Cheap Spell Scribing

[koboldish]

With help from some other playgrounders, I have decided to play a Beguiler with Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. I only found one problem, I have to buy and write all of my spells into my spellbook. That's 125 gp for a first level spell, and the prices keep going up! Are there any cost effective ways of getting around this? Thanks.

[Grinner]

There's the Geometer prestige class, though that carries a pretty steep skill tax.

I think there's also a couple of magic items that can do that, though their names escape me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, copying spells into your spellbook can get expensive. Keep in mind that you don't have to buy scrolls, just find a friendly wizard/organization to copy the spell from as it costs them nothing to let you have a look:
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings)

You still have to pay 100 gp per page, but there are ways to reduce the number of pages a spell takes. A Blessed Book (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook) is the easiest way to accomplish this. Another method is to copy a 1st level spell onto each page (it can be the same 1st level spell), and cast Secret Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm) to turn that into a copy of a higher-level spell, still occupying only a single page.

It gets better. You can go to the friendly wizard/organization, spend eight hours studying a spell, make the Spellcraft check to learn it, but don't copy it into your book. Act like you weren't able to understand it, making the appropriate Bluff checks (Beguilers even get Glibness). Blame it on the poor quality of the copy you were given, and refuse to pay their fee. After you've left cast Secret Page to put that new spell into your book. Keep going back every day, and make them think your character is a moron who doesn't even know how to do magic beyond the 0-level spells you get from Magical Training. Fill up your book for 100 gp per spell.

[thriceborn]

You still have to pay 100 gp per page, but there are ways to reduce the number of pages a spell takes. A Blessed Book (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook) is the easiest way to accomplish this. Another method is to copy a 1st level spell onto each page (it can be the same 1st level spell), and cast Secret Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm) to turn that into a copy of a higher-level spell, still occupying only a single page.

It gets better. You can go to the friendly wizard/organization, spend eight hours studying a spell, make the Spellcraft check to learn it, but don't copy it into your book. Act like you weren't able to understand it, making the appropriate Bluff checks (Beguilers even get Glibness). Blame it on the poor quality of the copy you were given, and refuse to pay their fee. After you've left cast Secret Page to put that new spell into your book. Keep going back every day, and make them think your character is a moron who doesn't even know how to do magic beyond the 0-level spells you get from Magical Training. Fill up your book for 100 gp per spell.

I don't think it works that way. Can you prove it works that way, because that seems extremely odd.

[Archmage1]

...
if by beguiler, you mean the class in PHBII, you automatically know all your spells for each level.
If you meant another class, ignore me.

[Story]

You can reduce scribing costs to 12.5gp per page by using Boccob's Blessed Book or an Auran Spellshard (Eberron). You can scribe each spell on a single page with Geometer 2.

As for copying fees, it's 25gp a scroll for 1st level spells and 15gp + 50gp per level for spellbooks of higher level scrolls. A flat 50gp per spell if you can find a Geometer to copy from. You can bypass the scribing costs entirely by 'mastering' these books instead of copying them into your own, but then you have to lug a ton of 3lb books around.

* Note, this is under the reasonable assumption that Wizards scribe each spell into a fresh spellbook for copying purposes instead of letting people copy directly out of their precious spellbooks. This method matches up nicely with the stated 50gp/level cost.

That's as good as you're going to get barring dubious Secret Page tricks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think it works that way. Can you prove it works that way, because that seems extremely odd.

"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."

It says you can change a page of text containing one spell into a different spell. Granted the character would have to know the spell he wants to change it into, hence studying a spell and making the Spellcraft check to learn it prior to casting that. A Dispel Magic on your spellbook would change all those modified pages back to what they were before, assuming it's an area dispel and has line of effect to each individual page. Also note that Secret Page is the only spell involved in creating a Blessed Book.

[Story]

Technically, you don't "know" the spell until you've scribed it, unless you want to spend over a week mastering someone else's spellbook.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Technically, you don't "know" the spell until you've scribed it, unless you want to spend over a week mastering someone else's spellbook.

I hope you have a rules reference for that. From what I see in this section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings), making that Spellcraft check means you've learned the spell. You can't prepare that spell unless you've scribed it, but you don't need to be able to prepare a spell to put it on a page via Secret Page.

[TuggyNE]

"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."

Hmm. Problem with this is it appears you have to scribe the actual spell first, and then convert it to show something else. So it seems you have it backwards.

[Agent 451]

You can bypass the scribing costs entirely by 'mastering' these books instead of copying them into your own, but then you have to lug a ton of 3lb books around.


Out of curiosity, where does it say this?

[thriceborn]

"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."

It says you can change a page of text containing one spell into a different spell. Granted the character would have to know the spell he wants to change it into, hence studying a spell and making the Spellcraft check to learn it prior to casting that. A Dispel Magic on your spellbook would change all those modified pages back to what they were before, assuming it's an area dispel and has line of effect to each individual page. Also note that Secret Page is the only spell involved in creating a Blessed Book.

I would think of that more as being a spell of being an equal level, not using 7 level 1s or level 0s to make a level 7 spell.

[Story]

Mastering spellbook rules is in Magic of Fearun. I think it's also in Complete Mage, but I don't remember for sure. Anyway, IIRC it takes a week plus a day per spell and uses a Spellcraft check. If successful, you understand the book so well, it's as if you wrote it yourself.

As far as the thing about trading seperate spellbooks containing single spells, it's not written anywhere. It's just the most logical procedure for paranoid Wizards to exchange spells. I actually got the idea from another poster here.

[Wookie-ranger]

Technically, you don't "know" the spell until you've scribed it, unless you want to spend over a week mastering someone else's spellbook.

Actually you do.
Well, as long as you are a Beguiler, Dread Necromancer or War Mage. They specifically "know" all spells of a level that they can cast.
Normally that does not matter much, but when combined with... say, Rainbow Servant it gets really funny.

[Story]

I was referring to Wizards. Beguilers don't get a spellbook and don't scribe spells anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."


Secret Page shenanigans are really sketchy, since it's highly ambiguous and would bypass a major limitation Wizards are supposed to have. It should work by RAI, but is unbalanced and unclear by RAW. A very strange combination for 3.5 rules.

It says it can show another spell, but it doesn't say you can prepare from it. And even if that did work, it says you can use it to change one spell into another (which requires roughly the same GP expenditure and time), not a blank space into a spell.

[Story]

In an ambiguous situation where one interpretation is clearly unbalanced, it's usually best to go for the nonbroken interpretation. For the same reason, I wouldn't allow full progression Rainbow Servant, especially on full list casters like Beguiler or Warmage.

[Wookie-ranger]

Secret Page shenanigans are really sketchy, since it's highly ambiguous and would bypass a major limitation Wizards are supposed to have. It should work by RAI, but is unbalanced and unclear by RAW. A very strange combination for 3.5 rules.

It says it can show another spell, but it doesn't say you can prepare from it. And even if that did work, it says you can use it to change one spell into another (which requires roughly the same GP expenditure and time), not a blank space into a spell.

Really?
Do we have to go the route of "The spell does not say explicitly [x] therefore it cannot do it"?
By the same logic a resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) spell does not make you make you breathe, bc it does not say do... and it does not make your heart beat either..... or makes your brain work the same way as before..... or returns your soul to your body....
You see where this is going.

IMHO, This belongs in the dysfunctional rules thread.
Lets look as RAW:

The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.
Well.... there is not much interpretation needed. By RAW you can change a Cantrip to into a 9level spell; BUT I don't think there that there are many DMs out there that would let this fly.
So by RAW this works! but by ROI it does not. Not the other way around.

As related to the topic:
I thing that the Blessed Book is the best (if not the cheapest/cheesiest) option.

If that is a little to steep in price, ask your DM if you are allowed to by a spellbook from a mage and get trained in reading the spells. I did that with a Dread Necromancer who was in a similar situation.

edit: sort of Ninjaed out of nowhere! :smallannoyed:

[Story]

You don't have to ask the DM to houserule something. There are already explicit rules for mastering a spellbook.

[koboldish]

Sorry for not getting back to everyone earlier. I think the rules for mastering someone elses spellbook are going to be the most useful here. I know that, as a Beguiler, I know all of my spells each level. Magical Training gives me a spellbook, and Versatile Spellcaster gives me the ability to cast them. Thanks everyone for the help. Now, where can I get a bunch of spellbooks to master? As a Beguiler, I could steal them, right?:smallbiggrin:

[Story]

I don't think this works.

Magical Training gives you a spellbook but it doesn't give you the ability to scribe spells. It's not clear whether you are able to use other spellbooks, but since it doesn't add them to your class spell list, you can't cast them out of Beguiler slots anyway. (Well RAW, Versatile Spellcaster might work, but it's definitely against RAI)

[Stegyre]

Magical Training (the wizard variant) does get you a spell book, and Versatile Spellcaster does, by RAW, allow you to combine any two same-level spell slots to cast a spell you "know" of a higher level, apparently regardless of how you came by your knowledge.

Before this actually works, though, someone needs to identify the RAW saying that a Beguiler "knows" the spells in his spell book. Beyond the fluff description ("Every crafter and artisan, it seems, knows a minor spell or two."), Magical Training does not get you there. Anything about Wizards "knowing" the spells in their spell book likewise doesn't get you there: You're not a wizard.

It's creative, but there's a link missing. BF may have that missing link, but I don't think I've seen it yet.
FWIW, I agree with BF's interpretation of Secret Page: by RAW, this appears to double the capacity of any spell book. You're just vulnerable to losing half of your spells to a Dispel Magic, a significant risk.

[nedz]

Magical Training (the wizard variant) does get you a spell book, and Versatile Spellcaster does, by RAW, allow you to combine any two same-level spell slots to cast a spell you "know" of a higher level, apparently regardless of how you came by your knowledge.

Before this actually works, though, someone needs to identify the RAW saying that a Beguiler "knows" the spells in his spell book. Beyond the fluff description ("Every crafter and artisan, it seems, knows a minor spell or two."), Magical Training does not get you there. Anything about Wizards "knowing" the spells in their spell book likewise doesn't get you there: You're not a wizard.

It's creative, but there's a link missing. BF may have that missing link, but I don't think I've seen it yet.
I suspect that it's the old Versatile Spellcaster chaining trick ?
If so: my advice to the OP is to wear a hard hat to the game you try to pull this one off in. You do own a hard-hard, right ?

FWIW, I agree with BF's interpretation of Secret Page: by RAW, this appears to double the capacity of any spell book. You're just vulnerable to losing half of your spells to a Dispel Magic, a significant risk.
It's a cute trick, but a false economy — except for a travelling spellbook maybe ?

[Stegyre]

I suspect that it's the old Versatile Spellcaster chaining trick ?
Not quite. (At least, not as I understand the VS chaining trick.) In this case, what the OP is trying to do is (a) be a Beguiler, and (b) have a spellbook full of wizard spells, which he can cast using Beguiler spell slots, on the theory that, if the spell is in his spell book, he "knows" the spell.

It's a cute trick, but a false economy — except for a travelling spellbook maybe ?
Like I said, I think it works. It doubles your spell book capacity (at a significant risk to half your spell book) and may or may not halve your scribing costs. (I'd say that is a DM call.) If I had a spell book character, I would probably do it.