Expansion + Mountain Rage = huge goliath?

[veven]

If a goliath manifested expansion through a tattoo to become large sized, could he then use mountain rage to become huge sized?
I might be missing something but I don't see any text similar to Enlarge Person that prevents stacking.

Would raging dispel an already manifested power? My knowledge of psionics is kind of meh.

I think it's also important to note that Mountain Rage is on Extraordinary feature.

[Metahuman1]

I think if you raged and had a readied action to activate the expansion at the same time, you could stack them to make yourself Hugh or even Gargantuan. I could be wrong.

[Flickerdart]

IIRC, Mountain Rage is not "you become a size larger", it's "you become Large". So Expansion doesn't do anything for you before you transform (and since you can't manifest while raging, it doesn't do anything after, either).

[veven]

IIRC, Mountain Rage is not "you become a size larger", it's "you become Large". So Expansion doesn't do anything for you before you transform (and since you can't manifest while raging, it doesn't do anything after, either).

Yup. It appears as though you are correct. Probably a good thing.

[Flickerdart]

The best part is when you take Stoneblessed (Goliath) on a Kobold or something and then take Barbarian levels, so they go from Small to Large when angry.

[Metahuman1]

Is there such a thing as a contingent psionic power? If so, you could get that set up and juice up to large with the contingent being that you enter a mountain rage.

[toapat]

The best part is when you take Stoneblessed (Goliath) on a Kobold or something and then take Barbarian levels, so they go from Small to Large when angry.

(CURSE YOU AMYTHEYST DRAGON FOR BEING LN)

anyway: Dragonwrought Green Stoneblessed Goliath Kobold

Goliath Barbarian 20

"You wont like me when im angry"

[Flickerdart]

(CURSE YOU AMYTHEYST DRAGON FOR BEING LN)

anyway: Dragonwrought Green Stoneblessed Goliath Kobold

Goliath Barbarian 20

"You wont like me when im angry"
Stoneblessed must be Humanoids, which is an incredible shame, because you can't have a Half-Dragon Kobold that gets so angry he grows wings.

[TuggyNE]

Is there such a thing as a contingent psionic power? If so, you could get that set up and juice up to large with the contingent being that you enter a mountain rage.

Yes, there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/contingencyPsionic.htm). Although it would only be really useful with expansion augmented to go two sizes up. (Also, needing 11 levels in Psion or Wilder puts a pretty serious crimp in this.)

[Metahuman1]

Well, Gargantuan treated as colossal and wielding a colossal weapon is the sort of thing one generally wants coming online more at that level then later.

[toapat]

Stoneblessed must be Humanoids, which is an incredible shame, because you can't have a Half-Dragon Kobold that gets so angry he grows wings.

stoneblessed is also an Inhereted template, is it not? or is it an acquired?

[Flickerdart]

stoneblessed is also an Inhereted template, is it not? or is it an acquired?
Stoneblessed is a prestige class.

[toapat]

ah

well, you can then feat retrain into a Dragonwrought Kobold (despite all physics that entails ruining), then (maybe?) get an attonement to reactivate the class.

Oh, and the dragon should be copper, so he goes from orange to green

[Flickerdart]

ah

well, you can then feat retrain into a Dragonwrought Kobold (despite all physics that entails ruining), then (maybe?) get an attonement to reactivate the class.
Atonement doesn't make you qualify for a class that you don't qualify for, and dragonwrought must be taken at level 1, so you are either dragonwrought and can't get in, or can get in but not dragonwrought.

[toapat]

Atonement doesn't make you qualify for a class that you don't qualify for, and dragonwrought must be taken at level 1, so you are either dragonwrought and can't get in, or can get in but not dragonwrought.

i said feat retraining, also wish would be able to reactivate the class afterwards, miracle too. I just thought Atonement because thats typically Atonement's shtik

[Flickerdart]

Right, so you retrain, and then you immediately lose access to Stoneblessed because you could never have gotten into it if you were Dragonwrought. Miracle also can't do that, because qualifying for stuff is a completely metagame thing.

[andromax]

I mighta figured this trick out.

-Go Kobold, Take Dragonwrought feat, acquire the Dragonborn race, apply all the dragonwrought cheese you must. You now have the Dragon type, and still count as a kobold (humanoid) for all racial effects and prerequisites. because "For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race."

-2 levels of Manifester, be sure to take Expansion.
-3 levels of Stoneblessed.
-1 level of Barbarian, take Extra Rage & Mountain Rage

-Be sure to take Practiced Manifester. You'll also want Linked Power, Metapower (Linked power+Expansion).

-Cast any unaugmented 1st level power linked with an augmented Expansion.
-Begin raging, increasing your size from small to large.
-Next round your linked power automatically comes into effect making your gargantuan.

[Flickerdart]

Dragonborn must be humanoids to begin with, so Dragonwrought Kobolds don't qualify. You also cannot manifest while raging, which Rage Mage doesn't help with (transparency only affects spells, SLAs, and magic items, not class features).

[andromax]

The dragonborn children of Bahamut are a unique
race in that they are not born; they are reborn. Each
one enters the world as a half ling, an elf, a human, or
a member of some other humanoid race with all that
race’s propensities and traits. Bahamut beckons to his
would-be followers, and those few who might choose
to serve him.

I may have the wrong idea, but you're still a Kobold. It doesn't specifically say you need the Humanoid type.

[Snowbluff]

The best part is when you take Stoneblessed (Goliath) on a Kobold or something and then take Barbarian levels, so they go from Small to Large when angry.

Or Tibbit.

[mattie_p]

IIRC, Mountain Rage is not "you become a size larger", it's "you become Large". So Expansion doesn't do anything for you before you transform (and since you can't manifest while raging, it doesn't do anything after, either).


Yup. It appears as though you are correct. Probably a good thing.

This is actually unclear:


When he rages, his size category increases to Large. (Although his size category increases by one step,

Ask your DM which interpretation he or she will use. If increases to large is the thing, you may want to be a small character with stoneblessed. If it increases by one step, Expand first (as it requires concentration to manifest, can't do it while raging, but anything manifested prior to will stick around) then rage as a free action to increase yet another step.

[Flickerdart]

I may have the wrong idea, but you're still a Kobold. It doesn't specifically say you need the Humanoid type.
"Humanoid" has a defined meaning in D&D, and a Dragon is not a Humanoid.

[Vaz]

Jotunbrud Goliath Barbarian Psychic Warrior making a Battle Leap; count as colossal during any charge you jump with during a mountain rage.

Requires a bit of DM fiat, or ability to ignore the regional requirements. Hard, but cool nonetheless.

[Flickerdart]

Jotunbrud Goliath Barbarian Psychic Warrior making a Battle Leap; count as colossal during any charge you jump with during a mountain rage.

Requires a bit of DM fiat, or ability to ignore the regional requirements. Hard, but cool nonetheless.
Nope. Jotunbrud is specifically "treated as Large" and even then only for opposed rolls and the special attacks of monsters.

[Vaz]

Aahh. Still, a gargantuan trip/grapple with +8 Strength, decent enough at ECL5

[Hirax]

For what it's worth, I think a goliath under the effects of expansion that then raged would become huge. Rage is non-magical, expansion is magical, and I believe expansion works off of your non-magical size. For instance, if you were a gnome under the effects of enlarge person, and used alter self to change into a human, I also believe you would become large, that enlarge person would work off of your new form, not your old one. Well, that second example actually doesn't work due to multiple magical size increases not stacking. But you get what I mean.

[andromax]

You also cannot manifest while raging, which Rage Mage doesn't help with (transparency only affects spells, SLAs, and magic items, not class features).

I've been trying to figure out where you found that but so far all I've found under the transparency rule is that;



The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is
simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with
powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts
with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known
as psionics–magic transparency.
It goes on to say that creatures with SR get PR & dispel/detect magic works on powers.

Anyways.. I believe you - I just like to know where to find specific rules, if you could point me there.


But.. I've found a way around that anyways. The Metapsionic feat Delay Power lets you use a standard action (we're gonna use the use any feat clause under Rage Mage) to trigger the Delayed Power, which you would do while raging.

This means you'd need to have a ML of 8 since delay power costs +2. Power point cost reducers (earth power, etc) could negate this, or even Metapower, or both.

EDIT: Even better would be a Meta Power - linked power - Expansion.. costing only 5 PP to grow 2 size cats. Oh yea and if you link it with Bite of the Wolf you get a free 4d6 bite for 1 min/lvl

Still need to find a way to take Dragonwrought AND Stoneblessed though.. maybe an aquired template.... I'll be back to this thread some day if I find it. In the meantime, this would be a cool trick for any small or smaller race.

[TuggyNE]

I've been trying to figure out where you found that but so far all I've found under the transparency rule is that;


It goes on to say that creatures with SR get PR & dispel/detect magic works on powers.

Anyways.. I believe you - I just like to know where to find specific rules, if you could point me there.


Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

And, unfortunately, it has only those ramifications; class features aren't mentioned, and are not affected (unless they somehow mimic one of the listed aspects).

[andromax]

And, unfortunately, it has only those ramifications; class features aren't mentioned, and are not affected (unless they somehow mimic one of the listed aspects).

Yeah, I get that.. It's kinda silly but oh well.. we can still sneak around that for this concept.

[andromax]

Muahahahahaa!

Alright.. this takes some templates and stuff, but it's workable.

-Firstly.. whenever you are done adding dragonwrought cheese, you take an inherited template that a dragon is able to take, that changes your type to construct.

I chose Elder Eidolon, though there are a few others that do this, such as I chose Effigy Creature, theres also Dustform (wouldnt recommend) etc. EDIT: Elder Eidolon is inherited, unfortunately. Effigy is similar, cheaper, and acquired.

Secondly, take the Incarnate Construct template and change back to humanoid.

Now you get all your Dragonwrought cheese and can be a humanoid and take levels in Stoneblessed.

It should now be possible to, as a Dragonwrought Kobold, have all your dragonwrought cheese, grow from small to Gargantuan, and do it by level 6.

Though I don't think you'd be able to take any more dragon feats after the last bit of templating.
EDIT: This post is fail.

[Flickerdart]

Muahahahahaa!

Alright.. this takes some templates and stuff, but it's workable.

-Firstly.. whenever you are done adding dragonwrought cheese, you take an inherited template that a dragon is able to take, that changes your type to construct.

I chose Elder Eidolon, though there are a few others that do this, such as Effigy Creature, Dustform (wouldnt recommend) etc.

Secondly, take the Incarnate Construct template and change back to humanoid.

Now you get all your Dragonwrought cheese and can be a humanoid and take levels in Stoneblessed.

It should now be possible to, as a Dragonwrought Kobold, have all your dragonwrought cheese, grow from small to Gargantuan, and do it by level 6.

Though I don't think you'd be able to take any more dragon feats after the last bit of templating.
As soon as you become a Construct, you no longer qualify for, and thus lose, all of your Dragon stuff.

[andromax]

yeah that failed I guess..

[andromax]

Okay I give up on fitting dragonwrought in there. It still works perfectly fine without it though.

[Spuddles]

2 levels of psy war, 4 levels of anything, and practiced manifester eta you two size increases and about 4 extra power points due to the way ML and bonus pp work.

Didn't see it mentioned; thought it was worth mentioning.

[andromax]

That's the method we're already using, also alluded to in the title of the thread, But thanks :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

That's the method we're already using, also alluded to in the title of the thread, But thanks :smalltongue:

If they stack, you'd get gargantuan, not huge.

[andromax]

Yes, you're correct.. we went over that on the first page

[absolmorph]

Yes, there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/contingencyPsionic.htm). Although it would only be really useful with expansion augmented to go two sizes up. (Also, needing 11 levels in Psion or Wilder puts a pretty serious crimp in this.)
Solution. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/usePsionicDevice.htm)

[andromax]

"Humanoid" has a defined meaning in D&D, and a Dragon is not a Humanoid.

I guess I'm having trouble coming to terms with this.


• Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

Please explain to me why this wouldn't work... It explicitly states that you still count as a dragon, AND your original race.


According to the flavor text you don't have to have the Humanoid type to be a Dragonborn. You have to be a member of a Humanoid race, which Kobolds are. Dragonwrought doesn't change that, it changes their type. They're still kobolds. Even if it did require the Humanoid type, you still count as a kobold which does have a humanoid type.

Additionally, and specifically... the prerequisites for the template say nothing about race whatsoever.

Also.. under the 'mechanics of rebirth' it says


Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and
subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as
a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or
prerequisite that depends on race.

That right there is telling me that a) I still have the dragon type, and b) I'm still a kobold, and still count as a humanoid for any effect or prerequisite that depends on race. In this case entry into Stoneblessed.

Now, let's look at the Stoneblessed's Stoneborn (ex) ability.

In addition, for all effects related to race, a stoneblessed is considered a member of the race to which she is bonded....The stone blessed meets any racial prerequisite for prestige classes and feats as if she were a member of her bonded race.

Now this isn't telling me that I get to add monstrous humanoid to my type, but what it is telling me is that I count as a goliath (which has a monstrous humanoid type) as well as a kobold, regardless of my type.




Solution. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/usePsionicDevice.htm)

And that sounds like a really expensive way to get that to work, when all you need to do is use linked power to get gargantuan sized.

[andromax]

Just reposting this, since the last few people who jumped in here didn't bother to go back and read all the text.

-Go Kobold, Take Dragonwrought feat, acquire the Dragonborn race, apply all the dragonwrought cheese you must. You now have the Dragon type, and still count as a kobold for all racial effects and prerequisites. because "For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race." And another quote because redundancy is always good. "You retain your original type (in this case dragon) and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race (in this case Kobold, which is a humanoid) for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race."

-2 levels of Manifester, be sure to take Expansion.
-3 levels of Stoneblessed.
-1 level of Barbarian, take Extra Rage & Mountain Rage

-Be sure to take Practiced Manifester. You'll also want Linked Power, Metapower (Linked power+Expansion).

-Cast any unaugmented 1st level power linked with an augmented Expansion.
-Begin raging, increasing your size from small to large.
-Next round your linked power automatically comes into effect making you gargantuan.

[Vaz]

If they stack, you'd get gargantuan, not huge.

And to throw Battle Jump in there (if you can argue correctly to your GM that a Goliath is from Taer), you can get a Colossal bonus on Trip attacks/Grapples on the charge when you jump. At, what, level 6?

[mattie_p]

Race is not a defined game term like type is. Usually it pops up in things like "this magic item does an extra 1d6 damage against kobolds" or something like that.

For example, while the race is kobold, its original subtype is humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian). There is no humanoid (kobold) subtype. Let's say your type is humanoid (human). Surely your race is human, correct? Not so, you could also be illumian (Races of Destiny) or Mongrelfolk. Neither race is human, even though the type and subtype matches, and depending on how your DM interprets race, illumians and mongrelfolk may or may not qualify for racist stuff like chameleon prestige class.

Type and subtype have nothing to do with race. One more example. Say that there is a human who is slain and comes back as a ghost. They are now an Undead (Incorporeal, Augmentented Humanoid [Human]). Even with all that, their race is human.

[Vaz]

Race - check out Arcane Archer. Prerequisites -

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm

Race: Elf

If you became a Dragonborn Elf, which changed you to Race: Dragonborn, as opposed to Race: Dragonborn, and Race: Elf, then you would not be able to become an Arcane Archer.

Dragonwrought changes your Type; Dragonwrought requires "Kobold". Hence, you may become a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold.

[Metahuman1]

Question: Couldn't you get a psi-crystal and have it do the augmented expansion on you? Cause that would allow you to rage and still get expanded as soon as you do, allowing you to hit Gargantuan treated as colossal.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yup. It appears as though you are correct. Probably a good thing.

Meanwhile the Human with Strongarm Bracers, no level adjustment, and able to be targeted by the much cheaper and more common enlarge person is over in the corner laughing his ass off... :smallfrown:

[herrhauptmann]

This whole thing reminds me of: Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132294)

The best part is when you take Stoneblessed (Goliath) on a Kobold or something and then take Barbarian levels, so they go from Small to Large when angry.
Take the feat/flaw slight built. So you can squirm through spaces like someone who's Tiny, but becomes large when angry. (See Tiny above)

ah

well, you can then feat retrain into a Dragonwrought Kobold (despite all physics that entails ruining), then (maybe?) get an attonement to reactivate the class.

Oh, and the dragon should be copper, so he goes from orange to green
Question: How does Atonement reactivate a class like Stoneblessed?

Restore Class

A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.
It's not like you 'fell' by violating your code of conduct. Clerics can use atonement after changing deities, but bards and barbarians can't use atonement in that way to restore their class features.
They'd use Atonement in this manner:

Redemption or Temptation

You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.

Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful.
In short, for the alignment change.


Hurrah, someone besides me knows how Jotunbrud works!

[andromax]

...
and Race: Elf, then you would not be able to become an Arcane Archer.


except that "You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race."

I don't know why people keep ignoring that.

[Vaz]

I didn't. Read the rest of my post in which i agreed with you.

[andromax]

Oh, my bad... I guess I didn't really understand your post. Sorry.

[Flickerdart]

Take the feat/flaw slight built. So you can squirm through spaces like someone who's Tiny, but becomes large when angry. (See Tiny above)

There's a Slight Build feat or flaw? The only one I know is the racial feature Kobolds already have.

[herrhauptmann]

There's a Slight Build feat or flaw? The only one I know is the racial feature Kobolds already have.

Maybe that was it.
I thought it was an optional thing, sort of the reverse of Jotunbrud.

[Xarteros]

IIRC, Mountain Rage is not "you become a size larger", it's "you become Large". So Expansion doesn't do anything for you before you transform (and since you can't manifest while raging, it doesn't do anything after, either).

I'd take that in context from Goliath being medium size. The idea is that they are ALMOST large size already. Casting Enlarge or any similar 'one size category increase' spells/effects would make them large but ALMOST huge. The Extraordinary ability of Mountain Rage is to make their body swell and bulk up, increasing their size just enough to push them up one category, from Medium to Large just as it should from Large to Huge

Open to interpretation of course, as any rule is for each DM's preferences, but this is about the 'spirit' of the ability. If you had some way of becoming gargantuan size, using Mountain Rage shouldn't reduce you to large size, that'd just be plain silly and wouldn't fit the spirit of the ability, even if it technically followed the RAW

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.