaFiori]

1) practice your vocab - flash cards really helped me with this. It's boring and dull, but without knowing enough words, all your grammar skills are worthless - I can't count the times I knew how to make a sentence I needed to say, but didn't know the words.

2) find someone who knows the language to practice with - It's hard with some languages, but Spanish is pretty common, so it shouldn't be too difficult. Being able to practice will keep you from getting rusty, and make sure you stay at a conversational level. Obviously, this will have to wait until you get good enough to form sentences and everything.

3) Try to find a newspaper in Spanish to read. Not only will it help broaden your horizons by exposing you to news from another area/country, but it will work on your reading comprehension and help build new vocab.

[Inglenook]

^ Pretty much what he said.

One of the biggest barriers for me was getting over my fear of saying something wrong. I would carefully plot conversations and parse sentences in my head, only for it to all be swept away if someone asked me a question I wasn't prepared for.

Eventually you have to just start speaking. You'll mess up a lot (especially with verbs if you're only used to English's very basic conjugations), but you have to learn not to be afraid of mistakes.

It was also a lot easier for me to learn vocab from reading and listening to things rather than just studying lists of words.

I also found it helpful to listen to music in Spanish. It helps with listening comprehension and can also teach you important vocab and slang that might not be covered in most courses.

[Jib]

I would say finding the person to converse with is the most important part. Memorization can actually sometimes hinder your learning of a language because it is not natural. Infants do not learn a language because the memorize one word over and over, they learn it by observing the language in use, and because they need to be able to interact with the people.

Another good Idea is to find episodes of shows you like in the language you are trying to learn. It might be a bit to much at first, but once you have a grasp on the language it gives you motivation to understand (You like the show), and an activity that you can do on your own time without finding a partner to help with it. It will also help you sound more natural when you speak the language because you get to hear it used in actually conversation. The news is always a good choice for this one in my opinion, but I like the news.

[dehro]

aside from conversation and going "there".. watch movies in Spanish..if possible with subtitles, in English first, Spanish second.

[Inglenook]

Oh, there's also a show we were made to watch in high school—Destinos. It's a Spanish-learning program dressed up as a telenovela/mystery series. Completely tacky and awful in a way that only early 90s educational videos can be, but inadvertently funny at the same time.

If nothing else, it's pretty good for developing listening skills because they talk at a pace that's easier for beginners to follow.

[Jib]

Another idea, if you really want the language vs taking it because you have to, is Rosetta Stone. I have never used it, but my girlfriends father and mother used it to learn Hebrew years ago and they both swear by it.

[Morph Bark]

aside from conversation and going "there".. watch movies in Spanish..if possible with subtitles, in English first, Spanish second.

Definitely helpful. It's one way how many non-native speakers of English get practiced into speaking it decently enough.

[Emmerask]

aside from conversation and going "there".. watch movies in Spanish..if possible with subtitles, in English first, Spanish second.

Yep pretty much how I learned english, well you will need some basics first else its not very enjoyable but after that movies and series are the way to go imo.

[Grinner]

Completely tacky and awful in a way that only early 90s educational videos can be, but inadvertently funny at the same time.

We called those "nap-time". :smallbiggrin:


aside from conversation and going "there".. watch movies in Spanish..if possible with subtitles, in English first, Spanish second.

That's a good idea. Thanks.

[Xuc Xac]

Memorization can actually sometimes hinder your learning of a language because it is not natural. Infants do not learn a language because the memorize one word over and over, they learn it by observing the language in use, and because they need to be able to interact with the people.


Also, don't translate. Infants in Spanish-speaking households aren't told "manzana=apple". They are shown an apple and told that it's "una manzana". A lot of people speak Spanish as a first language and no one ever explained it to them in English. You don't need it in English either. Going from the concept or image to the English word to the Spanish word will only slow you down. You need to skip the translation step. The best way to learn a language is monolingually. Look up new vocabulary in a Spanish dictionary (not Spanish-English, but one that has definitions in Spanish).

[dehro]

Definitely helpful. It's one way how many non-native speakers of English get practiced into speaking it decently enough.

yah.. those summer holidays spent in Amsterdam as a kid have been a great help with learning English..

[Crimmy]

Sounds like you could use help... from a native spanish speaker.

In any case, yes, all those recommendations are good. Music, movies, all those help.
However, depending on the use you will give to your spanish is the source you will have to use. If you're going to work and live in Spain, for example, you should go for Spanish "telenovelas" maybe, or some classical spanish literature (The Quixote, for example, or the "Cantar del Mio Cid"), and some more modern pieces of literature that are from Spain-based or born writers.

I would recommend reading some adventure books. I have one (which I do not know how hard it might be to find) that is short, but has a wide vocabulary. The name is "El Profesor Ziper y la fabulosa guitarra eléctrica" (Prof. Ziper and the fabulous electric guitar) by Juan Villoro. It'sm eant for ages 10 and above, but from my experience, it has so much to offer for people learning spanish, regardless of age.

[Grinner]

I would recommend reading some adventure books. I have one (which I do not know how hard it might be to find) that is short, but has a wide vocabulary. The name is "El Profesor Ziper y la fabulosa guitarra eléctrica" (Prof. Ziper and the fabulous electric guitar) by Juan Villoro. It'sm eant for ages 10 and above, but from my experience, it has so much to offer for people learning spanish, regardless of age.

Thanks. I'll look for a copy.

Are there any significant differences between Latin American and European Spanish?

[Crimmy]

Besides jargon? Sometimes. Say you want a tortilla (thin flatbread made of corn). If you ask for a tortilla in Spain, you'll get http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_omelette

There are also 2 types of tortillas (flatbread), which are made either of corn (maize) or wheat.

---
And the difference is not only between Iberic and Latinamerican spanish. There's difference between Latinamerican dialects, like:
-Asking for water at room temperature ("al tiempo" meaning "Neither cooled nor heated)) in Mexico could mean you want your water (cold) at the same time as your meal in Colombia and Ecuador ("al tiempo" meaning "at the same time").

[Inglenook]

Aside from vocab, Iberian Spanish uses the 2nd person informal plural pronoun vosotros ("you all"), while Latin American Spanish uses ustedes for both formal and informal.

Don't drive yourself crazy trying to memorize tons of regional vocabulary. It's useful if you plan on visiting a particular country or you have friends from there, but as a beginner it shouldn't be a huge priority. Just make sure to never ask a fat woman at the bus stop "¿Cuándo llega la guagua?" The potential consequences are too dire. :smallbiggrin:

[Crimmy]

Aside from vocab, Iberian Spanish uses the 2nd person informal plural pronoun vosotros ("you all"), while Latin American Spanish uses ustedes for both formal and informal.

Don't drive yourself crazy trying to memorize tons of regional vocabulary. It's useful if you plan on visiting a particular country or you have friends from there, but as a beginner it shouldn't be a huge priority. Just make sure to never ask a fat woman at the bus stop "¿Cuándo llega la guagua?" The potential consequences are too dire. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, yeah, the "vosotros/ustedes" difference. And the pronounciation. Also, "Vos" (you) is used in Argentina and, iirc, other South American countries (though which ones exactly, I can't remember), while Mexico, Spain, and again other countries (which I can't remember) use "tu" for "you".

[dehro]

my handful of Spanish and a keen ear for accents tell me that there is quite some difference in accents and pronounciation between South American countries and Spain... and I suppose also between the different countries in South America... differences that seem to be more apparent to the eyes of non native speakers.

where do people stand on the whole thing whereby in Spain people seem not to speak Spanish but rather Catalàn, Gallego, Valencià etc etc? are those dialects, are they regional items of pride? are there substantial differences? are they just trying to confuse the tourists?

P.S. the word embarrassed is another one that can cause a few laughs..especially when you try and "adapt" it from italian into spanish.

also.. the italian word for butter is burro.
that's going to be one weird toast.

[Yora]

Practice, practice, practice.

You don't have to speak the language all the time, but you have to use it in some way or everything you learn is just forgotten again soon. I really learned English when I started reading english novels. I did already have five years of english classes in school by that time, but even though I only knew 90% of the words, it was enough to follow the story and by the end of the book my english vocabulary had imporoved significantly. Earlier on, I think exposing yourself to the language on a frequent basis should also help a lot. Watching movies with subtitles or listening to music in that language helps to make you familiar with how the language is spoken (which textbooks don't do) and over time you can pick out some words of half-sentences.

[ForzaFiori]

Thanks. I'll look for a copy.

Are there any significant differences between Latin American and European Spanish?

Yes, though they're able to understand each other and communicate - It's like the difference between British and American English. There's completely different slang, different rhythm and patterns, and sometimes entire words are different or have different meanings.


P.S. the word embarrassed is another one that can cause a few laughs..especially when you try and "adapt" it from italian into spanish.

Ah yes, embarazado. probably one of my favorite false cognates.

[Crimmy]

Ah yes, embarazado. probably one of my favorite false cognates.

Thoug we do say that something is embarrassing as "embarazoso", we do not say we're embarrassed as "embarazado (pregnant) but rather "avergonzado" (ashamed).

[ForzaFiori]

Thoug we do say that something is embarrassing as "embarazoso", we do not say we're embarrassed as "embarazado (pregnant) but rather "avergonzado" (ashamed).

words like that (that have one meaning as an adjective/adverb and a different as a noun or a verb) annoy me. Though it does lead to interesting insights about the culture of the language - like that rarely happen randomly in a language.

[Winter_Wolf]

Also, don't translate. Infants in Spanish-speaking households aren't told "manzana=apple". They are shown an apple and told that it's "una manzana". A lot of people speak Spanish as a first language and no one ever explained it to them in English. You don't need it in English either. Going from the concept or image to the English word to the Spanish word will only slow you down. You need to skip the translation step. The best way to learn a language is monolingually. Look up new vocabulary in a Spanish dictionary (not Spanish-English, but one that has definitions in Spanish).

Did you grow up in a truly bilingual household? Because it kind of sounds like you didn't.

To OP, every person learns differently, but I found for myself that immersion was always the real catalyst for progress. Doesn't necessarily mean "pack up and head to a country where they speak it", but it does help when you're semi-forced to do it. You could find ways to resist learning it (most expats shipped overseas by employers are squarely here, butt firmly planted), but if you're spending money and time to go and learn, then you're just sabotaging yourself by your inventive circumvention. You can usually tell who's on a program at a foreign school at their own expense and who's just there spending someone else's money.

I don't know what country you're living in, OP, but if you're in the US and you can't find anyone who speaks some form of Spanish fluently, I'd be amazed. Do be aware that some people will happily do a back and forth ("my language for yours, fair trade"), and some will be completely one-sided ("this time we'll speak English, we can do my language 'next time'" and magically next time they're busy, then they demand to speak English on the next meeting because "that's the schedule").

Actually making friends with people whose native language is the one you're trying to learn has really been a great avenue. That is, friends because you enjoy each others' company, not because you're trying to get something from someone, i.e. using them.

I can vouch for Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone for picking up language, though I found Pimsleur more useful for range, where Rosetta was so heavily into vocabulary that I got rather bored with it quickly: great I know all these nouns and a few other words, but I still can't construct a sentence with them. Pimsleur doesn't do much with reading and writing comprehension, though; it's more or less all about speaking and listening, but you'll likely be illiterate (maybe not for Spanish, but for Russian definitely).

[Eldan]

Yes, though they're able to understand each other and communicate - It's like the difference between British and American English. There's completely different slang, different rhythm and patterns, and sometimes entire words are different or have different meanings.

Ah yes, embarazado. probably one of my favorite false cognates.

My "favourite" one was when I head-translated from German and told an actor his performance was "very pathetic". Which, in German, of course, would mean "full of pathos".

[Xuc Xac]

Did you grow up in a truly bilingual household? Because it kind of sounds like you didn't.


I'm talking about monolingual households. What are you talking about?

[Winter_Wolf]

I'm talking about monolingual households. What are you talking about?

I probably misunderstood where you were going with "the best way to learn languages is monolingually." Then again I pick up language like most people pick up a cold: largely by accident and I couldn't usually tell you when or how. :smalltongue: I grew up with a lot of different languages being spoken around me, I guess. I learned Shanghainese as an adult by osmosis rather than ever studying it or attempting to learn it in any way. I certainly go out of my way to avoid speaking it (I am not Chinese by nationality or ethnicity and did not grow up in China). My wife is forever giving me dirty looks when she remembers she has to watch her mouth around me now. :smallbiggrin:

[Alejandro]

It's kind of weird, but I learned much of the Spanish I know (not a lot) just by frequenting a Mexican restaurant for years and years, getting to know the staff (who are Mexican) and learning to greet them in Spanish, order, ask how to say new words, and so on.

[dehro]

Thoug we do say that something is embarrassing as "embarazoso", we do not say we're embarrassed as "embarazado (pregnant) but rather "avergonzado" (ashamed).

something similar but not quite happens in italian with German and Germany.
we call the country Germania, and the language (and the people) Tedesco.
I went through my early childhood steadfastedly convinced that in Germania they spoke Germanico and were called Germani and that the Tedeschi lived in Tedeschia and spoke Tedesco.
Geography never was my strongest subject

being bilingual can be fun.. until the other Italian kids realise they can use you as a go-between to "court" the cute Dutch tourists sitting around the pool.

an anecdote I always remember fondly is when I was in France on a school exchange thing.. I was staying at a family's house that also hosted a japanese kid who had come over on a ballet scholarship and hardly spoke any french at all.
her family came to visit.. somewhat traditional Japanese family. the father a retired engineer turned painter, a stay at home mum, an elder daughter who had been studying in England. Conversation was somewhat hilarious. The Japanese father would say something in Japanese, the elder daughter would translate in English, I would translate from english to French for the benefit of the hosts. Then it would go the other way around... except by then my English was hesitant and rather new in that I'd formally studied it for maybe 2 years total... so it took a while to get conversations going anywhere.
We did however get a proper explanation of the Tea Ceremony (they had brought a travel tea-set just for the purpose) and a few other cultural exchanges took place.
Apparently in Japan the common perception of Dutch people is (or maybe was, we're talking about a good 15 years ago) of them being rather big and clumsy.. tall, blond, forever bumping into stuff.(:smallconfused:??) or otherwise putting their foot in it.
.. or so the father told me when I explained I was half Dutch. So he was surprised to find they also come in smaller and dark-haired varieties.

[lsfreak]

A big question is, what are trying to do by learning Spanish? Learning Spanish because you want to work as a translator is going to require different skills than learning Spanish to teach monolinguish Spanish student English, which is going to be different than wanting to get by on trips to Spain or Mexico. Though most people don't really have a specific goal beyond being fluent, if you *do* that should shape how you go about it. Perfect pronunciation of Mandarin is pointless if you just want to read the Dao De Jing.

However, if your goals involve speaking at all, be aware that you learn much, much better by speaking immediately. Some people prefer to wait till they think they have stuff down to start speaking (I'm this way, I'd rather learn the grammar behind past tense before trying it out), but really that's going to be a hindrance. The best language learners are those willing to speak immediately and make mistakes. Tied in with this is using the words you have, even if you lack the vocab/grammar to say what you want. Your goal might be "I ran to my friend's place last night at twilight," but it might come out: "I... fast walked [miming] to the house of my friend, yesterday... at the time the sun disappears." The brief thought-pauses are not a bad thing, and help listeners know you're thinking of the word. Speaking around a word you don't know is one of the most useful tools for learning a language, and overthinking and only speaking when you know the right word/grammar is something you should try and overcome.

Unlike everyone else, I'll say music is a horrible way to learn a language. It can be useful in very small amounts, but music messes with pronunciation so much that I've always found it infuriating rather than helpful, being garbled by instruments or altered because of the unnatural rhythm.

Finally, don't worry too much about regional stuff. I'm a native English speaker for my whole life, and I know there's stuff that has different meanings in Britain (or even elsewhere in the US) that, if I ever travel there, is going to cause confusion (as an American, I completely understand my prof eating a bit of supper before going to a British friend's house for tea. I'd do the same thing, and be just as embarrassed when I discovered that tea is a full meal.)

[Aedilred]

where do people stand on the whole thing whereby in Spain people seem not to speak Spanish but rather Catalàn, Gallego, Valencià etc etc? are those dialects, are they regional items of pride? are there substantial differences? are they just trying to confuse the tourists?
This is a subject of some contention, and it is as you identify largely tied up with regional/national identity and concerns. It also depends on where you draw the line between a dialect and a language. The modern sensibility seems to be to err on the side of "language" when in doubt.

In any case, Catalan is definitely a separate language from Castilian Spanish (it's probably more closely related to French). Valencian is considered a separate language to Catalan, partly for political reasons, although they are largely mutually intelligible; the same goes for Mallorquin. Gallego is also separate from Castilian Spanish and is closer to Portuguese. Aragonese is separate from all the above, and Basque, obviously, is something completely different.

Really, what we think of as "Spanish" is just one of many Romance languages spoken in Spain, but because that region ended up being dominant, it's the one that got exported and is thus now most widely spoken. In the Spanish regions, people still speak their original languages, although some of them do seem to be withering (various campaigns to try to eliminate them in the mid-20th century probably didn't help).