SW: Saga. PC Build Critique

[Thrysierius]

Edited: 1/30/2013
Thank you for all your feedback everyone. I've made the modifications based on the suggestions to include Withdrawl Strike, Trick Step, Double Attack, Triple Crit, and another 2 levels of Master Privateer to reduce the Double Attack penalty to only -1. :D

Now I just have to wait for Alejandro to dole out enough XP to get these levels!

Stats
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 15
WIS: 13
CHA: 14

Trained Skill
Climb, Deception, Gather Information, Initiative, Mechanics, Persuasion, Pilot, Use Computer

Feats
Point Blank Shot, Running Attack, Vehicular Combat, WP: Pistols, WP: Simple Melee

Talents
Space Hound

Saga has one of the best systems to multi-class IMO, something I decided to take advantage of to fill in the gaps of our party's skill set. So, I set out my character progression, and thus the following:

Progression
First, a little Legend

BF: - Class Bonus Feat
WP: - Weapon Proficiency
CLFeat: - Character Class Level Feat
VF: - Vehicular Focus (Ace Pilot Talent)


Character Levels

Scoundrel (1) Running Attack, Vehicular Combat, Talent: Space Hound
Scoundrel (2) BF: Fleet Footed
Scoundrel (2) Scout (1) BF: WP Rifle, Talent: Evasion
Scoundrel (3) Scout (1) Dex:Int, Talent: Knack
Scoundrel (3) Scout (1) Soldier (1) Feat: Armor Prof:Light Talent: Tough as Nails
Scoundrel (3) Scout (1) Soldier (2) CLFeat: StarShip Tactics, BF: Assured Attack
Scoundrel (3) Scout (1) Soldier (3) Talent: Counter Punch
Scoundrel (3) Scout (1) Soldier (3) Ace Pilot (1) Dex:Wis, +1 Maneuver, +4 Ref +2 Fort, Talent: VF: Space Transports
Scoundrel (3) Scout (1) Soldier (4) Ace Pilot (1) BF: Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee, CLFeat: Weapon Finesse, Retrain Running Attack to Combat Reflexes
Scoundrel (4) Scout (1) Soldier (4) Ace Pilot (1) BF: Rapid Strike
Scoundrel (4) Scout (1) Soldier (5) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Assault
Scoundrel (4) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Dex:Con, BF: Melee Defense, CLFeat: Withdrawl Strike
Scoundrel (4) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) +4 Ref +2 Will, Advantageous Strike
Scoundrel (5) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) Sneak Attack, Retrain Space Hound to Sneak Attack
Scoundrel (6) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) CLFeat: Double Attack, BF: Combat Trickery
Scoundrel (7) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) Dex:Con, Trick Step, Retrain Combat Trickery to SF: Initiative
Scoundrel (7) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) Master Privateer (1) +2 Ref +4 Will, Multi-Attack Proficiency
Scoundrel (7) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) Master Privateer (2) Veteran Privateer, CLFeat: Triple Crit
Scoundrel (7) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (1) Melee Duelist (1) Master Privateer (3) Multi-Attack Proficiency
Scoundrel (7) Scout (1) Soldier (6) Ace Pilot (2) Melee Duelist (1) Master Privateer (3) Dex:Con, +1 Vehicle Reflex


I own a YT-2400 ship that we use as our main transport. In combat, I'm more often making myself a target via insults/annoyances and evasion tanking by combining high Reflex defense, Fighting defensively, and Acrobatic training.

So let the feedback begin. DISCLAIMER: I will ignore all responses that are thinly veiled trolling attempts :smallwink:

[Alejandro]

I'm the GM for this pile, so I must plead the 5th. :)

[IdleMuse]

Just quickly, I assume from your table that you are a Human and that Alejandro is using the common Skill-Training-instead-of-one-class-starting-feat House rule for multiclassing?

[Thrysierius]

I'm the GM for this pile, so I must plead the 5th. :)

And yet you approved it. :smalltongue:

One other thing to note: based on other threads, Alejandro allows us to retrain feats/talents when we level, much like you can in D&D 4E. The same rules apply, you can only retrain one feat or talent, you have to meet the requirements, and you must retrain it for one of the same class.

Example: At level 14 of my PC, I'm going to retrain the Space Hound talent for the Sneak Attack talent. Since both are Scoundrel talents, and neither have a pre-req that I don't already meet, he allows it. I couldn't retrain it to a talent in the Soldier/Scout/Ace Pilot talent trees though because Space Hound is a Scoundrel (Spacer talent tree) talent.

[Thrysierius]

Just quickly, I assume from your table that you are a Human and that Alejandro is using the common Skill-Training-instead-of-one-class-starting-feat House rule for multiclassing?

Yes, he is human and after further review, he did let us do skill training instead of the starting feat. Seriously, I will never wear Light Armor and Soldiers really don't get much else.

[Alejandro]

Just quickly, I assume from your table that you are a Human and that Alejandro is using the common Skill-Training-instead-of-one-class-starting-feat House rule for multiclassing?

Yes. That is allowed.

[IdleMuse]

It looks like a pretty good build overall. I mean, it's interesting that you continue to take Soldier levels late, but looking at the talents you're picking up, that's fair enough. Based on what you said you're trying to do, Draw Fire might be a better talent than Tough as Nails, but that depends on your party, if healing is hard to come by, then it might be worthwhile. It's probably too late on to mention Backgrounds at this point, but if you are gonna have trouble healing up, the Marooned event background helps a lot. Draw Fire also explicitly works in spaceship combat.

The other things I noted are; you don't get Weapon Finesse until late. I don't know what level you're currently at, but you might find it hard to hit with attacks until then. Might want to think about switching it with Assured Attack, which become more useful later when you start getting Sneak Attack.

You also don't have any form of Double Attack style shenanigans, which will cause your damage to start tailing off, despite Rapid Strike and SA. I'd definitely consider switching the lvl15 Starship Maneuvers or the lvl12 Rapid Strike to Double Attack (Adv melee) and using the Master Privateer talent to pick up Multiattack Proficiency (and if you fill in the rest of the levels with Master Privateer, that lets you take it again, and also Bloodthristy). This qualifies you to take some of the more fun stuff with Melee Duelist, adding some movement flexibility back in.

Does that make sense? Also, apologies if I'm counting this wrong somewhere, but you don't actually appear to have taken a feat at level 3, where you were due one from character level up. I'm guessing you should have SF:Pilot here.

Oh, and lastly, Trick Step is a great Scoundrel talent if you're going for extra Sneak Attack damage, it's generally better than Combat Trickery, I feel, in that it's generally easier to win, isn't mind-affecting (possibly), and only takes one swift action, not two. You lose the FP ability of Combat Trickery, but I don't feel that's a good use of FPs anyway. And obviously, you'd need to refactor the build, as it's a talent, not a feat. Could retrain Knack, I guess?

Overall, it's a good multi-threat build.

[Alejandro]

IdleMuse, I appreciate your feedback for Thrys. He specifically wanted yours. :) But I can promise you one thing, when he reads this: You threatened his Precious (Knack.) ;)

[Thrysierius]

IdleMuse, I appreciate your feedback for Thrys. He specifically wanted yours. :) But I can promise you one thing, when he reads this: You threatened his Precious (Knack.) ;)

Yes, Knack is very precious to me. I have abused it so many times it's not funny.


It looks like a pretty good build overall. I mean, it's interesting that you continue to take Soldier levels late, but looking at the talents you're picking up, that's fair enough. Based on what you said you're trying to do, Draw Fire might be a better talent than Tough as Nails, but that depends on your party, if healing is hard to come by, then it might be worthwhile. Draw Fire also explicitly works in spaceship combat.
Healing is a bit hard to come by. We do have med kits and a medical droid but our one Jedi can only vital transfer so much before she's done. She's also not focusing on healing via the Force. I took it early on so I could stay in fighting shape longer but given you can only second wind once an encounter, I'm not against swapping it out.


The other things I noted are; you don't get Weapon Finesse until late. I don't know what level you're currently at, but you might find it hard to hit with attacks until then. Might want to think about switching it with Assured Attack, which become more useful later when you start getting Sneak Attack.
We're currently 8th level. During levels 7 and 8, it wasn't possible for my character to really receive training to be better at melee swordplay (had to earn favor with an old sword master first). Now that I've been training with him, at 9th level I can take both Weapon Finesse and WF: Advanced Melee justifiably in the game. Otherwise yes I would have taken it MUCH sooner.


You also don't have any form of Double Attack style shenanigans, which will cause your damage to start tailing off, despite Rapid Strike and SA. I'd definitely consider switching the lvl15 Starship Maneuvers or the lvl12 Rapid Strike to Double Attack (Adv melee) and using the Master Privateer talent to pick up Multiattack Proficiency (and if you fill in the rest of the levels with Master Privateer, that lets you take it again, and also Bloodthristy). This qualifies you to take some of the more fun stuff with Melee Duelist, adding some movement flexibility back in.
I started looking at the Double Attack/Multi-attack routes but it seemed like it was going to cost a lot of feats and make it nearly impossible to get the pre-reqs for Melee Duelist. Rapid Strike is one of the requirements.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it would work like this: You can make two attacks with the feat at a -5 penalty on each attack with Double Attack. The Multi-attack talent from Master Privateer (Force Unleashed page 52) would make the penalty a -3. If I fight defensively though, (adding another -5) that's a total of -8 if I full attack.

The reason I have Counter Punch, Advantageous Strike (+5 to OAs with melee weapon) and the Combat Reflexes feat is what I planned to so was fight defensively at a -5 penalty, then OA them without a penalty as they attack me back. Of course this will only work with enemies that are adjacent and not ranged but I'm willing to accept that.


Does that make sense? Also, apologies if I'm counting this wrong somewhere, but you don't actually appear to have taken a feat at level 3, where you were due one from character level up. I'm guessing you should have SF:Pilot here.
Yes, you are correct and that is exactly what I took at Level 3. Good eye.


Oh, and lastly, Trick Step is a great Scoundrel talent if you're going for extra Sneak Attack damage, it's generally better than Combat Trickery, I feel, in that it's generally easier to win, isn't mind-affecting (possibly), and only takes one swift action, not two. You lose the FP ability of Combat Trickery, but I don't feel that's a good use of FPs anyway.
In all honesty I wasn't going purely for Sneak Attack damage. As listed above, I plan to Fight Defensively more often than not to take advantage of the Counter Punch/Advantageous Strike/Combat Reflexes synergy. Combat Trickery came into play to allow me to still attack on my turn and possibly stack more punishment when they counter-attack. I didn't think about Trick Step though. Since I already have training in Initiative, picking up Skill Focus with it and retooling a bit to take Trick Step would work out better in the long run.

[IdleMuse]

Healing is a bit hard to come by. We do have med kits and a medical droid but our one Jedi can only vital transfer so much before she's done. She's also not focusing on healing via the Force. I took it early on so I could stay in fighting shape longer but given you can only second wind once an encounter, I'm not against swapping it out.

It does sound like you have enough healing about. I mean, I'm basing this on my own experiences, maybe you face more attrition, but a steady supply of medpacks, a meddroid, and a Jedi with VT for emergency in-battle healing is probably enough. I'd recommend noting down every time you use Tough As Nails, that'll help you get a gauge of how much it's helping you.


I started looking at the Double Attack/Multi-attack routes but it seemed like it was going to cost a lot of feats and make it nearly impossible to get the pre-reqs for Melee Duelist. Rapid Strike is one of the requirements.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it would work like this: You can make two attacks with the feat at a -5 penalty on each attack with Double Attack. The Multi-attack talent from Master Privateer (Force Unleashed page 52) would make the penalty a -3. If I fight defensively though, (adding another -5) that's a total of -8 if I full attack.

The reason I have Counter Punch, Advantageous Strike (+5 to OAs with melee weapon) and the Combat Reflexes feat is what I planned to so was fight defensively at a -5 penalty, then OA them without a penalty as they attack me back. Of course this will only work with enemies that are adjacent and not ranged but I'm willing to accept that.

The AoO build is nice, but as you point out, it does require you being in base contact with foes, and you haven't got the most mobility there. Any intelligent opponent is going to figure out what you're doing, fighting defensively, and either withdraw and attack from range with guns, or just attack other people. I mean, if you're finding that's not a problem, then great! 8D But I'd consider at least investing in some additional attack power for the late levels.

One other thing you might want to consider, if you need another feat at any point, is retraining Running Attack. Later on in the build you actually WANT to remain adjacent to foes, making it less useful? Or have I missed a trick?

[Alejandro]

Thryserius (I have to keep remembering to not use his real name) also knows that I just love to have enemies get in his face as much as shoot at him, and that I love fencing and duels, so he's also playing to his audience. :)

[Thrysierius]

It does sound like you have enough healing about. I mean, I'm basing this on my own experiences, maybe you face more attrition, but a steady supply of medpacks, a meddroid, and a Jedi with VT for emergency in-battle healing is probably enough. I'd recommend noting down every time you use Tough As Nails, that'll help you get a gauge of how much it's helping you.
I have not used it as much as I expected to, but it has been used several times. Since I do own a jetpack (gotta love anything I can use my monsterous +16 bonus with) I thought about swapping this out with JetPack Training. What are your thoughts?



The AoO build is nice, but as you point out, it does require you being in base contact with foes, and you haven't got the most mobility there. Any intelligent opponent is going to figure out what you're doing, fighting defensively, and either withdraw and attack from range with guns, or just attack other people. I mean, if you're finding that's not a problem, then great! 8D But I'd consider at least investing in some additional attack power for the late levels.

One other thing you might want to consider, if you need another feat at any point, is retraining Running Attack. Later on in the build you actually WANT to remain adjacent to foes, making it less useful? Or have I missed a trick?
Running Attack was something that had its uses earlier on, but now is not getting much mileage. Now that I'm moving more melee and effectively "herding" enemies around, it looks like retraining this would probably be something I'll do next level. Now if only I could retrain it to a Soldier bonus feat. :smallbiggrin:

[IdleMuse]

I have not used it as much as I expected to, but it has been used several times. Since I do own a jetpack (gotta love anything I can use my monsterous +16 bonus with) I thought about swapping this out with JetPack Training. What are your thoughts?

Jetpack training is certainly not a bad idea. I'm AFB right now, so I can't look up exactly what the specific talent does, all I remember is that there's a tree, but as long as it more or less enables you to fly into an adjacent square to an opponent in teh first round of combat, that's good.

[Alejandro]

The opening talent is Jet Pack Training. It lets you activate jet packs as a free action (instead of a swift) and negates the need for any Pilot checks to land.

[Mando Knight]

If you're going for exploiting Attacks of Opportunity, you need Withdrawal Strike or some kind of reach. Otherwise, one move action is all it takes to ignore your threat.

Given the power and ubiquity of blasters, I'd start with the assumption that you'll be fighting them first and foremost.

[Thrysierius]

If you're going for exploiting Attacks of Opportunity, you need Withdrawal Strike or some kind of reach. Otherwise, one move action is all it takes to ignore your threat.

Given the power and ubiquity of blasters, I'd start with the assumption that you'll be fighting them first and foremost.

I was considering Withdrawal Strike honestly, may have to reconsider it.

Typically, I'm one of the first targeted (my PC has a big mouth and a penchant for popping off at the big baddy), sometimes just because he ends up near the front of the fray instead of remaining hidden.

[IdleMuse]

I was considering Withdrawal Strike honestly, may have to reconsider it.

Seconding Withdrawal Strike. Would be a good retrain for Running Attack.

[Thrysierius]

Seconding Withdrawal Strike. Would be a good retrain for Running Attack.

Crud... I was all set to go swap it out next level, when I found out it's not a Scoundrel Bonus Feat. It is for Soldier and Jedi only. :smallannoyed: Time to poke around in my build some more. :smallyuk:

EDIT: It's also not really legal according to the rules. You have to have a +5 BAB to take it, something I did not have at Level 1. I'll tinker more, there's always other options.

[Thrysierius]

Edited and updated the build. Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I've made several changes which include Withdrawl Strike, Trick Step, Triple Crit, Double Attack, Multi-Attack Proficiency, etc.