Help building an assassin

[LrdoftheRngs]

So, one of the players in my group wants to try his hand at DMing, and he wants to run an evil campaign. It's a fairly high-powered game, and I am playing the role of the stealthy assassin type. I'm not exactly sure how good the Prestige class Assassin is at being an assassin, but I'd like to use it if possible. Starting level is 6th.

The rest of the party:
Druid focused on healing

Either a Transmuter focused on buffing or a Conjurer focused on battlefield control (Not sure which)

Cleric focused on summoning and bolstering undead (He's part of a prestige class the DM homebrewed)

Some sort of big meatshield type character

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I was thinking a plain rogue/assassin build, but I'm not sure that would be able to keep up with three Full Casters in the party.

[Waker]

While I like the assassin, I think the general consensus from the board is that the class isn't terribly powerful. If your goal is to make a sneaky character capable of dealing a crap load of damage really quickly, you might consider the Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel. A decent approach might be Spellthief/Wizard/Spellwarp Sniper and then follow the class up with something like Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster. Were you to do that, Master Spellthief (also from CS) could extend your staying power by stealing spells from other casters.

[JaronK]

I'm a big fan of Whispergnome Necropolitan Factotum with a one level Mindbender dip so you can take Mindsight, along with Lifesense. The result is a character who always knows where everyone is around him and is nearly impossible to detect if done right. A one or two level dip into Unarmed Swordsage may also be worthwhile. Use Iaijutsu Focus and a Gnomish Quickrazor so you can feel like the guy from Assassin's Creed. And with Minor Creation you can summon all day supplies of Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise to poison your enemies. Remember also that for a Factotum, Ghoul Glyph can be cast as a standard action (because it's a spell like ability), which lets you paralyze one living opponent per day with no save. Mid combat Coup de grace!

Now, you won't be as strong as the full casters, but you can be effective.

JaronK

[LrdoftheRngs]

The Factotum build seems cool, that class totally passed my mind. Sounds great, I think that would work really well. Any idea what feats I should look at? I'm not very familiar with Factotums or stealthy characters. We are allowed to take 2 flaws, so I would have 5 feats if I take both.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellthief 1/ Psion or Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 9. You'll need Practiced Manifester to qualify for Psychic Assassin. Note that Spellthief level allows you to use wands of any spells on the Spellthief class spell list, including Wraithstrike.

Forget about Death Attack, just pick up Mind Cripple and deal 2 Int damage per hit. Go with TWF and get a weapon with a Wand Chamber for a Wand of Wraithstrike. You'll need to use fractional BAB from UA to get a +16 BAB with Psion, but Ardent gets you that without fractional.

Ardent gets 9th level powers in this build, whereas Psion only gets 8th. You'll need to use Substitute Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) for Ardent to get choice powers that aren't available from any mantle. Psion is still probably a better choice due to its power list and Int synergy, but if you can't use fractional BAB and expect to go epic then go with Ardent.

Get a Psicrystal and the powers Vigor and Share Pain. Keep the psicrystal in a compartment on your person so opponents will never have line of sight nor line of effect to attack it directly, and it won't get hit by AoEs. Keep Share Pain continually active on it, so you'll take half damage from all sources. Its Hardness 8 will reduce every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that amount, regardless of the attack's original type. When you manifest Vigor you can share it with the psicyrstal just like any other buff, giving you a significant hp cushion. You can even put a Healing Belt on the psicrystal so it can heal you during combat.

[JaronK]

As mentioned, Mindsight and Lifesense. The former requires telepathy (a one level dip in Mindbender gets you that), and the latter requires not having a con score (hence Necropolitan, which also provides a host of immunities that are quite useful, and lets you dump con). Between the two, all living things glow brightly in your vision only and you automatically detect anything with a mind within 100' (and even know their type and int score).

By the way, you may find this useful. It's about scouting classes in general, not assassins, but it should help: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WvJV2JWq9GcJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D11034+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Other feats to consider include Craft Wonderous Items, Imperious Command, and Darkstalker (the last of which is critical, as it lets you hide from things with blindsense).

Note that as a Whispergnome, the Complete Warrior rules let you trade out racial proficiency in the Gnomish Hooked Hammer for the Gnomish Quickrazor, which works amazingly with Iaijutsu Focus, a skill available to Factotums. That's your version of Sneak Attack... it's harder to trigger because the target must be flat footed, but it works against everything.

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

I'm a big fan of Whispergnome Necropolitan Factotum with a one level Mindbender dip so you can take Mindsight, along with Lifesense.
You'd need DM dispensation for that combination for a couple of reasons:

Despite the ability being called Arcane Dilettante, this ability only grants the Factotum a caster level, not an arcane caster level as required to enter Mindbender.
Mindbender is in Complete Arcane, which has this annoying rule about its prestige classes on page 17:
Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class.

Spells: Able to cast charm person, use charm person as a spell-like ability, or use the charm invocation. There's nothing in the rules about getting any such special ability (like Telepathy) back, so everything falls apart the first time the Factotum can't use Charm Person.

[Unusual Muse]

If third-party stuff is allowed, check out the Assassin's Handbook, published by Green Ronin. It has an assassin base class, as well as a few assassin-themed prestige classes.

[JaronK]

You'd need DM dispensation for that combination for a couple of reasons:
[LIST]
Despite the ability being called Arcane Dilettante, this ability only grants the Factotum a caster level, not an arcane caster level as required to enter Mindbender.

Please check the Complete Arcane rules on PrCs and the Warlock (and by extension, all Sp casting as it qualifies for PrCs), which cover your objection completely. It's quite explicit. Pages 18 and 71.

Furthermore, Factotums always have the ability to cast Charm Person. They may not have it stored right now, but they can always cast it once they're of sufficient level. Or are you trying to suggest that a Wizard who has Charm Person prepared once today and casts it that day is suddenly disqualified from the Mindbender class? That's equally unsupported, of course.

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

Please check the Complete Arcane rules on PrCs and the Warlock (and by extension, all Sp casting as it qualifies for PrCs), which cover your objection completely. It's quite explicit. Pages 18 and 71. This is quite explicit in referring strictly to the Warlock class as meeting qualifications for prestige classes requiring an arcane caster level. Your "by extension" statement is just another house rule.

Or are you trying to suggest that a Wizard who has Charm Person prepared once today and casts it that day is suddenly disqualified from the Mindbender class?
That's exactly what the rule on page 17 of Complete Arcane says. As soon as the character no longer meets the requirements of a CA prestige class, they're stripped of all that PrC's special abilities. You may not like that (and want to institute another house rule changing things), but it's the letter of the RAW.

[JaronK]

This is quite explicit in referring strictly to the Warlock class as meeting qualifications for prestige classes requiring an arcane caster level. Your "by extension" statement is just another house rule.

Read it again. Specifically "In context of a feat or a prerequisite class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as "caster level 5th") measures the character's ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification."

What's that about "referring strictly to the Warlack class" again? Funny how I don't see it there.

And heck, Mindbender requires "arcane caster level 5th" so it's practically what the example was talking about.

And let's be clear, the Factotum ability is called "Arcane Dilettante" and you are explicitly mimicking arcane spells (specifically the Wizard/Sorcerer spells) as spell like abilities. If a Factotum took scribe scroll, and made a scroll, would the resulting spell be arcane or divine by your interpretations? Remember, you can indeed make scrolls with sp abilities... Complete Arcane says so.


That's exactly what the rule on page 17 of Complete Arcane says. As soon as the character no longer meets the requirements of a CA prestige class, they're stripped of all that PrC's special abilities. You may not like that (and want to institute another house rule changing things), but it's the letter of the RAW.

Completely nonsense, of course, and not at all workable. That tells you the interpretation might be a poor one. An equally RAW, yet workable valid interpretation is that the ability to do something (such as ability to cast Charm) means "your character could do this if they wanted, when they wanted" not "your character can do this all the time." Factotums, Wizards, and everyone else with arcane casting and the ability to cast Charm Person can chose to cast the spell when they want by preparing it. This results in an interpretation that's just as valid by RAW, yet also functional, and is thus a superior interpretation.

Is a Factotum "Able to ... use charm person as a spell like ability"? Yes, yes he is. By the way, I'm able to ride a horse, if you ask. Am I on a horse? No. Is there a horse near me? No. But if someone asks, the answer is yes, yes I'm able to ride a horse. Why? Because "able" doesn't mean you can do it right now with what's provided to you at this moment. It means you could do it if you wanted to. Basic English language.

Seriously, the last two debates you and I have gotten into have been utterly ridiculous (last time you thought that Wind Wall cares about the weight of the weapon launching the projectile, not the weight of the projectile itself, despite the fact that all the examples Wind Wall gives are the projectiles themselves). Now you're trying to argue that Wizards disqualify themselves from the Mindbender class any time they haven't prepared Charm Person or when they've cast all their prepared versions of it today, for no apparent reason. Do you seriously believe these things, or are you just trying to be argumentative? I can't tell at this point.

JaronK

[docnessuno]

I have to disagree with the general consensus, the assassin is a very strong PRC overall.

By fufilling very easy entry requirements you get a mini-gish, with full SA advancement, poison use and HiPS. Obviously if you focus on the death attack the PRC doesn't really work (DA is usually just good for killing low levl NPCs), but the spell list is very nice (contrary to the vast majority of mini-caster PRCs the assassin list is expanded in multiple sourcebooks).

Example build:
Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 9 / Unseen seer 1 / Swordsage 3

[Fouredged Sword]

I always like to dip a few levels of psion on my assassin to get energy ray. One PP, can be made with no viable effect with a concentration check, and a touch attack that deals sonic damage.

Great for pinging someone from greater invis with a death attack.

[Curmudgeon]

What's that about "referring strictly to the Warlack class" again? Funny how I don't see it there.
What the Warlock gets is qualification for "arcane spellcaster level x". A Factotum has a spellcaster level, but no arcane spellcaster level.

[JaronK]

What the Warlock gets is qualification for "arcane spellcaster level x". A Factotum has a spellcaster level, but no arcane spellcaster level.

Monster Manual 1, page 315. If it's found on the Wizard/Sorcerer list, spell like abilities default to being like Wiz/Sorc spells (as opposed to divine lists) for anything where that matters. So yes, the Factotum ones are arcane by default.

JaronK

[Averis Vol]

I have to disagree with the general consensus, the assassin is a very strong PRC overall.

By fufilling very easy entry requirements you get a mini-gish, with full SA advancement, poison use and HiPS. Obviously if you focus on the death attack the PRC doesn't really work (DA is usually just good for killing low levl NPCs), but the spell list is very nice (contrary to the vast majority of mini-caster PRCs the assassin list is expanded in multiple sourcebooks).

Example build:
Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 9 / Unseen seer 1 / Swordsage 3

I absolutely agree with this build. Unless you want a more....magical, build, this is perfect. It all comes down to what you expect from an assassin.

[Curmudgeon]

Monster Manual 1, page 315. If it's found on the Wizard/Sorcerer list, spell like abilities default to being like Wiz/Sorc spells (as opposed to divine lists) for anything where that matters. So yes, the Factotum ones are arcane by default.
Here's the actual rule:
A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/ wizard versions. I fail to see how this applies to Factotum characters.

[JaronK]

"Monster" and "Creature" are effectively synonymous. Kobolds are found listed as Monsters, as are Elves, Dwarves, and virtually every player race (except Humans, but nowhere are Humans said to not be Monsters). No definition of monster excludes any Factotum. All Factotums are monsters (and creatures) of one type or another, unless they're dead (at which point they become objects, which is irrelevant).

You may fail to see it, but I'm pretty sure everyone else does.

And please remember that the Monster Manual is the primary source on Spell Like Abilities.

JaronK