Duskblade spelllist, too restricted?

[barna10]

After contemplating the Duskblade spell list for the last few weeks I've become very disheartened by how sparse it is. Do you think it would be unbalancing to add spells to it or to give the class an advanced learning feature?

Spells I'm thinking of adding are more touch spells, Mount, Phantom Steed, Shield, Swift Haste, Haste, and possibly more.

[andromax]

It'd probably depend on the power level of the game. Wouldn't be much of an issue at all if you had a couple optimized wizards already, but if the rest of your party consisted of a monk, rogue and sorc then it's probably not a good idea.

You can always take Extra Spell

[Flickerdart]

The problem with the list is that there are too few spells the Duskblade can actually channel. It could stand getting a few more of those (say, 2 of each level) without making it too strong.

[silverwolfer]

The job of the duskblade is two fold, buff himself, and make things go boom, that is about it. If you want to make it equal, let it use bard or wizard spells from a wand without a UMD check, otherwise leave it be :)

[Starbuck_II]

After contemplating the Duskblade spell list for the last few weeks I've become very disheartened by how sparse it is. Do you think it would be unbalancing to add spells to it or to give the class an advanced learning feature?

Spells I'm thinking of adding are more touch spells, Mount, Phantom Steed, Shield, Swift Haste, Haste, and possibly more.

A level in Sand Shaper Prc adds multiple spells when taking 1st level in it.

[Metahuman1]

If most of the characters in the group are well optimiezed T-4's, T-3's, T-2's, and T-1's, then no.


Personally, I'd give them some more touch spells to channel, some more buffs, some more spells per day (Remembering that Arcane strike and channeled spells are a HUGH part of there damage and buffs are highly important too it as well.), and maybe the ability to extend a spell for free a certain number of times a day, possibly while combining it with a few more uses of that freebee quicken they get.

A few energy substitution bonus feats would be good too, very up there damage a bit.

[Eonir]

I don't think so. Their role in combat is to hit things really hard. They are already perfectly adequate at that and just versatile enough outside of that role to be T3.

It would be nice when playing a Duskblade to have more spells at your disposal, but you don't. So alas.

[Twilightwyrm]

I don't think so. Their role in combat is to hit things really hard. They are already perfectly adequate at that and just versatile enough outside of that role to be T3.

It would be nice when playing a Duskblade to have more spells at your disposal, but you don't. So alas.

I suppose, but isn't that pretty much the same as the Psychic Warrior's role (Making things go boom albeit slightly less so)? And while it isn't on the same scale as even the Assassin, the Psychic Warrior got plenty of expansions to their powers list via third party support. So why not do Duskblades the same favor? It's not their fault they came out after the Spell Compendium.

[Philistine]

The Duskblade isn't really meant to be a utility caster; keeping that in mind, the class spell list is mostly okay. If it contained a few more spells suitable for use with the class's signature ability, it would be just fine.

[barna10]

I agree that the spell list is almost ok, but some of it makes scratch my head. As others have mentioned the class's signature ability is to cast touch spells through their weapon and they get very few spells that compliment this.

Also, there are may gaps that seem to have been missed.

For instance, the class gets a Bigby spell at each level, but not third. Bigby's Disrupting Hand would be a GREAT spell for a gish, but why isn't it on the list?

Then, the class gets an electricity/lighting spell at each spell level (at least each level where one is available), but then doesn't get lightning bolt. Why get Chain Lightning but not Lightning Bolt?

Phantasmal Killer, seriously?

And why no spells like Shield or Haste? Why, off all the spells, is Spider Climb increased in level to level 2?

Seriously, can anyone see reasoning behind these choices? Any insight would be appreciated.

[Metahuman1]

Why doesn't a gish have Enlarge person? Or the Heart of X series as useful as they are? Or a way to make normal attacks touch attacks?

Why are the only damage types you can channel electricity and negative energy? Your screwed fighting zombies.

[barna10]

I saw a suggestion elsewhere to change from using the list. Instead the Duskblade gets to choose from the Wiz/Sor list but only from Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation. Further, I would limit selections to casting times of 1 round or less (1 round instead of only 1 standard action because I like the idea of the class getting Mount).

This eliminates the strange (at least to me) inclusion of Enchantments and still stays pretty loyal to the flavor of the class.

Opinions?

[barna10]

Why doesn't a gish have Enlarge person? Or the Heart of X series as useful as they are? Or a way to make normal attacks touch attacks?

Why are the only damage types you can channel electricity and negative energy? Your screwed fighting zombies.

Exactly. I don't think a lot of thought went into the spell list at all.

[Draz74]

Being able to pick a different spell here or there wouldn't hurt anything. Maybe an Eclectic Learning class feature every 5 levels or so? But I wouldn't go adding a bunch of spells to the always-available Spell List if you want to keep the class Tier 3. (Or, at least, not utility/buff spells. More direct-damage spells are probably fine.)


Phantasmal Killer, seriously?
Eh ... doesn't seem essential, but doesn't seem out-of-place, either. Besides, it's pretty weak.


And why no spells like Shield or Haste?
Shield is a strange omission, but Haste -- as a strong full-party buff -- would definitely be a change in the class's paradigm.


Why, off all the spells, is Spider Climb increased in level to level 2?
Spider Climb is generally Level 2 ... not sure what's got you puzzled here.


Or the Heart of X series as useful as they are?
Because they hadn't been published when PHB2 came out? :smalltongue:


Or a way to make normal attacks touch attacks?
Well, that wasn't as big of a thing back in PHB2's time either. Besides, they can do Deep Impact or Heartseeking Amulet as easily as the next melee class.


Why are the only damage types you can channel electricity and negative energy? You're screwed fighting zombies.
What's wrong with hitting zombies with electrical damage?


I saw a suggestion elsewhere to change from using the list. Instead the Duskblade gets to choose from the Wiz/Sor list but only from Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation. Further, I would limit selections to casting times of 1 round or less (1 round instead of only 1 standard action because I like the idea of the class getting Mount).

This eliminates the strange (at least to me) inclusion of Enchantments and still stays pretty loyal to the flavor of the class.

Opinions?

Hmmm, seems fine off the top of my head. Although ... what Transmutation spells are iconic to the class? I might leave off the Transmutation school ... gets rid of all the Polymorph cheese available. (Hmmm, and Conjuration (Calling) should probably be off-limits too.)

Oh, and Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter should be available to channel. :smallamused: Which means some Enchantment should be included.

[silverwolfer]

What's wrong with hitting zombies with electrical damage?


[/QUOTE]

you might start their heart again, giving a resurrect spell in the middle of a rotting flesh body.

[barna10]

Being able to pick a different spell here or there wouldn't hurt anything. Maybe an Eclectic Learning class feature every 5 levels or so? But I wouldn't go adding a bunch of spells to the always-available Spell List if you want to keep the class Tier 3. (Or, at least, not utility/buff spells. More direct-damage spells are probably fine.)

Not sure what you mean by "always available". The Duskblade only gets to choose 1 spell per level.


Shield is a strange omission, but Haste -- as a strong full-party buff -- would definitely be a change in the class's paradigm.

I agree about not wanting to get into full-party buffing, but there are a few spells that affect the whole party already on the list like Regroup which hints at the class being a field commander type.



Spider Climb is generally Level 2 ... not sure what's got you puzzled here.

shows how old-school I am. I guess I'm still playing AD&D here....




Hmmm, seems fine off the top of my head. Although ... what Transmutation spells are iconic to the class? I might leave off the Transmutation school ... gets rid of all the Polymorph cheese available. (Hmmm, and Conjuration (Calling) should probably be off-limits too.)

Oh, and Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter should be available to channel. :smallamused: Which means some Enchantment should be included.

The current list contains most of the 2nd level buff spells (Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, etc), Halt, Magic/Greater Magic Weapon, Crown of Protection/might, Keen Edge, and many more Transmutations.

I checked it over and the five schools of Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation are all fairly included in the current list. Enchantment was there as well (Hold Monster but no Hold Person?), but just doesn't seem to fit IMO.

Also, Tasha's Hideous Laughter can't be channeled. It's not a touch spell.

[LTwerewolf]

Pretty sure by always available they mean spontaneous caster vs vancian.

[barna10]

Pretty sure by always available they mean spontaneous caster vs vancian.

In that case, I don't think increasing the versatility of the spell list would change the Duskblade's tier rating since any utility spells he/she would gain access to would mean that's one less combat spell in his/her repetoire. Also, much like the monk, the Duskblade would gain the spells much later than the equivalent full caster.

If anything, diversifying the spell selection might actually lower the tier rating as the Duskblade becomes less effective at it's specialty in favor of diversification.

[barna10]

I think I'm just going to allow expanding the spell list through research (as per the DMG) and call it a day. The DMG states "A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell." I see no reason a Duskblade couldn't research Haste. Also, using the research rules means reducing funds. In other words, the Duskblade can increase his range at the detriment of his WBL.

Thanks all.

[silverwolfer]

In that case, I don't think increasing the versatility of the spell list would change the Duskblade's tier rating since any utility spells he/she would gain access to would mean that's one less combat spell in his/her repetoire.

Many think that the Duskblade already has to many spells per day to cast already, and many of the spells overlap anyways , so if you take these two factors into consideration, adding utility spells would go a long way.

[Tvtyrant]

The nice thing about increasing the spell list is that you can then make up the number of spells known with items.

[barna10]

Many think that the Duskblade already has to many spells per day to cast already, and many of the spells overlap anyways , so if you take these two factors into consideration, adding utility spells would go a long way.

They may get more spells per day of certain levels, but they don't get more spells per day than an equivalent full spontaneous caster (20th lvl Sorcerer gets 60 spells per day + bonus spells over 9 levels, 20th level Duskblade gets 50 spells per day + bonus spells over 5 levels) Also, less higher level spell slots means less fuel for metamagic.


The nice thing about increasing the spell list is that you can then make up the number of spells known with items.

True, but this means using WBL on wands of Jump instead of better weapons and armor.

[Tvtyrant]

True, but this means using WBL on wands of Jump instead of better weapons and armor.

A wand of Mirror Image is worth all of the armor in the world. Or even Displacement.

[barna10]

Mirror Image is great until you get Blindsense, Blindsight, or True Sight.

[silverwolfer]

Sorc is also not a full bab, or gets to wear armor , or smack someone with a sword while channeling vampiric touch.


Stop comparing Dusk to Wizards and Sorcs, and compare it against paliden and beguiler, and the package it gives when compared to the old fighter/wizard/suel anarmarch/abjuract champion. when you have to talk to DM's that limit sources and look at you funny when you mix classes and prc's.

[rot42]

You might consider Swift Haste from the Spell Compendium as a research target. It is Ranger-only, but the two classes both fall under the general rubrik of "stabby character with a bit of stab-enhancing magic".

[Deepbluediver]

I've always thought that the Duskblade and the Hexblade shared very similar concepts: "dark"-magic using gishes. Are there any good spells you can swap between them?

[nedz]

I looked at dipping one, on a Scout, to get into Unseen Seer.
Can't be done (well not sensibly) — not enough divination spells.

Duskblade is a good Tier 3 class, but it sounds like you should be playing something else. There are other Gish builds.

[barna10]

I've always thought that the Duskblade and the Hexblade shared very similar concepts: "dark"-magic using gishes. Are there any good spells you can swap between them?

That would be a good idea! I do like Hound of Doom...

[barna10]

π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40'

Wouldn't pi = 1.6?

[Talionis]

Sorc is also not a full bab, or gets to wear armor , or smack someone with a sword while channeling vampiric touch.


Stop comparing Dusk to Wizards and Sorcs, and compare it against paliden and beguiler, and the package it gives when compared to the old fighter/wizard/suel anarmarch/abjuract champion. when you have to talk to DM's that limit sources and look at you funny when you mix classes and prc's.

I have to agree. The list was limited on purpose, it's already better than Paladin and Hexblade. Wizards put a huge value on Full BAB. Maybe it should not have, but they did.

I agree had the Duskblade come out earlier, Wizards might have added more chooses to the list, but I doubt they would have added many and I highly doubt good spells that do different things than they currently do.

In so many ways Duskblades are so lucky, compared to a Fighter, at least they get spells to cast.

Haste should NOT be on their list. It's not the type of spell that would be on their list. They would love to get it, but it's outside the scope and a popular enough spell that it's not an omission that Haste isn't on their list. Haste is on most casters lists, so the Duskblades party still should have someone capable of casting Haste.

Now that said, if it works for your game, go for it. If its a high optimization game, maybe Duskblade needs more help.

I'm also fond of allowing Extra Spell feat and or the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat from the DMG2, allowing a spell not on their list to be added to their list with DM permission and possibly raising the spell slot necessary to cast by one level depending on how good a spell it is. I find this allows players to make things work at a pretty high cost of a feat while still allowing a DM some thought as to whether it will break game balance between PCs.

[nedz]

Wouldn't pi = 1.6?

Actually it's worse than that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14148691&postcount=1052).

[barna10]

I have to agree. The list was limited on purpose, it's already better than Paladin and Hexblade. Wizards put a huge value on Full BAB. Maybe it should not have, but they did.

I agree had the Duskblade come out earlier, Wizards might have added more chooses to the list, but I doubt they would have added many and I highly doubt good spells that do different things than they currently do.

In so many ways Duskblades are so lucky, compared to a Fighter, at least they get spells to cast.

Haste should NOT be on their list. It's not the type of spell that would be on their list. They would love to get it, but it's outside the scope and a popular enough spell that it's not an omission that Haste isn't on their list. Haste is on most casters lists, so the Duskblades party still should have someone capable of casting Haste.

Now that said, if it works for your game, go for it. If its a high optimization game, maybe Duskblade needs more help.

I'm also fond of allowing Extra Spell feat and or the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat from the DMG2, allowing a spell not on their list to be added to their list with DM permission and possibly raising the spell slot necessary to cast by one level depending on how good a spell it is. I find this allows players to make things work at a pretty high cost of a feat while still allowing a DM some thought as to whether it will break game balance between PCs.

I looked at all of these options, but then remembered about Spell Research from DMG. ANY spellcaster is allowed to research spells, even completely new ones. I'll probably let the Duskblade research Haste, but will probably make it a personal spell instead of a group buff.

[Talionis]

I looked at all of these options, but then remembered about Spell Research from DMG. ANY spellcaster is allowed to research spells, even completely new ones. I'll probably let the Duskblade research Haste, but will probably make it a personal spell instead of a group buff.

I am ok with that, making it only personal is reducing its effect which is a lot like increasing the level of the spell.

[barna10]

I am ok with that, making it only personal is reducing its effect which is a lot like increasing the level of the spell.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Snowbluff]

Actually it's worse than that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14148691&postcount=1052).

You know, I often wonder why WotC material seems so... off. Apparently, no one knew geometry. :smallsigh:

Thanks for this. I think.

[nedz]

I am ok with that, making it only personal is reducing its effect which is a lot like increasing the level of the spell.

Well there's Haste, Swift from the SpC — though that's Ranger 2.
There is a good argument for considering adding in a few spells from the SpC, though there are arguments against.

If you gave Duskblade Haste then this would open up a nice PrC — Swiftblade I think its called.

[Bloodgruve]

Depending on what your DM says you could look at 1 level of Wizard or Archivist and take Versatile Spellcaster. Throw spells in your spellbook and cast them through Versatile Spellcaster. You technically 'know' a spell if you scribe it in your own book which is a simple Spellcraft check. This however is cheezy and threatens DM retribution :P Also, you could access lvl 6 spells max but that's not bad.

Other ways to get more spells are Arcane Disciple feat and Dragon Mag Bloodline feats. Sandshaper is nice and Extra Spell is good for that 1 spell ya need. Drake Helm item from Eberron (Explorers Handbook or similar) lets you load up spells that you can access also but they're not cheap.

GL
Blood~

[DEMON]

From my experience, you won´t find much empathy from the majority of people around here when trying to add to a class´ spell list... :smallyuk:

IMO it all boils down to the power level of the campaign and the number of splats on the table. The thing is, most of the non-core classes are only drawing their spells from the core books + whatever splat spawned them with little to no support outside these books (which is also the case with Duskblade).

As a DM, I´d be willing to add to the Duskblade´s spell list (given there are enough splatbooks allowed to make this viable), but the additions should be done within reason... some touch spells, some self buffs and that´s it. And on a case by case basis, obviously, to veto anything clearly broken.

Duskblades have to select their spells at the rate of 1 per level, so it really is always a trade off, for each of the new spells learned they have to forgo one of the original ones (minus the wands and scrolls, of course).

[barna10]

Duskblades have to select their spells at the rate of 1 per level, so it really is always a trade off, for each of the new spells learned they have to forgo one of the original ones (minus the wands and scrolls, of course).

Granted, expanding the spell list gives access to more magic items, but the character could just take a feat to add UMD as a class skill and then spell list wouldn't be an issue for magic items. Because of this, I really don't consider this a big problem.

As you mentioned, the Duskblade can only pick one spell a level. Also, the Duskblade gets his spells later than most other casters. Even Allowing the Duskblade to get Polymorph at 13th level really isn't a game changer, IMO.

What, if any, spells do any of you think would be too dangerous?

[ranagrande]

Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 6 or Duskblade 13/Ur-Priest 7 are both good options.

[Roland St. Jude]

The problem with the Duskblade spell list, as I see it, is the PHBII authors were constrained to include only spells from that book and the PH. There are plenty of thematically appropriate spells on other lists in other books. So, a while back Fax Celestis and I wrote up an expanded list of other spells that were consistent with the duskblade list. That initial discussion is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2416523#post2416523)

The list is here:
Seems like Fax and I put together a list a while back of spells that were in line with the types of spells Duskblades get, but were from other sources. These are the kind of spells already on the duskblade list - the spells we think WotC would have put on the list if they could have. (They generally write each supplement as if only it and core exists so that it doesn't require other books to use.)

So it isn't about what's super-powerful so much as extending the list to other reasonably similar choices.

Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34943)

Fax's list from the Spell Compendium:
From the Spell Compendium, adjusted to what I think would be fair Duskblade level:
L0
Caltrops
Electric Jolt
Know Greatest Enemy
Launch Item
Stick

L1
Corrosive Grasp
Critical Strike
Deafening Clang
Fist of Stone
Ie Dagger
Lightfoot
Nerveskitter
Nightshield
Persistent Blade
Phantom Threat
Rhino's Rush
Snowshoes

L2
Battering Ram
Bladeweave
Body of the Sun
Bristle
Combust
Daggerspell Stance
Delusions of Grandeur
Fireburst
Flame Dagger
Infernal Wound
Ironthunder Horn
Mountain Stance
Rainbow Beam
Scorch
Shadow Spray
Weapon Shift
Wracking Touch

L3
Belker Claws
Body Blades
Clarity of Mind
Diamondsteel
Find the Gap
Knight's Move
Know Opponent
Moon Blade
Ring of Blades
Spectral Weapon
Spider Poison
Steeldance
Sppress Breath Weapon
Unluck
Whirling Blade

L4
Bands of Steel
Blindsight
Displacer Form
Flame Whips
Forcewave
Frost Breath
Lion's Charge
Mind Poison
Vulnerability

L5
Acid Sheath
Aura of Evasion
Charge of the Triceratops
Emerald Flame Fist
Fireburst, Greater
Girallon's Blessing
Ray Deflection
Translocation Trick

From Magic of Incarnum:
L2
Divest Essentia

L4
Rend Essentia
Soulbleed

L5
Valiant Spirit

From Complete Scoundrel:
L1
Armor Lock

L2
Enlarge Weapon

L4
Spell Theft

From the PHB-II:
L2
Cloud of Knives

My list from other sources:
First, I would give them access to every 0-level spell. I know they get some as spell-like abilities from Arcane Attunement, but I think they might as well have access to all of them on the spell list (and not the mere four listed).

(I don't have my SC right now, but here's what I've culled from other sources.)

My premise is that I'm just extending the list to where it should be had the PHBII authors not been constrained to PHB & PHBII. Thus, I assume they included all the PHB & PHBII spells they desired, so while I might want to add more, it's not really in keeping with their intent. (I do think there are more PHB spells that would be fun on their list, perhaps even in keeping with the duskblade flavor, but I'm reluctant to go there.)

BoED
1
Lantern Light
Eyes of the Avoral
2
None
3
Elation
Warcry
4
Radiant Fog
Radiant Shield
5
Vanishing Weapon
Emerald Burst
Touch of Adamantine

BoVD
0
Unnerving Gaze
No Light
Slash Tongue

1
Death Grimace
Abberate
Bestow Wounds
Tongue Tendrils
2
Unheavened
Addiction
Masochism
Sadism
Sap Strength
Darkbolt
Shriveling
3
Devil’s Eye
Evil Eye
Tongue Serpent
Vile Lance
4
Abyssal Might
Hell’s Power
Wrack
5
Resonating Resistance

Libris Mortis
1
Ectoplasmic Armor
Necrotic Awareness
2
Blade of Pain and Fear
Ghost Touch Armor
Necrotic Cyst
Spawn Screen
3
Ectoplasmic Feedback
Necrotic Bloat
4
None
5
Kiss of the Vampire
Necrotic Burst
Night’s Caress
Other:
Spectral Touch (6) as (4)
Avasculate (7) as (5)
Energy Ebb (7) as (5)

Later, when someone asked about the spells from Complete Mage, I added:


Hmm, buffs, rays, movement enhancements, and touch or weapon delivered spells are most consistent with the duskblade list. Off the cuff...

Complete Mage
Assassin Spells
Bloodletting (1)
Catsfeet (1)
Summon Weapon (2)
Rusted Blade (3) (or (4) as per Wiz/Sorc list)
Unseen Strike (4)

Wiz/Sorc Spells
Steam Jet (1)
Escalating Enfeeblement (2)
Heart of Air (2)
Tenacious Dispelling (3)
Heart of Water (3)
Prickling Torment (3)
Heart of Earth (4)
Crypt Warden's Grasp (5)
Touch of Vecna (5)
Heart of Fire (5)
Tactical Teleportation (6) as (5)

Very cautiously, I might suggest the following in an otherwise highly optimized campaign...
Adamantine Wings (7) but as (5)
Unicorn Heart (7) but as (5)

I didn't even consider the WuJen or Hexblade spells nor the divine ones. And this is quite off the cuff based on the short descriptions and my memory.
This was not an attempt to "power-up" the duskblade, just to include material from other sources that was in line with the existing list. More variety represents a slight theoretical increase in power, but not much. Depending on the optimization level of the game, I might also increase the spells known slightly. (I've played one such game with moderately well-optimized allies and it didn't seem unbalancing.)

[DEMON]

Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 6 or Duskblade 13/Ur-Priest 7 are both good options.

Definately good options, but these add spells to the player character, rather than the Duskblade class (what the OP asked for). And many of the spells are completely out of characted for the average Duskblade unless a particular out of the box concept is followed.

While DnD 3E is pretty much created around multiclassing, I personally am not a big fan of dipping here and there just to nitpick class featurs. (On the other hand, your suggestions are not too much down the Dippy McDipper road, but... Ur-Priest? Come on! :smallsmile: ).

Sometimes bending the rules a little is the way to go instead of breaking the game with RAW (which is all too easy). YMMV, of course and as I have written earlier it all depends on the campaing and the players involved.

My 2 more cp


The problem with the Duskblade spell list, as I see it, is the PHBII authors were constrained to include only spells from that book and the PH. There are plenty of thematically appropriate spells on other lists in other books.

This. And I think this is very true for a few other classes as well.



The list

While I don´t agree with all the spells included in the list, I think it´s extensive enough that anyone willing to add to Duskblade´s spell list will find what they´re looking for. In other words a job well done and then some,

[barna10]

The problem with the Duskblade spell list, as I see it, is the PHBII authors were constrained to include only spells from that book and the PH. There are plenty of thematically appropriate spells on other lists in other books. So, a while back Fax Celestis and I wrote up an expanded list other spells that were consistent with the duskblade list.

Good work. I like this.

Touch of Vecna and Kiss of the Vampire!? Too wicked.