Need Dungeon DMing Advice

[JimboG]

I'm the type of DM that enjoys the classic dirty dungeon crawling in narrow corridors and locked doors that DnD made famous. It's not always the most complicated, but I like it. However, I have a group of players that really abuse some of the logical fallacies of a classic evil dungeon of monsters, and I'm really not sure how to deal with it without resorting to repetitive gimmicks.

For example, many times in my dungeons the players will put their beefiest player up front in the doorway and then funnel the enemies in one by one while the ranged characters shoot arrows and magic from behind. This has lead to many encounters becoming very trivial, especially when the room the monsters are in is designed a certain way to make the encounter more challenging.

Now yes, that is a very simple example, but it's stuff like that I don't know how to deal with without making monsters act irrationally through gimmicks like waiting for the players to enter before attacking, but then the players just close the door they unlocked and go in another direction. I've tried to make enemies hide or come to life only after the players have entered, but I can only do that so many times before it gets boring, and it only takes one successful spot check to reveal they're walking into a "trap."

In ages past the games I used to play in, me and the players had the courtesy to enter rooms and just combat the encounter classic style because that's kind of how the game was designed, but now everyone I play with just turtles up and abuses the fact that there are hallways and doors linking rooms, which also really complicates combat when battles back-peddle into rooms they've already cleared.

How do you guys handle classic dungeons and what would you suggest I do to encourage players to "play by the unwritten rules," so to speak?

[Immabozo]

I say, take advantage of that fact. You could have a big guy bullrush the one in the doorway and then guys come out behind the initial monster and all the squishy ones are right there! Or attack from behind, or drop down from above. Or a Harpoon spider, or another such creature grapples the first guy with his silk (or a net or something) and drags him into the room and the party must give chase to rescue! Or one of those abominations that look exactly like a treasure chest until you are within 5 feet, when it attacks you.

[Medic!]

Pincer attacks using a room with multiple doors.

Mirror their tactics and block the doorway toe-to-toe with the party's beefcake while monsters hurl ranged attacks.

Make an occassional door a portal disguised as a door that doesn't open, but instead transports the opener into the room.

Have monsters attack the doorway and collapse it.

Having studied the party's tactics, one of the deeper rooms has been outfitted with a lever that will spring a trap outside the room to twart the tactic. Obviously not something that would be common, due to the time and resources needed to "update" the dungeon by its residents.

A monster particuarly adept at grappling could try to drag the beefcake into the room.

While the meat-shield is busy funneling the dumb monsters, a smarter one with some teleport ability or warlock levels or whatever ports out into the hallway and starts precision-striking squishies.

A moral quandry: an innocent or important person is in the room as a hostage with a timed imminent death hanging over his/her head. "Ugh, this guillotine lever is stuck, it'll take me at least 24 seconds to budge it!"

[demigodus]

Have you talked to your players about this? Not everyone sees walking into the room to start the encounter as a base courtesy. A lot of DMs would applaud the players for thinking, and acting rationally for their characters. Your players might simply not know that you consider this inappropriate. Especially if the room has some very disfavorable terrain, there is literally no reason for the players to fight in there.

Basically your players might not know that you consider this inappropriate behavior, or going against your set of "unwritten rules".

[Edge of Dreams]

Monsters can open doors too. When a fight breaks out, you're not necessarily just gonna have to deal with the monsters in one room. The other mobs two rooms over could easily overhear the fight and come to check it out, possibly even opening a side door the player's have not look at yet, catching them from the side or behind.

Also, who says every room needs closed doors? If a door is standing wide open, or has been knocked down, the players may get noticed by monsters before they can rush up to the chokepoint.

What about larger doorways? A 5-foot door is easily blocked, but a 10 or 15-foot archway is significantly tougher to control with a single character.

Oh, and are you applying the appropriate penalties for the fact that your ranged attackers are having to shoot through the square the tank is standing in?

Finally, not all monsters attack head on mindlessly. What if the monsters are smart enough to realize they are being funneled, so they retreat a room or two away?

[Slipperychicken]

Play their game. If the dungeon denizens are intelligent (or even possess a wolf's grasp of group tactics. Wolves have Int 2), you can justify them making all kinds of smart decisions instead of floundering around like video game AI. Flanks, retreats, calling reinforcements, setting ambushes, and so on can really make the game interesting.

Don't keep the monsters holed up in one room, let them navigate around and/or call for friends to set the PCs on a multi-front defensive if they hesitate too long. If they close the door and walk away, the monsters can just open it and rush the PCs from behind; using their own tactic against them. If the PCs get too noisy, they can potentially bring a whole dungeon worth of semi-intelligent enemies crashing down on them (especially if they're sentient, or pack animals).

Of course some monsters are walking down the halls to do monster errands like prowling, hunting, impressing mates, or doing their masters' bidding.

[Edge of Dreams]

Oooh, one more trick: put the nasty terrain in the room BEFORE the one the monsters are in!

[JimboG]

Have you talked to your players about this? Not everyone sees walking into the room to start the encounter as a base courtesy. A lot of DMs would applaud the players for thinking, and acting rationally for their characters. Your players might simply not know that you consider this inappropriate. Especially if the room has some very disfavorable terrain, there is literally no reason for the players to fight in there.

Basically your players might not know that you consider this inappropriate behavior, or going against your set of "unwritten rules".

Thatnk you for your response. I guess the better question is, how do you do it? I'm looking more for other people's stories so I can see what you guys do, because apparently dungeon crawling culture has changed since I last played. When your players unlock a door and see what's inside (a bunch of beefy orcs eating dinner, for example) what is it you want/ expect to happen? How does the classic dungeon labyrinth stay relevant when retreating back into the hallways appears to be the best strategy?

In my defense, I'm not forcing them to just walk into blatant traps. I'm not giving the enemies an unfair advantage by simply being in the same room as the players. Basically, the way I used to play back in the day, you opened a door, the DM described the room layout, told us there were 5 or so mean looking centipedes in the room, and we all rolled initiative and started most encounters in a group in front of the doorway we've opened, and treated the room as the "encounter space."

Now, players say they creak the door open, peek inside, swing open the door, shoot the nearest enemy, and then backpeddle into the hallways and beat to death every monster that funnels in. I dunno, maybe I'm just REALLY old fashioned, but this seems like a really boring way to play, and I'm just not familiar with this way of thinking when playing a game. =/

[Edge of Dreams]

because apparently dungeon crawling culture has changed since I last played.

Part of the change, if there is one, is the move away from neatly defined X-feet-by-Y-feet rooms that all connect to each other in a sort of grid with the occasionally 10-foot-wide hallway. A lot of the dungeons that get run these days include natural cave spaces and other such terrain where it is more feasible that the party and the monsters will not notice each other until the players are out in the middle of a larger area.

Also, the funnel-into-chokepoint strategy is less favored when you have more than one melee-focused character in your party. If you've got a sword-and-board Fighter hanging out with a bunch of casters and archers, that party will have very different tactics from one made up of that same Fighter working with a Paladin, a dual-wielding Rogue, and a Duskblade. The latter party will want to rush into the next room, or retreat and draw the monsters into the previous room, so they can flank enemies and all gang up on foes.

[JimboG]

Part of the change, if there is one, is the move away from neatly defined X-feet-by-Y-feet rooms that all connect to each other in a sort of grid with the occasionally 10-foot-wide hallway. A lot of the dungeons that get run these days include natural cave spaces and other such terrain where it is more feasible that the party and the monsters will not notice each other until the players are out in the middle of a larger area.

Also, the funnel-into-chokepoint strategy is less favored when you have more than one melee-focused character in your party. If you've got a sword-and-board Fighter hanging out with a bunch of casters and archers, that party will have very different tactics from one made up of that same Fighter working with a Paladin, a dual-wielding Rogue, and a Duskblade. The latter party will want to rush into the next room, or retreat and draw the monsters into the previous room, so they can flank enemies and all gang up on foes.

That seems to be the case. It's been a LOOOONG time since I played, and I started a campaign with my nieces and nephews after learning they played with their friends in school, but apparently the dungeon crawling I played in my prime is nothing like the dungeon crawling of today. Maybe I should play with my nephews and nieces as a player rather than the DM so I can get caught up on modern DnD, lol.

[Slipperychicken]

Now, players say they creak the door open, peek inside, swing open the door, shoot the nearest enemy, and then backpeddle into the hallways and beat to death every monster that funnels in. I dunno, maybe I'm just REALLY old fashioned, but this seems like a really boring way to play, and I'm just not familiar with this way of thinking when playing a game. =/

That only works if the monsters all rush into the chokepoint like lemmings to their deaths. Otherwise, all you've done is alerted them, so they can make preparations. Things like buffing, maneuvering to different rooms, setting up traps and barricades, calling reinforcements, and so on.

[tzar1990]

In my opinion, the problem here is that you're used to a more Gamist approach, and your players are playing the game in a Simulationist way.

Gamist approaches to D&D tend to focus on Combat as Sport. That is, players enter the arena with a number of abilities, fight the monsters in that area, and the continue the adventure. There's an unspoken social code in play, with the players and the DM both understanding that battles are supposed to occur in certain times and places. D&D 4e is pretty good an emphasizing this. All the players have their own set of abilities, the DMG includes advice on building a balanced enemy team, and the focus on having miniatures means that the players will tend to stay in the arena, just because that's what's drawn out on the table.

Simulationist approaches to D&D, on the other hand, tend to focus on Combat as War. To a simulationist, the goal is to be a rational actor within the setting, which means that players will try to do what makes the most since for their character. In this case, it's trying to pull every dirty trick or clever maneuver they can, since their characters really don't want to die. 3.5 and Pathfinder tend to emphasize this a little more, with spells designed for pulling off out-of-combat or pre-combat tricks, and a monster manual that that gives details on the role and behaviour of the given monster outside of combat - thus encouraging players to approach it from an angle of weakness, rather than head-on face-breaking.

Neither approach is bad, they're just different strokes for different folks. It's like the difference between western computer RPGs with in-world combat, and jRPGs with random encounters.

[JaronK]

In which case the best response as a DM is to respond in kind, playing the kind of game they want to play. Design the dungeons as the creatures would design them... there should be defensive choke points, escape routes, fall back points, and emergency procedures. Alarm traps should be just ahead of choke points... when the alarm goes off, they scramble to defend the choke point. Choke points should additionally have extra attack routes, so that an enemy that's stopped by the choke point can now be flanked (or hit with dropped weights from the ceiling, or similar).

This doesn't mean every dungeon should be Fort Knox, of course. But they should have thought about defense a bit, assuming they're intelligent.

JaronK

[andromax]

...thus encouraging players to approach it from an angle of weakness, rather than head-on face-breaking.

That... also - its more common for a DM to reward players for being clever than by pulling a Leroy and charging off into the unknown.

With that said, being clever yourself as others here have pointed out is how you deal with your players.

My suggestions, create some unique 'traps' out of inconspicuous environment.

You could temporarily separate them, cutting them off with a portcullis, and sending a swarm or 2 in to drive them away from it while they battle a few baddies on either side.

In order to progress further into the dungeon they have to rappel down a 40' well shaft. This opens into a larger room where they are ambushed after all making it down.

That sort of stuff.

Think of scenarios where retrograding isn't the best tactic. You want to see Violence of Action.

[Darrin]

Your players aren't doing anything wrong. They are capitalizing on the weaknesses of the situation you're presenting them with and playing very, very smartly.

Your monsters, however, should be playing just as smartly, particularly after they see how your players are playing (or hear about their reputations).

Some ideas:

* First, smart monsters should retreat when they realize the PCs have a superior position and enough resources to wipe them out. This may frustrate your PCs, but so be it. If they want a stand-up fight, they will need to work harder for it.

* Monsters that retreat may try to ambush the PCs later. They know the dungeon better, so they should know where the best choke points are. They should know about traps and terrain features that they can use against the PCs. Smart monsters will attack the PCs when they are at a disadvantage: resting for the night, just after a tough fight, walking back through a "safe" room they cleared earlier, etc.

* Terrain features. Smart monsters will put their lairs in terrain that favors them or puts their opponents at a disadvantage. Melee monsters will use fog, smoke, or cover to block LOS, use short corridors with lots of turns to make sure archers can't get a decent shot, etc. Ranged monsters will want large open spaces, "pillbox" defenses that get them up high and offer lots of cover, and difficult terrain between them and their targets so the PCs have trouble closing the distance. Look for combinations of terrain and creature abilities that put the PCs at a disadvantage: flying/climbing creatures that cover the floor of their lair with mud that slows down attackers, creatures with icewalking cover their lairs with slippery floors, creatures with poison immunity put in poisonous plants or vermin that can inconvenience attackers, etc.

* More terrain features: put in some features that can significantly change the battlefield: crumbling pillars that can be toppled onto the PCs, collapsing ceilings, hornet nests that can be attacked, weak dams that can release a lot of water, sweeping a PC down a hallway or flood a portion of the battlefield. This one is really cheap: have the monsters coat the floor with flasks of oil. Then drop a torch or throw a flask of alchemist's fire.

* Invisible terrain features. This is a great trick for crossing large pits or caverns. The monsters know which squares are safe to walk on and which ones aren't. Likewise, invisible pillars/blocks. Oops, I guess you can't charge through that square!

* For each room/lair, plan out exactly what the monsters will do for the first three rounds of combat. The monsters are defending their home, which presumably they have defended before. Round 1: Sentries raise the alarm, then run to the pots of oil at the top of the stairs. Druid shaman casts faerie fire down the hallway. Round 2: Pour the pots of oil down the stairs, archers with flaming arrows move up to the arrow slits, druid shaman casts produce flame. Round 3: animal handler releases the dire bat from his cage, druid shaman casts bull's strength on it.

* Meatbag blocking the door, creating a chokepoint? They tend to have weak Will saves. Try charming (pixies, other fey) or dominating (formians) the meatbag for a few rounds.

* The monsters should know where the best chokepoints are. Put a trap on that square. Concealed pit trap may take the meatbag out for a few rounds, or an automatic arrow trap that attacks every round will discourage someone from standing there.

* Throw in some monsters with battlefield control abilities. Force golems and magma golems (MM5) are *fantastic* for this: push the meatbag off the choke point, or fill that square with magma. Torch bug paste + smoke or obscuring mist. Webs are also lots of fun: entangle effect, plus flammable. Many key battlefield control spells are 1st level and easy to put on a scroll in or in a wand: entangle, grease, ice slick, wall of smoke.

* Illusions. Yes, it looks like a choke point, but is that wall really there? Is that room really empty? Is that really a basilisk at the end of the hallway?

* Use teleport and dimension door effects to get monsters behind the PCs. Escape Panic Button from Complete Scoundrel is good for this: one-shot dimension door up to 30', swift action if the creature isn't wearing any armor.

* Use summons to get creatures behind the PCs. Conjure Ice Beast is great for this, give the ice beasts the cold aura SA for 1d6 cold damage in a 10' burst as a free action. Engulfing Terror (DotU) is also a fantastic way to distract the PCs or break up their formation.

* Harrass the PCs with low-level threats that suck up resources. That annoying arrow trap nicked somebody for only 3 HP... not a big worry, but if they waste a potion of CLW on that, they may need that potion later. Yes, you could clear out that room of kobolds with a single fireball spell, but will you need that spell later for the boss fight? When they start running low on healing or spells, that's when the bigger threats ambush them.

* Turn the tables on the PCs by presenting them with friendly monsters. In fact, the inhabitants are quite happy the PCs have shown up, they need help getting rid of the huge towering pile of death that just moved in next door, something badass enough it could kill a PCs in a couple rounds without breaking a sweat, but with the element of surprise and some help with their new friends...

[nedz]

+1 to the suggestions that you try more interesting setups than kick in the door to a 20'x20' room.

But your monsters could be doing better even without that. AoE's are the classic response, even just a smokestick thrown through the door way would do. The monsters target the tank whilst the rest of the party cannot see any targets. They should then use missile weapons, even just something improvised like thrown rocks. This will force the party to advance into the room, or run away.

[Immabozo]

I'll repeat this one again, have enemies that can crawl on the ceiling and attack from above.