I can learn ONE 9th-level spell.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Title says it all. I'm rolling an 18th level Sorcerer in Pathfinder, and I get to learn a single 9th level spell. The campaign is very combat-heavy. As of now, I'm debating between Wish, Wail of the Banshee and Time Stop. Wish does everything, but has a 25,000 gp material component. Wail of the Banshee does 10*caster level squared damage, placing it as probably the single best damaging spell, ever. And I'm not sure if I could live with myself if I passed up the opportunity to stop time. What do you think, playground.

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't know Pathfinder particularly well, but is there a Shapechange analogue? It's the most versatile and powerful spell that actually could see play, in my experience, especially since you can use it to pick up pretty much anything as an SLA or Su ability with enough book diving.

As a sorcerer in a 3.5 game, that would probably be my first choice. Again, though, I'm really not familiar with Pathfinder and don't know what changes have been made.

[Norin]

Disclaimer: Ive never played PF, but from a 3.5 view:

Time stop is just darn funny.

You can deal your damage with lower level spells on metamagic steroids anyways.

As sorcerer, think "spammable" spells. Wish is hardly something you spam... Time stop IS! :smallbiggrin:

[Alabenson]

Like the above posters, my experience is with 3.5 as opposed to PF;

That said, if you have a lot of crowd control/buffing spells, then Time Stop rapidly becomes the best choice, as it allows you to either completely shut down your opponents or buff your allies into mini-gods of death on round 1.

Wish, on the other hand, is really just a big, expensive panic button. Yes, it can save your party from a TPK if things go to hell, but how often do you see yourself actually casting it in regular play?

[mattie_p]

I don't know Pathfinder particularly well, but is there a Shapechange analogue? It's the most versatile and powerful spell that actually could see play, in my experience, especially since you can use it to pick up pretty much anything as an SLA or Su ability with enough book diving.

As a sorcerer in a 3.5 game, that would probably be my first choice. Again, though, I'm really not familiar with Pathfinder and don't know what changes have been made.

There is a shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange), but I don't think it means does what you think it means does.

This spell allows you to take the form of a wide variety of creatures. This spell can function as alter self, beast shape IV, elemental body IV, form of the dragon III, giant form II, and plant shape III depending on what form you take. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.

[Sacrieur]

The thing is WotB is going to outshine other members of your party, unless they're sorc/wiz too.

Time stop sounds best, I should think.

[Fable Wright]

I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder, but...

If you have a lot of buffing spells, summoning spells, or anything that requires setup? Take Timestop.

If the foes you're facing don't have immunity to [Death] effects and have low Fortitude saves? Wail of the Banshee. If it's combat heavy, the Wail will really do a number on everything you face. On the other hand, since Fortitude Negates, if you're fighting a few very high-levelled opponents, it may not be too good.

If a nearby Dragon suddenly decided to actually help you on your quest to save the world and decided to donate his entire hoard to you, personally? Wish.

As Norin says, your job is to spam spells like there's no tomorrow. If you have the spells/items to abuse it, I would place Time Stop on top of the list of spells to learn. Followed up by Wail of the Banshee, since it's useful and spammable. If you do get a Dragon's Hoard worth of gold to work with, though, Wish supersedes all of the above. Spamming Wish = winning Pathfinder.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can import elements from 3.5, take Ancestral Relic (BoED) for a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). Performing the ceremony to upgrade the item allows you to completely switch out what spells it has. If the party would sell junk loot for half value you can buy it from the party for that price, get a portion back when cash is split, and sacrifice the full value of that junk loot into your relic to upgrade it for less than half price.

Iceberg from Frostburn would be my first choice.

[silverwolfer]

Time stop is a mess for a sorc,

[Gavinfoxx]

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1xjPIOH8F8a0l74BdDF7Q23nCfZ-YX68Xr6JmmtznMw4

[Norin]

Time stop is a mess for a sorc,

Why? Explain please? :)

[Tokuhara]

What bloodlines do you have? That will help some of us help you.

[Alefiend]

No, you can learn TWO 9th-level spells, assuming you haven't already committed to your 18th-level feat.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana

[Gavinfoxx]

Judging by Treantmonk's guide, Summon Monster will get you access to a whole lot of other spells...

[icefractal]

No, you can learn TWO 9th-level spells, assuming you haven't already committed to your 18th-level feat.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcanaIn Pathfinder, you don't get an 18th level feat, you get feats at all the odd numbered levels instead.

And my vote would be Time Stop - if you have other spells that can benefit from it.

[AttilaTheGeek]

What bloodlines do you have? That will help some of us help you.

I am an Infernal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/infernal-bloodline)sorcerer. I really like blasting, but I know I need a couple summon, control, buff, and debuff spells too, to round it out.

The rest of the party (it's PbP, so some might not be there) is a Dragon Disciple, a Samurai, a Gunslinger, an Illusionist wizard, a maybe-Inquisitor, and a Hexcrafter Magus. I was considering Eldritch Knight, but I didn't want to pass up a chance to actually use 9th level spells in a game, and I also didn't want to be the third gish in a party.

[Alefiend]

In Pathfinder, you don't get an 18th level feat, you get feats at all the odd numbered levels instead.

Well crap, you're absolutely right. I should have remembered that, since I just finished creating my next PF character yesterday. :smallredface:

[Tokuhara]

assuming that the game hasn't started, might I suggest Crossblooded?

The big trick is to Crossblood Fey and Infernal (Rp as the descendant of a Half-Devil Nymph/Half-Fey [Insert Devil Here]) and you get +2 to the two big Enchantment subschools (Charm and Compulsion) and focus on being a diplomancer/blaster who can take full advantage of both spell lists. Then just grab your favorite abilities of both bloodlines and you are set. And heck, Shapechange is added to your spell list (I'd pick that over Meteor Swarm any day) and just grab Summon Monster 9 and summon twisted critters to do your bidding (insert evil laugh here)

[Grim Reader]

Depending on what material you are allowed. Dragon Compendiums Bloodline feats are a good pick.

[Flickerdart]

Pathfinder still has wealth-by-level guidelines, yes? Check with your DM on whether he considers WBL to be what PCs are supposed to be given, or what PCs are supposed to have. The latter is correct (since the other one is a useless number) but many DMs seem to think that if you ever spend any money on anything then it's gone forever, regardless of whether or not it's actually made you more capable of facing tougher challenges (which is the point of WBL).
If your DM uses WBL correctly, then Wish becomes a more lucrative option. Sure, it costs you 25k, but that money is going to come back eventually, and in the meantime your lack of versatility is patched up nicely. On the other hand, if your DM doesn't use WBL correctly, then there are tons of ways of getting free money that you can exploit and still get your wishes.

[ericgrau]

Time stop. Wall of force. Wall of force. Wall of force. Untrapped foe pisses himself. Take a break and tell the party to call you when the fight is over. Or buff, or summon, or whatever, but if you can only have 1 strong spell then time stop seems to give you the most options while each one is still a super strong option (vs. 1 narrowly useful power spell or a versatile but weak spell). On your 2nd 9th level spell you can get a little more focused.

On that note because presumably you do have good 8th and lower spells you might try prismatic sphere, foresight (with a DM that realizes it is a 9th level forewarning not merely a +2) or crushing hand. These are still frequently useful. Even wish or gate might be possible as a get of jail free card, but then you need to make sure your 8th and below list is extra solid for general use. Given high level treasure amounts (strict WBL adherence or not) I wouldn't be afraid of blowing them whenever you need them without a second thought, but they're still too expensive to spam every day.

Wail of the banshee is fort negates, many things are immune, and PF nerfed it to 200 damage instead of instant death. 200 damage isn't that high compared to most CR 16+ foe's hp totals. I wouldn't take it ever. PF also nerfed shapechange to prevent abuse. It's still versatile and ok, but it wouldn't be my first choice. Probably not my 2nd either.

[Felandria]

Like the above posters, my experience is with 3.5 as opposed to PF;

That said, if you have a lot of crowd control/buffing spells, then Time Stop rapidly becomes the best choice, as it allows you to either completely shut down your opponents or buff your allies into mini-gods of death on round 1.

Wish, on the other hand, is really just a big, expensive panic button. Yes, it can save your party from a TPK if things go to hell, but how often do you see yourself actually casting it in regular play?

Well, since it can be used to give +1s to ability scores, fairly often.

[ericgrau]

It's a nonstacking inherent bonus though, so better to wait until he can get 4 or 5 in a row. And even with level 18 wealth 4-5 wishes are a huge part of anyone's budget that might not be worth it just for a +2 or +3 to some things. So better to wait a level or two. Might be a good 2nd or 3rd spell for that and to be ready for random problems.

[Psyren]

Decent alternatives to Time Stop: SMIX, Foresight, Gate, Prismatic Sphere, Shades and Disjunction. (Note that PF greatly improved that last one.)


Well, since it can be used to give +1s to ability scores, fairly often.

If that's all you want it for you can just buy tomes; slightly more expensive, but don't take up a spell known slot either.

[Jack_Simth]

Title says it all. I'm rolling an 18th level Sorcerer in Pathfinder, and I get to learn a single 9th level spell. The campaign is very combat-heavy. As of now, I'm debating between Wish, Wail of the Banshee and Time Stop. Wish does everything, but has a 25,000 gp material component. Wail of the Banshee does 10*caster level squared damage, placing it as probably the single best damaging spell, ever. And I'm not sure if I could live with myself if I passed up the opportunity to stop time. What do you think, playground.
...

In D&D, I'd recommend Wish as the panic button, even for a Sorcerer. In Pathfinder, however, it's less useful for that. Yes, it's got everything except the magic item creation clause ported over, but there's a caveat:
In D&D, you don't have to plan ahead on Wish; it costs XP, which you always have with you (although you may not have enough loose to cast it for a little while). In Pathfinder, it costs 25k in diamonds, which you have to plan ahead to have.

With Wail of the Banshee, it's... just damage, and there's three categories ways to be immune to it (it's sonic, death, and requires the target be living; I suppose I might as well count spell resistance and it being necromancy, for five...), plus it's fort negates, rather than partial like most of the others of that nature in Pathfinder. I wouldn't really recommend it.

So: Of the three, I'd suggest Time Stop, myself.

[Raven777]

I haven't read the later half of the comments, but if your Sorcerer is the Pathfinder version, it has a Bloodline. This Bloodline will grant it an additional bloodline specific 9th level spell at 19th level, so you might want to check these out to avoid redundancy.

For example, Arcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) grants Wish.

Now, in my humble opinion, a Sorcerer should favor versatility for the spell it chooses, because they are few. And the most versatile and best contenders would be, in my opinion : Time Stop (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/time-stop), Shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange) or Summon Monster IX (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster).

[Psyren]

I haven't read the later half of the comments, but if your Sorcerer is the Pathfinder version, it has a Bloodline. This Bloodline will grant it an additional bloodline specific 9th level spell at 19th level, so you might want to check these out to avoid redundancy.

For example, Arcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) grants Wish.

OP is Infernal, therefore his bloodline 9th is Meteor Swarm.

[Twilightwyrm]

As many of the other people on this topic have suggested, I would echo that Time Stop is probably your best bet. Shapechange is still interesting, but has been considerably downgraded from 3.5 (the change of creature is pretty much aesthetic, along with some buffs, rather than essentially making you a copy of that creature). Wail of the Banshee is nice, but is actually more like 200 damage across multiple creatures, rather than the 400 some version you are familiar with. Wish...has the problems mentioned.
There is another spell that I think deserves special mention: Polar Midnight. It is only a 30 ft. radius, but everything in it is enveloped in darkness, takes 5d6 damage (no save), 1d6 Dex damage (Fort Save), and anything that is still within it at the end of the turn is encased in a Wall of Ice (no save), where they cannot breath, and require True Resurrection, Miracle or Wish to be raised if they die inside it. It does not rival the sheer amount of possibilities a Time Stop or Wish theoretically provide, but synergies well with other battlefield control spells, so I'd most certainly consider it along with, and possibly ahead of, Wail of the Banshee, as your spam-able "offensive" spell.

[Da'Shain]

Versatility is pretty much key for sorcerors ... but those spells have been covered. If Time Stop, SMIX, Shapechange or Wish don't catch your fancy, pick a spell that lets you pretty much win certain encounters.

Wail of the Banshee works well for that, but as was pointed out, it's also, perhaps, a bit TOO specific, and easy to become immune to. Try out Crushing Hand to squeeze squishy foes into submission; try out Mass Icy Prison to branch out of your bloodline just to surprise people with a tomb (fluff it as manipulating fire by drawing all heat out of the target squares); pick Energy Drain and channel Xykon.

Or just try out Echean's Excellent Enclosure (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/echean-s-excellent-enclosure)! Seems to be an immediate "bye bye" button for anything Large or smaller, no save or anything, and I've been looking for an excuse to try it out myself.

[Killer Angel]

I'll echo Time Stop. As a sorcerer, you can spam winning combos a lot of times, without the need to prepare them.

[Felandria]

I also find Overwhelming Presence pretty fun.

[Khatoblepas]

No, you can learn TWO 9th-level spells, assuming you haven't already committed to your 18th-level feat.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana

Judging by the wording on that feat, you could get a 9th level spell at level 1. It only caps the level of the spell you can learn if you choose to learn 2 spells. Otherwise, it just says " Add one spell from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known.". At level 1, Time Stop is on your class' spell list, so you can add it to your list of spells known. Pretty useless outside of fringe uses, but it's a pretty obvious hole.

So if you're willing to sac most of your other feats, you could learn all the 9th level spells.

In all seriousness, though, if you have mostly spells with durations and areas, Time Stop is the way to go. It's even a great panic button.

[icefractal]

I forgot about Prismatic Sphere. That's not only a good defensive spell but also quite powerful offensively, if you have a way to force enemies through it (Reverse Gravity, for instance).

I'm taking a look at the PFSRD now, and here's some that stand out as potentially good, other than those already mentioned:
Gate - In addition to the expensive but incredibly powerful summoning usage, this also adds some excellent utility, and combat usage if you have ways to force movement.

Dominate Monster - Whether this is good depends on the campaign, but in the right setup you could have an army of powerful minions. All I know is that I played a Psion with Mind Control (works the same when augmented enough) and it was so potent I needed to hold back most of the time.

Icy Prison - Not much utility usage, but a Reflex mass save-or-screwed is pretty handy.

Shades - Great for versatility, without the expense of Wish. 80% real is pretty good, even if they do make the save.

Astral Projection - Ok, only take this one if you want to make the GM cry. Largely unchanged from 3E, it still gives you 3+ retries at most things, unlimited usage of your expendable items, and generally breaks everything - for the entire party!

[Psyren]

Astral Projection is indeed nice but I wouldn't take it as a Sorcerer - you're only going to cast it once per day, if that. It would be better as a scroll or even on a stave, or a Wizard could get away with preparing one copy of it and leaving the rest of his 9th slots open for other things without too much fuss.

[mregecko]

I'm just going to echo the utility of Time Stop. It's really quite probably the strongest option available to you.

That said, I would probably take Create Demiplane (Greater) for myself. Because the idea of being able to create my own demiplane and spam it to modify the traits as much as I want is just too awesome to me. And you can use the Timeless or Flowing Time traits to abuse crafting, plane shift to your plane during combat for buffing, etc etc etc...

-- MrE

[Raven777]

I don't know. Demi-plane shenanigans are better left for Wizards who have the spells known to spare. As a Sorcerer, you are better off doing it through scrolls or hired help.

Personally, if Shapechange and SMIX are out, I would vouch for Time Stop or Polar Midnight. Time Sop being the priority. After that, Polar Midnight. It is just flat out better than Wail of the Banshee. Because not only does Wail have the many resistance drawbacks already highlighted, it also risks snuffing out your own allies and is centered on you.

Any spell where you need, as a squishy caster, to be in the middle of the action, is kinda questionable.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you're dead-set on a race that isn't Human (with Racial Heritage: Half-Elf) or Half-Elf, you can ignore the rest.

I support Time Stop because with it, you have time to cast any 9th level sor/wiz spell you please. As a third level spell known take Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge). If you need some obscure 9th level spell in battle, and it's really important, you do the following:

1. Cast Time Stop
2. Cast Paragon Surge, gaining some plusses... and an unrestricted bonus feat.
2a. Have this feat be Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana).
2b. Have Expanded Arcana grant you the spell you need to know.
3. Use extra rounds to summon, or buff, or sip some martinis.
4. Cast or be ready to cast your niche spell when the Time Stop expires.

[Raven777]

Paragon Surge cheese has a hidden effect though. This effect is known as getting punched by the DM irl.