Would this be legal?

[Immabozo]

If a wizard, takes one level of sorcerer (to go Ultimate Magus), can the wizard take the Evocation variant and give up both of the familiars he gets as a wizard and as a sorc? So get a +2 caster level to one element and a -2 to other elemental spells?

I'm thinking going like an insanely strong casting wizard, phisically addled by drugs (terran brandy), taking the spellgifted trait, evocation variant (x2?), elemental casting feat, Draconic Power, orange ion stone, Reserve feat of the appropriate element, plus the Ultimate Magus +CL class feature.

At Level 1 human sorcerer with feeble and noncombatant flaws (another two feats!), Spell gifted trait, evocation variant, elemental spell casting, draconic heritage and draconic power for a +4 CL, plus a meta magic feat (should take it later, but I am tired of reseaching this today, haha)

Level 2, 1 level wizard, one level sorcerer. Give up wizard familiar to Evocation variant for +1 CL of the appropriate element (?) +5 CL

Level 3, 2nd level wizard, 1 level Sorc. Reserve Feat, +6 CL

Level 5, Ultimate Magus 1/Wizard 4/Sorc 1 +7 CL

Level 9, Ultimate Magus 4/Wizard 4/Sorc 1 +8 CL

Level 12, Ultimate Magus 7/Wizard 4/Sorc 1 +9 CL

Level 15, Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 4/Sorc 1 +10 CL

Terran Brandy adds +2 CL to that, orange ion stone adds +1, depending on what levels I can afford them, (or start casting extract drug)

[Seer_of_Heart]

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe that you do not get an extra familiar from entering sorcerer. It just advances the existing familiar.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you have already traded out the wizard familiar for something else, though, then you pick up sorcerer at a later level, I think you would get the familiar from sorcerer. Which seems to suggest that you could go for whatever sorcerer ACF you could find. I don't think you could trade the sorcerer's familiar for a wizard ACF, though.

Proof? Nope, none here.

[Immabozo]

I wouldn't see why I couldn't trade away the familiar again, but I see your point.

[nedz]

Your trick doesn't work.

You can utilise the Wizard ACF to exchange your Wizard familiar for the +1 CL, but you would have to use a Sorcerer ACF to exchange the Sorcerer familiar.
AFAIK no similar Sorcerer ACF exists.

ACFs are class related, it's all in the name.
Alternate Class Feature, and Familiars are class features.

[Immabozo]

Your trick doesn't work.

You can utilise the Wizard ACF to exchange your Wizard familiar for the +1 CL, but you would have to use a Sorcerer ACF to exchange the Sorcerer familiar.
AFAIK no similar Sorcerer ACF exists.

ACFs are class related, it's all in the name.
Alternate Class Feature, and Familiars are class features.

Very true, thank you.

What is AFAIK?

[Jeraa]

What is AFAIK?

As Far As I Know

[LTwerewolf]

as far as i know

[Immabozo]

Thanks guys

[Twilightwyrm]

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe that you do not get an extra familiar from entering sorcerer. It just advances the existing familiar.

Actually, you would, since you are getting the familiar from two different sources. Works the same if you pick up the Obtain Familiar feat on a normal sorcerer or wizard. (IIRC)

[mattie_p]

Actually, you would, since you are getting the familiar from two different sources. Works the same if you pick up the Obtain Familiar feat on a normal sorcerer or wizard. (IIRC)

You get one familiar. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm):


In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and sorcerers have the same ability. A sorcerer/wizard stacks his sorcerer and wizard levels to determine the familiar’s natural armor, Intelligence score, and special abilities.

Obtain familiar is a little more obscure, in that it doesn't preclude a wizard or sorcerer with a familiar from selecting the feat, but it does have the same wording that the levels stack. It also has the wording "as a wizard or sorcerer," and the class feature allows you to select a familiar (singular).

[Immabozo]

But if you give up your familiar to the ACF, there is no reason you wouldn't gain a second, right?

[nedz]

But if you give up your familiar to the ACF, there is no reason you wouldn't gain a second, right?

Of course.
There is even a RAW argument that the levels still stack, but I think that's a tad bogus since the second clause of the first sentence in mattie_p's SRD quote would be false.

[Immabozo]

either way, if I plan to PrC into Ultimate Magus, those levels do not improve a familiar and the familiar will quickly fall behind. Personally, as a DM, I would allow it, seeing as the distinct lack of ACF for sorcerers (only 1 or 2 crappy ones) and it makes sense, at least to me, for a sorcerer, using the same magic, to be able give up the familiar, same as Wizard for the ACFs available to a Wizard (But not the ones requiring giving up the Wizard bonus feats or specialist bonus spells, as a sorcerer gets neither).

[nedz]

either way, if I plan to PrC into Ultimate Magus, those levels do not improve a familiar and the familiar will quickly fall behind. Personally, as a DM, I would allow it, seeing as the distinct lack of ACF for sorcerers (only 1 or 2 crappy ones) and it makes sense, at least to me, for a sorcerer, using the same magic, to be able give up the familiar, same as Wizard for the ACFs available to a Wizard (But not the ones requiring giving up the Wizard bonus feats or specialist bonus spells, as a sorcerer gets neither).

Actually dumping the familiar is one of the better Sorcerer ACFs

Metamagic Specialist (PHB 2, p 61): lose familiar. Gain the ability to apply metamagic rapidly 3 + Int bonus times per day.

[Immabozo]

wow, I totally missed that one. Is it is Unearthed Arcana?

[Darth Stabber]

And as far as sorcerer acfs, I think there was one that allowed you to trade familiar for a feat, but that might have been a flaw. As a GM I would allow it as an acf if it wasn't one, but the rapid metamagic is probably a better option if your gm is enforcing the casting time increase (I don't). It seems a bit odd to key it to int.

[The Random NPC]

I can't remember if it was a specific PrC/ACF or a general rule, but I remember reading a rule that if you give up a familiar you don't get another one even if you would get one from multiclassing into another familiar granting class.

[TheifofZ]

First: metamagic specialist is in the Players Handbook II

Second: As mentioned above; You only get the one Familiar from Wizard/Sorcerer levels.
Since Most ACFs that you gain from trading in your familiar advance in place of the familiar, depending on how your DM views it, the ACF for wizard might stack with the familiar granting levels of sorcerer too. RAW is alittle gray on that area, since the original rules for Familiars didn't include ACFs, but I'm pretty sure it would work out like that.

[Socratov]

Well, I'm AFB atm so I can only grab at the raw presented here and from memory.

So, breaking it all down,
first: getting an ACf means giving up a class feature, you gain the benenfit as you trade it in at the level you get it.
Second - and this is important -: you are considered not having that classfeature.
thrid: if you don't have a certain classfeature, your levels of that class don't count. It's as if the class feature was written out of the class in favor of another classfeature (making WotC lazy in not writing up a new progression, only saying "exchange this for that").
fourth: So reasonign from the stuff above, at the moment you gain your sorc familliar, you posses no familiar at that moment, or more precise, you don't have levels in a class that progresses familiars at that moment and thus are entitled to gain a familiar as a benefit of being a sorceror. and nothign prevents you to trade it away for yet another classfeature. Note, since your wizard levels don't progress a familiar (and thus are not considered vanilla wizard levels), one coudl realistically rule that the wizard levels don't advance your familiar since the situation described in the stacking of sorc and wizard levels adresses the fact of 2 familiar advancing classes, aka sorc and wizard, advancing the same classfeature seperately. but with one of the classes not advancing the classfeature anymore there is no conflict and thus is the sidebar on familiars nullified. oh and you could within reason assume that if a sorceror classfeature applies to a certain mechanic that it won't benefit the wizard, and vice versa :smallyuk: (so no increase in cl for the sorcside, and no on the fly metamagic for the wizardside :smallbiggrin:)

[Immabozo]

you bring up a VERY solid argument. I wholeheartedly agree

[Socratov]

you bring up a VERY solid argument. I wholeheartedly agree

why thank you. the funny thing is, you can spend a feat to add the classfeature back onto the list, making it available to all classes (like when you take it with a arcane casting class that has no familliar) :smallyuk: dirty trick, but valid if I'm not mistaken...

[Immabozo]

why thank you. the funny thing is, you can spend a feat to add the classfeature back onto the list, making it available to all classes (like when you take it with a arcane casting class that has no familliar) :smallyuk: dirty trick, but valid if I'm not mistaken...

that is a nasty trick, haha, but very true.

[Socratov]

that is a nasty trick, haha, but very true.

pish posh, I've seen dirtier tricks going round these boards :smallamused:

And to be honest, Wizards and Sorcerers are broken anyway :smallbiggrin: What's 1 more thing to break the game with as a caster anyway? *shrugs*

[Immabozo]

pish posh, I've seen dirtier tricks going round these boards :smallamused:

And to be honest, Wizards and Sorcerers are broken anyway :smallbiggrin: What's 1 more thing to break the game with as a caster anyway? *shrugs*

You are a very evil genius

[Darth Stabber]

Familiar is only as good as what you can trade it for. You'll almost never see obtain familiar come up in a PO build, and rarely does any one who gets it for free keep it if they are optimizing to any extent. Without some serious investment they are just massive chunks of XP just waiting to get ripped off your sheet if you use them, and just fluff if you don't.

The exception of course is dread necromancer, since they have 3 really good choices and one crappy one(imp, quasit, and ghostly visage, the vargoille kinda sucks) and none of it's options are available to sor/wiz without improved familiar (and the visage and vargoille aren't available to anyone else at all). I guess it makes sense, as DN is the pokemon master class, so they should reasonably have a good familiar, plus the imp and quasit make for good rp potential (since they are there to tempt your character into being even more aweful).

[Immabozo]

I was wondering if I was missing something, failing to see their use. In Baldur's Gate Shadows of Amn video game, my wizards had one and always carried it in their packs and never let it out. I think it was 2 con for one pack slot? I liked the sound of it!

[Darth Stabber]

I was wondering if I was missing something, failing to see their use. In Baldur's Gate Shadows of Amn video game, my wizards had one and always carried it in their packs and never let it out. I think it was 2 con for one pack slot? I liked the sound of it!

1) video games tend have different usefulness equations
2) Baldurs Gate was 2e.

[Acanous]

Certain builds use familiars, like when you go Arcane Heirophant for Familiar Companion.

Or if you take Exalted familiar for that mouse thing that casts Magic Missiles at will and has hide in plain sight.

[Darth Stabber]

Certain builds use familiars, like when you go Arcane Heirophant for Familiar Companion.

Or if you take Exalted familiar for that mouse thing that casts Magic Missiles at will and has hide in plain sight.

Musteaval Guardinal, which, given that the name seems to be derived from mustelid, it is likely a farret, weasel, or something along those lines. Probably a honey badger.

[Socratov]

You are a very evil genius

would you mind if I store this in my extended quote section? As a forum CV reference ofcourse :smallamused:

[Immabozo]

would you mind if I store this in my extended quote section? As a forum CV reference ofcourse :smallamused:

haha, I would be honored