Order of the Stick and the Familicide Spell

[dnzrx]

At this point in time, we all can agree that the Order of the Stick will learn of the Familicide Spell and Vaarsuvius's involvement.

The question is that how would each one (any maybe other characters if they are around) would say to Vaarsuvius for his/her actions.

[Mikhailangelo]

It is almost certain that it will earn a 'Rock on, elf buddy!' from Belkar.

[rewinn]

:roy: That ... that was pretty evil, buddy. But one thing at a time. Focus on defeating Xykon

[Jay R]

It is almost certain that it will earn a 'Rock on, elf buddy!' from Belkar.

Along with a renewed commitment to wait until late afternoon before insulting Vaarsuvius. At the earliest. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

[Tragak]

Ok, here goes:

Roy: Knows what it's like to worry that he would be kept out of Heaven for abandoning Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html), so he might at least try to remember that one's own conscience can be painful enough and he (maybe) wouldn't feel the need to make V feel any worse.

Also, he would probably try to remember his speech to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0773.html) about how he knows to trust her in spite of a few bothersome "details" (despite the difference in magnitude)

Possible Roy-flashbacks to his father insisting that only wizards know how to do anything right, which would probably make cooperation with V more difficult than the spell itself will :)

Durkon: ???

Haley: ???

Elan: Will assure Vaarsuvius that V will get a dramatic-conventions-required chance at redemption (then shuts up when he remembers that it would have to be posthumous for something that massive, would talk to Durkon about another resurrection before bringing it up again)

Belkar: Covered by Mikhailangelo and Jay R

Along with a renewed commitment to wait until late afternoon before insulting Vaarsuvius. At the earliest. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

[KillianHawkeye]

I was going to join in the speculation, but I decided that I'm just not qualified.

I love reading this comic because I CAN'T always guess what's going to happen. Because the characters act more like real people than two-dimensional stereotypes. Because even after over 800 strips, this comic continues to surprise me.

So no, I have no idea how anybody will react to the news, but I am eager to find out.

[factotum]

I imagine the circumstances in which the Order find out will be quite important here--I wouldn't be surprised if they don't discover it until the IFCC call in their debt and claim V's soul, at which point, I imagine there will be plenty enough excrement hitting rotating ventilation devices that discussion about the morality of the act simply won't happen. Afterwards, well, it'll be more the "You did something that got a trio of devils/daemons/whatever personally interested in us?" line of argument rather than a discussion of what Familicide actually did...

[multilis]

Miko and V FanFic

The evil Lord Sauron was quietly gathering his forces in Mordor and the eastern human lands. In another hundred years he would have enough army to defeat the rest of middle earth.

The king of Rohan secretly sends an elite group of riders called "Miko Hood and her Merry Men" to sherwood forest in the east to combat Sauron.

For months they patrol sherwood forest. They kill every orc they find, which helps easternling rebel humans resist Sauron. (As any good rider of Rohan knows, you kill orcs first, ask questions later)

One day Miko finds an old person dressed in blue cloaks walking with a staff in the forest. "Who are you?" Miko asks.

"I am Vaarsuvius The Blue, keeper of a thousand arcane secrets. I am one of the 5 wizards sent to stop Sauron, and I need your help."

Miko replied: "I already slaughter orcs, what else do you need?"

Vaarsauvius: "You must kill me. Let me explain."

"I made a deal with the devil to save my family. With the devil's power, I cast a familicide spell that wiped out many black dragons who would have otherwise helped Sauron to defeat Gondor and win in Middle earth. Now I need you to kill me to stop devils from using me to take over world. I can't kill myself, part of deal I made with devils, they get control of me whenever I attempt suicide. Please help!"

So Miko and her riders mounted their horses and strung their bows and circled around V. "Fire," Miko said with tears in her eyes.

For a second V was taken over by the devils, but possessed V could not stop all the arrows and quickly died.

Thus Miko and V saved Gondor and Middle earth, and used the devils magic to defeat the devil and his agent Sauron. Thanks to them, Sauron barely loses the battle for Minus Tirth 100 years later.

And Miko lived happily ever after killing orcs,

The End.



Epilog: Reading the adventures of Miko, a later captain called Roy Forgath is inspired to organise his own team called OOTS and goes deep in eastern dungeons of middle earth, killing more monsters than Miko and V combined. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html Elan casting Familicide http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html



Some goblins argued Roy Forgath was wrong, that the goblins were just defending their homes. http://goblinscomic.com/12162005/

;P (Obviously this fanfic is ethics debate, comparing "evil races" in different stories and comparing V's "genocide" of black dragons to OOTS "genocide" of goblins since #1, etc. What if Roy killed more "innocent" goblins than V killed black dragons? Is good and evil just based on unseen consequences? What if V genocide stopped X from having an elite team of black dragons? What if Roy's slaughter of goblins turned Redcloak into Team Evil and helping Belkar level up created Team Evil #2 that both threatened the world with lots of genocide?)

[multilis]

[Edit: I split my comment into 2 as my fanfic example seemed long, so easier for readers to skp it and read and quote this argument. Hope that is ok.]

DnD: Black dragon "always chaotic evil"; Goblin: "usually evil"


How did OOTS react to Elan destroying an entire vast dungeon of intelligent beings including some good ones? Why should they react differently to V pressing a "black dragon" self destruct button (other than bad luck of consequences)?

How would Soon react to Elan and V pressing the dungeon/black dragon self destruct button? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html "True forgiveness requires that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds... That you acknowledge that you could in fact be wrong"

If Elan is not responsible by reason of lack of intelligence, how about Belkar? Is Roy responsible because he is leader and set example? (Eg: surprise attack and kill sleeping goblins for XP. #0011 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html))

[Gift Jeraff]

They'll spank V.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think the rest of the Order will learn about the aspects of Familicide, let alone about the true complexity of V's deal. At least, not long before V kicks the bucket.

[Math_Mage]

multilis, there's already a thread for that ethics debate, and you've already posted a lot in it, so maybe continuing it in this thread isn't the best idea.

I personally don't see anyone finding out about Familicide before V's debts get called in. The odds that anyone will get to talk to V after that are pretty low.

EDIT: egad dat ninja

[SowZ]

Miko and V FanFic

The evil Lord Sauron was quietly gathering his forces in Mordor and the eastern human lands. In another hundred years he would have enough army to defeat the rest of middle earth.

The king of Rohan secretly sends an elite group of riders called "Miko Hood and her Merry Men" to sherwood forest in the east to combat Sauron.

For months they patrol sherwood forest. They kill every orc they find, which helps easternling rebel humans resist Sauron. (As any good rider of Rohan knows, you kill orcs first, ask questions later)

One day Miko finds an old person dressed in blue cloaks walking with a staff in the forest. "Who are you?" Miko asks.

"I am Vaarsuvius The Blue, keeper of a thousand arcane secrets. I am one of the 5 wizards sent to stop Sauron, and I need your help."

Miko replied: "I already slaughter orcs, what else do you need?"

Vaarsauvius: "You must kill me. Let me explain."

"I made a deal with the devil to save my family. With the devil's power, I cast a familicide spell that wiped out many black dragons who would have otherwise helped Sauron to defeat Gondor and win in Middle earth. Now I need you to kill me to stop devils from using me to take over world. I can't kill myself, part of deal I made with devils, they get control of me whenever I attempt suicide. Please help!"

So Miko and her riders mounted their horses and strung their bows and circled around V. "Fire," Miko said with tears in her eyes.

For a second V was taken over by the devils, but possessed V could not stop all the arrows and quickly died.

Thus Miko and V saved Gondor and Middle earth, and used the devils magic to defeat the devil and his agent Sauron. Thanks to them, Sauron barely loses the battle for Minus Tirth 100 years later.

And Miko lived happily ever after killing orcs,

The End.



Epilog: Reading the adventures of Miko, a later captain called Roy Forgath is inspired to organise his own team called OOTS and goes deep in eastern dungeons of middle earth, killing more monsters than Miko and V combined. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html Elan casting Familicide http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html



Some goblins argued Roy Forgath was wrong, that the goblins were just defending their homes. http://goblinscomic.com/12162005/

;P (Obviously this fanfic is ethics debate, comparing "evil races" in different stories and comparing V's "genocide" of black dragons to OOTS "genocide" of goblins since #1, etc. What if Roy killed more "innocent" goblins than V killed black dragons? Is good and evil just based on unseen consequences? What if V genocide stopped X from having an elite team of black dragons? What if Roy's slaughter of goblins turned Redcloak into Team Evil and helping Belkar level up created Team Evil #2 that both threatened the world with lots of genocide?)

Part of the point is that evil actions, even when it seems they can be justified as for the greater good, long term do more harm. Take the assault on the goblins to kill the crimson mantle. That created redcloak, leading to a chain of events involving Xykon in the plan and making him into a Lich. Certainly did more evil than good, even though it was easy enough for the Sapphire Guard to justify the slaughter in their own mind.

Just like Miko herself did more harm than good. Without Miko's involvement, it is likely Xykon would have been wiped out for good, the Plan would be, at the very least, 'seriously' set back and Gobbotopia may or may not exist.

Finally, V hirself. Yes, you could argue that killing the black dragons did more good than evil, even if the wanton murder itself was evil. But what if it makes other dragons more angry? Or more fearful of mortal races and more aggressive? Even if it doesn't, how much evil will be committed by the IFCC when using Vs soul?

Does the lack of evil dragons make up for the loss of one of the last guardians of existence in the world? Is the world still a better place with entire families being wiped out? Not to mention if the IFCC succeeds even 10 or 20 percent in their promise to the Tiamet, the 'good' V inadvertently did is already totally counteracted.

The cycle of violence is a big thing in OOTS. Violence begets more violence and evil begets more evil. Even if an evil action seems necessary and justified in the short term, it makes the world a worse place in the long term.

[Tragak]

Just like Miko herself did more harm than good. Without Miko's involvement, it is likely Xykon would have been wiped out for good, the Plan would be, at the very least, 'seriously' set back and Gobbotopia may or may not exist.

Finally, V hirself. Yes, you could argue that killing the black dragons did more good than evil, even if the wanton murder itself was evil. But what if it makes other dragons more angry? Or more fearful of mortal races and more aggressive? Even if it doesn't, how much evil will be committed by the IFCC when using Vs soul?

Does the lack of evil dragons make up for the loss of one of the last guardians of existence in the world? Is the world still a better place with entire families being wiped out? Not to mention if the IFCC succeeds even 10 or 20 percent in their promise to the Tiamet, the 'good' V inadvertently did is already totally counteracted.

The cycle of violence is a big thing in OOTS. Violence begets more violence and evil begets more evil. Even if an evil action seems necessary and justified in the short term, it makes the world a worse place in the long term.

No, that makes too much sense.

[Winter]

At this point in time, we all can agree that the Order of the Stick will learn of the Familicide Spell and Vaarsuvius's involvement.

I don't agree. I can see the story roll out both ways. Either the Order learns about it and has to deal with it or it purely stays a thing Vaarsuvius has to cope with.

[Snails]

Both the humor value and dramatic value are heightened by V making actions that are misunderstood by the Order. Until the IFCC actually cashes in, there is no particular reason the Order needs to find out.

In a more logical driven party, discussing the Familicide spell itself would lead to questions about the Deal and the IFCC. Perhaps that is not an issue with the Order, but it is not really necessary to make the Order look stupid on this point -- V will do nicely.

[Psyren]

I don't agree. I can see the story roll out both ways. Either the Order learns about it and has to deal with it or it purely stays a thing Vaarsuvius has to cope with.

Judging by V's mental state, he may just tell them himself rather than let them find out. Certainly the Order is still searching for answers as to how Girard's whole clan got wiped out, and right now Xykon is still the prime suspect in their eyes.

I don't think it will stay just with V though - at least one other party knows he was behind it (Qarr) who has no reason to keep things under wraps. At the very least he'll likely tell Z.

[Morquard]

I don't think it will stay just with V though - at least one other party knows he was behind it (Qarr) who has no reason to keep things under wraps. At the very least he'll likely tell Z.

Don't be so sure. He's a devil and while he's a familiar to Z, he got a higher commitment to the IFCC. He lied to Z about the demiplane he was sending V too as well.

If he thinks its in his best interest to tell, then he will. If he thinks though that that knowledge ultimately would lead to the discovery of the IFCC and their plan? Most likely he'd keep his mouth shut.

[Snails]

Don't be so sure. He's a devil and while he's a familiar to Z, he got a higher commitment to the IFCC. He lied to Z about the demiplane he was sending V too as well.

Good point. As it seems to be proven that Qarr is willing to play Z, deception by omission is not a bad bet, if Qarr were to see advantage.

[Mr. Pants]

:elan:: Why'd you do it, Vaarsuvius?

[Thrillhouse]

Belkar will hear about it before anyone else, based on where the action's currently moving.

[Zolkabro]

I was going to join in the speculation, but I decided that I'm just not qualified.

I love reading this comic because I CAN'T always guess what's going to happen. Because the characters act more like real people than two-dimensional stereotypes. Because even after over 800 strips, this comic continues to surprise me.

So no, I have no idea how anybody will react to the news, but I am eager to find out.

I completely agree. The Giant is a genius, we can't hope to guess his plans.

[Thrillhouse]

Based on Elan's reaction to the killing of Kubota, he may not want to travel with V anymore when he hears of this.

[coineineagh]

Roy has a troubled family, but is close to those he chooses to love. He'll understand V's motivation at least.

Durkon will probably be very alarmed by the potential amount of innocents killed, but V's guilt and remorse is heartfelt, so he'll probably be the most helpful in terms of seeking atonement. The Dwarven Cleric is the epitome of responsible magic use, so V will understand that (s)he needs to learn from him.

Belkar will be flat out jealous. Many nasty jokes ahead, unless the Order puts a stop to it. The Belkster will be the jailkeeper of V's prison of guilt.

Haley will probably react similarly to Durkon, but with less helpful insights. She might be reluctant to associate with V any longer, despite his remorse.

Elan will be the one who reacts the most negatively, assuming he truly understands what V did. All respect for V will evaporate, and there might be some hostility. But maybe I'm just remembering the recent Elan-Tarquin dialogue.

Most of all, I think it matters how this secret is unraveled and presented to the Order. If the beans are spilled by the IFCC or somesuch, that might make things worse. Or perhaps better - the Order will be rushing to find a suicidal V. It all depends.

[theinsulabot]

V has to this point been hiding the details of his contract with the IFCC, that may change due to the current situation, but if it doesn't, and I doubt it will, I am thinking it remains a secret till the ifcc start taking him over and he hurriedly shouts as much of an explanation as he can before they do. Later, V fully explains his actions, but it's not as much of a ride as you might think because the OOTS already knows the bare details.

[malloyd]

How did OOTS react to Elan destroying an entire vast dungeon of intelligent beings including some good ones? Why should they react differently to V pressing a "black dragon" self destruct button (other than bad luck of consequences)?


The big difference here is motivation. Good adventuring parties do kill a lot of potentially non-evil victims without anybody getting too excited about it. They don't do it to torture a defeated foe in revenge for something he didn't even actually do before being defeated. I think V is still missing the point necessary for redemption - it isn't the genocide that is going to damn V, it's the still unregretted reason for committing it.

[Kish]

Yes, Elan's stupidity makes him really dangerous to be around. Potentially even more so than Belkar. We knew this. If we didn't, Sir Francois, the paladin he used to serve as herald, certainly did.

We didn't know Vaarsuvius was genocidally vindictive and sadistic. And--whether multilis cares for this or not--the fact is that people do judge a mass murder committed deliberately and knowingly differently from a mass murder committed unknowingly, unthinkingly, because the murderer in question is as dumb as a box of moldy bananas and has as much capacity for malice.

[Querzis]

We didn't know Vaarsuvius was genocidally vindictive and sadistic. And--whether multilis cares for this or not--the fact is that people do judge a mass murder committed deliberately and knowingly differently from a mass murder committed unknowingly, unthinkingly, because the murderer in question is as dumb as a box of moldy bananas and has as much capacity for malice.

Indeed. If you cant understand the difference between criminal negligence causing death and first degree murder+torture then we cant do much for you. Mind you though, I find it highly dubious that there was any monster left in the tower, evil or otherwise. Considering everything that happened in there, everything was either already dead, fled the dungeon or was too dumb to be considered sentient.

[Winter]

Considering everything that happened in there, everything was either already dead, fled the dungeon or was too dumb to be considered sentient.

Nothing "earth shattering" had happened, only a few fights limited to some corridors and a throne room.
We were explicitly told many levels (haha) of the dungeon were still undiscovered. The beings (monsters and possibly scattered good creatures left by Dorukan) were very likely in there. They either did not notice what was going on (given the amount of stone separating them from the fights that is not unlikely) or they simply could not leave (locked doors, other monsters in the way etc).

But even if those assumptions are wrong, you need to consider that there simply was no time at all between "The Big Battle" and "The Explosion". The only reason The Order made it out was because they knew Elan had pressed the rune moments ago.

Don't be so easy on Elan.

[Jay R]

Don't forget the tactical aspect.

Roy will realize that at some point in the future, the most powerful member of the party will be controlled for about a half-hour or so by a demon, daemon, or devil.

How do you plan for that?

[Tragak]

Nothing "earth shattering" had happened, only a few fights limited to some corridors and a throne room.
We were explicitly told many levels (haha) of the dungeon were still undiscovered. The beings (monsters and possibly scattered good creatures left by Dorukan) were very likely in there. They either did not notice what was going on (given the amount of stone separating them from the fights that is not unlikely) or they simply could not leave (locked doors, other monsters in the way etc).

But even if those assumptions are wrong, you need to consider that there simply was no time at all between "The Big Battle" and "The Explosion". The only reason The Order made it out was because they knew Elan had pressed the rune moments ago.

Don't be so easy on Elan.

But if Elan had single-handedly decimated an entire mountain's worth of sentient life by behaving so perfectly in character,

wouldn't he have ridiculously more XP than anybody else? :smallwink:

[Kish]

As I usually say in response to serious arguments that Vaarsuvius should have a lot of XP for the dragons s/he slaughtered, not joking arguments that Elan should have a lot of XP for blowing up Dorukan's dungeon: D&D awards XP for overcoming challenges, not for killing things. Elan did not overcome a challenge. He pressed a button. It doesn't matter if that button killed the gods themselves, he still didn't overcome a challenge.