[3.5] Tome of Battle - Warblade Question?

[Alaris]

So, we recently started a new chapter in our campaign (3.5, naturally). We've lost players, but gained a new one (so there's 3 of us now). The new player chose to play a Half-Giant Warblade [4, I think]. Now, our campaigns have never included Tome of Battle before, but the DM waved it off, saying "Sure, go for it."

So, we're 5th level PCs, in a generally Low-Mid-Op Campaign. At least normally. I've never looked over the ToB classes indepth, but I've heard enough from people to understand that they're supposedly "very powerful."

Come first session, I see that "Shiny New Warblade" rolling quite a number of dice for his damage (Something to the tune of 4d6+2d8+Wpn Damage). He often got into the realm of 45-50 damage with his Greatsword. Now, I'm not going to argue that caster's aren't broken; they certainly are.

But should a 4th level Warblade be able to do that... consistently? Several times in the same battle? And with a bow? I don't know what "Manuevers" or "Stances" he's using or what feats he took... but I just want to ask if it's possible. I'm going to bring it up to the DM... because I think the player himself doesn't know 100% what he's doing at this point..

[For extra information: I'm playing a Transmuter, and the other player is a Cleric. The Cleric certainly seems out classed in damage. I continue to do my job of buffing and battlefield control, so it's fine for me. But... now that ToB has been introduced into the game... I worry about Warblades coming my way with 40-50 damage in store. I only have 30 hit points... >.<]

Thanks in advance. ^_^

[Edge of Dreams]

A Warblade should have some number of maneuvers ready at the start of each fight. He should NOT be able to use the same maneuver twice in a row. If he spends a turn only attacking normally with no special maneuvers, he gets all his special maneuvers recharged to use again. So, a Warblade can, at best, use his best trick every other round.

Secondly, he shouldn't be able to do those tricks with a bow unless there's houserules going on. One of the actual major complaints against Tome of Battle is that it has almost zero support for archery builds.

Definitely get the GM to look it over. In fact, I think a good GM should know the mechanics of all his player's builds, even when there's nothing fishy going on at all, simply because it makes him more able to deal with balance, rules questions, and so on.

[Alaris]

A Warblade should have some number of maneuvers ready at the start of each fight. He should NOT be able to use the same maneuver twice in a row. If he spends a turn only attacking normally with no special maneuvers, he gets all his special maneuvers recharged to use again. So, a Warblade can, at best, use his best trick every other round.

Secondly, he shouldn't be able to do those tricks with a bow unless there's houserules going on. One of the actual major complaints against Tome of Battle is that it has almost zero support for archery builds.

Definitely get the GM to look it over. In fact, I think a good GM should know the mechanics of all his player's builds, even when there's nothing fishy going on at all, simply because it makes him more able to deal with balance, rules questions, and so on.

That... helps a little. Yeah, I'm going to have the DM look over it.

So... should the 'combat maneuvers' that are adding dice to damage (I presume) be able to be used concurrently (together?). Again, I don't own the book personally, so I can't exactly look it up with ease.

If so, it's pretty powerful. I mean, it doesn't have a Wizard/Clr/Druid versatility, but being able to churn out 50+ damage every other turn is powerful. Even a Wizard (Non-High-Op) will run out of spells, and turn into a crossbow-user.

[JaronK]

Actually, a lot of Warblade maneuvers work just fine with a bow. Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, and similar all work, and boosts of course work great too (White Raven Tactics works along with shooting, but that isn't quite the same thing). Blood in the Water can be a fine stance for an archer due to volume of fire. But not all maneuvers work that way.

Still, Targeteer Fighter 2/Warblade X is a devastatingly powerful archer if made well. If made cheesy, it can do infinite damage.

JaronK

[Alaris]

*Nod* Well, he was bashing heads in with the Greatsword for roughly 6d6+2d8+Str pretty effectively. But when one of the enemies started to run, he took out a longbow, and shot him for many dice worth of damage (5d6? or 4d6+1d8, either way).

>.> I know, I should be happy we have an 'uber-tank' on our side... but, it's also a matter of him outshining his party members handily. And, naturally, the DM bringing in ToB classes himself, and dealing equivalent damage to us... less-hardy party members.

[Edge of Dreams]

So... should the 'combat maneuvers' that are adding dice to damage (I presume) be able to be used concurrently (together?).

So, there's a distinction between maneuvers that require making an attack, and "boosts", which often only take a swift or move action and apply a buff that lasts for the whole turn. You can't use two different attacking maneuvers at the same time, nor can you use two different Boosts at the same time, but you CAN use a boost then apply the buff while making an attack maneuver.

Also, you will want the DM to make sure the player is only using level-appropriate maneuvers. Just like a low-level caster can't use 9th Level spells, a low-level Warblade can't use 9th Level maneuvers.

[Rubik]

That... helps a little. Yeah, I'm going to have the DM look over it.

So... should the 'combat maneuvers' that are adding dice to damage (I presume) be able to be used concurrently (together?). Again, I don't own the book personally, so I can't exactly look it up with ease.

If so, it's pretty powerful. I mean, it doesn't have a Wizard/Clr/Druid versatility, but being able to churn out 50+ damage every other turn is powerful. Even a Wizard (Non-High-Op) will run out of spells, and turn into a crossbow-user.There are three basic types of maneuvers in Tome of Battle (with a few outliers that don't fit in with any of them): strikes, with usually take a standard or full-round action; boosts, which are usually swift actions and act as buffs for a round; and stances, which act as passive buffs and are always on, and require a swift action to change.

It IS possible to get awesome damage using those three concurrently, but as stated above a warblade can't use the same strike or boost more than once without refreshing, which takes an action to perform.

He is a half-giant, however, which means he's psionic, and there're feats which add to damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon) and psionic materials which do the same (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm) (and they stack). Depending on what his feats and items are, he can stack quite a bit of damage on top of those maneuvers of his. Make sure the DM looks for those, as well.

[tyckspoon]

That's a bit high for 4th level, but not out of possibility- he'll have a base damage range of 3d6 + ~6-8 (Large-sized Greatsword wielded 2-handed with an 18 or 20 Strength), which is about 16 points base damage. He might be in Punishing Stance, which is good for another d6, putting him in the region of 20 damage a hit without using any other abilities, with enough variance to get up a bit over 30 on a good roll. He can Power Attack for up to another 8 points, and although if he's doing that on *every* attack his hit-rate will suffer, he has access to Emerald Razor to make a touch attack that will probably hit. He's psionic, so he may also be using the Psionic Weapon feat, which is good for 2d6 more. If he has his maneuvers selected for straight damage, he might have Mountain Hammer and Tactical Strike as his 2 2nd-level maneuvers known, which both add 2d6 more..

So if he uses everything on one attack, he'll be throwing 8d6 (3d6 sword + 1d6 Punishing Stance + 2d6 Psionic Weapon + 2d6 Strike.) That'll average 28 and has a maximum of 48; adding Strength to that and minor Power Attacking will put him into the upper 30s-near 40 area pretty reliably... but note that's not a repeatable strike. Using the Psionic Weapon feat requires burning Psionic Focus, which is a Full-Round action to regain (ie, he's not doing anything else that round, which means it's a once-per-fight deal), and he can't use the same maneuver again until he spends a round without using any maneuvers to recover them...

Also most maneuvers do not work with ranged weapons and Psionic Weapon specifically is melee weapons only (there's another version of the feat for ranged weapons), so if he's doing the same kind of damage with a bow than there might be something incorrect going on. Also if he's doing that kind of damage in back-to-back hits, since he's probably using single-usage resources to do that kind of damage and should need a couple rounds of recovery before he can line it all up again.

[Alaris]

There are three basic types of maneuvers in Tome of Battle (with a few outliers that don't fit in with any of them): strikes, with usually take a standard or full-round action; boosts, which are usually swift actions and act as buffs for a round; and stances, which act as passive buffs and are always on, and require a swift action to change.

It IS possible to get awesome damage using those three concurrently, but as stated above a warblade can't use the same strike or boost more than once without refreshing, which takes an action to perform.

He is a half-giant, however, which means he's psionic, and there're feats which add to damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon) and psionic materials which do the same (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm) (and they stack). Depending on what his feats and items are, he can stack quite a bit of damage on top of those maneuvers of his. Make sure the DM looks for those, as well.

Yeah... you are very right. His character was relatively wealthy (due to history), so for all I know, he's got a psionic weapon (or the feat, Psionic Weapon), and whatnot, that is adding so much to his damage.

Well, I guess I'll simply talk to the DM. And take a look at Tome of Battle when I'm at the DMs house next. See if I can't add up all of his nifty abilities.

@TykSpoon: Yes. Very yes. I recall "Punishing Stance" and "Mountain Hammer" as things he mentioned during combat, so I'm guessing they are part of it all. Looks like, as much as it terrifies me, he might actually be a perfectly legal, legit build. >.> Still, I want to know for certain...

[Slipperychicken]

Which maneuvers are he using? 4d6+2d8 before a weapon sounds a bit high for 4th level. He may have read the maneuver prerequisites wrong; Warblade 4 refers to maneuver level (it's like spell level for maneuvers). That uses a separate table on ToB pg 39. At this point, he can only use 2nd level maneuvers.

Definitely check his math, and see if you can post it here for us to check it too. I once built a guy who was cranking out 50+ damage a round at level 5, so it's definitely possible for this to be legit.

[Alaris]

Which maneuvers are he using? 4d6+2d8 before a weapon sounds a bit high for 4th level. He may have read the maneuver prerequisites wrong; Warblade 4 refers to maneuver level (it's like spell level for maneuvers). That uses a separate table on ToB pg 39. At this point, he can only use 2nd level maneuvers.

Definitely check his math, and see if you can post it here for us to check it too. I once built a guy who was cranking out 50+ damage a round at level 5, so it's definitely possible for this to be legit.

That's the issue; I don't know what maneuvers he is using. Punishing stance is a stance he is using, I'm almost certain. I recall him saying he used it in battle. Nonetheless, I'm having the GM check it out. I'm not going to ask to see another PCs character sheet, but the GM can always do so. ^_^

[Andreaz]

It does look like he's doing something wrong. He may be using maneuvers higher than his level (the levels in the descriptions are formatted exactly like spells, wiz 5 is a 5th level spell. Warblade 4 is a 4th level maneuver, available at level 7 minimum).
Being a big guy he should indeed be doing large damage, but not that much. At level 4 maneuvers alone can only account for about half that, and no maneuver can be used twice in a row.

Punishing stance is fine, and a staple of low level warblades. He should be easier to hit than the broad side of a barn though.

[Spuddles]

To be fair to ToB, the psionic rules are adding at least as much damage to the build. Powerful build, deep crystal weapon, and psionic weapon adds like 5 more damage dice.

It isn't exactly balanced at low levels, for sure. I would be double checking his action usage. He shouldn't be able to pump that much out every round, I don't think.

[Morph Bark]

When it comes to melee, Tome of Battle classes are ahead of others before level 6. Considering arcane casters are at their weakest, relative to other classes, at the very early levels (1-2, maybe 1-4), it's logical you feel a little weird with this new character around.

However, 90% of the maneuvers and stances only work with melee attacks specifically, and maneuvers cannot be combined together (but you can have a stance active at all times and use a maneuver that stacks with anything the stance gives, unless otherwise specified). The warblade itself also doesn't give proficiency with martial ranged weapons. If he used a longbow, he needs to have spent a feat on it or suffer the non-proficiency attack penalty of -4.

You say he's a half-giant, so he's got LA+1. Are the rest of you level 5 characters with normal races? If you and the cleric play characters of level 4 without LA, that also puts him a little ahead of you (though if you play with LA buy-off, he can get rid of it at level 3).

It's certainly possible for him to have psionic feats that grant him damage boosts, but these require him to get rid of his psionic focus (so he needs to have that first, too), which takes a... move or full-round action to acquire, I'm not sure right now. A warblade can recover his maneuvers by taking a swift action to do nothing, followed by doing nothing or making an attack or full attack. It's likely he has multiple damage-boosting maneuvers, but if so, that'll be all he has, as a warblade doesn't get that many (compared to the other ToB classes, iirc). His stance will be the only thing absolutely consistent though, but Punishing Stance does bring down his AC in turn for that +1d6 damage boost.


That's the issue; I don't know what maneuvers he is using. Punishing stance is a stance he is using, I'm almost certain. I recall him saying he used it in battle. Nonetheless, I'm having the GM check it out. I'm not going to ask to see another PCs character sheet, but the GM can always do so. ^_^

A very good idea. Letting the GM handle it is generally best. :smallsmile:

[Andreaz]

It's certainly possible for him to have psionic feats that grant him damage boosts, but these require him to get rid of his psionic focus (so he needs to have that first, too), which takes a... move or full-round action to acquire, I'm not sure right now. Move with a feat, full-round without.
A very good idea. Letting the GM handle it is generally best. :smallsmile:That said, I'm a bit worried. The GM did waive the permit without really thinking about it. A wrong word and he'd call ToB overpowered and ban it, wasting yet another gaming table's opportunity to it.

[Ketiara]

With ToB any build is equal to an optimised meleer not using ToB... An optimised ToB build which this sounds like will outshine almost any melee build that's not using ToB.

Have him print out maneuvre cards so he can keep track of manoeuvres and so that you guys can see what he is doing .

[Ashtagon]

If we saw his build, we could examine it to see if it is legal.

At present, all we can say is, with Theoretical Optimisation, anything is possible.

[Andreaz]

With ToB any build is equal to an optimised meleer not using ToB... An optimised ToB build which this sounds like will outshine almost any melee build that's not using ToB.The precise statement is: ToB has an excellent baseline, and takes active effort to be "weak". ToB, however, doesn't have an extremely high power ceiling. Melee builds that don't use ToB can and often reach heights of damage output and battlefield control the Adepts can only dream of.

Good evidences of this are Uberchargers (Hoods/Jumplomancers), Bulldozers(dungeoncrashing shield fun) and Horizon Trippers.

[Draz74]

But should a 4th level Warblade be able to do that...
Yes, probably.

That being said ... I'm having trouble thinking of where the d8's of bonus damage might be coming from. Psionic Weapon, Psionic Shot, Deep Crystal weapons, Punishing Stance, Mountain Hammer, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Rabid Wolf Strike, and Claw at the Moon all add d6's. And Powerful Build shouldn't change any of these bonus damage sources. :smallconfused:

*IDEA* Wait, are you sure the d8's were bonus damage? Could they have been the base weapon damage? Because a Large greatsword (wieldable by a Goliath) should deal 2d8 damage.


consistently?
If by "consistently" you mean "every round," then NO, definitely not.


Several times in the same battle?
Oh, sure, if it's a long battle. And he burns a few daily resources.


And with a bow?
No, not at ECL 5.


But... now that ToB has been introduced into the game... I worry about Warblades coming my way with 40-50 damage in store. I only have 30 hit points... >.<]
Good ... squishy Wizards should feel endangered when equal-level melee gets to take a swing at them. :smalltongue:


Actually, a lot of Warblade maneuvers work just fine with a bow. Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, and similar all work,
You just named pretty much all the Warblade maneuvers that work with ranged weapons. And none of them should be available at ECL 5.


So, there's a distinction between maneuvers that require making an attack, and "boosts", which often only take a swift or move action and apply a buff that lasts for the whole turn. You can't use two different attacking maneuvers at the same time, nor can you use two different Boosts at the same time, but you CAN use a boost then apply the buff while making an attack maneuver.
While this is true and important information ... I'm having trouble thinking of low-level Warblade boosts that add d6's of bonus damage. I think it's more likely the damage is coming from psionic tricks.

Let's see.

We're trying to explain 2d8+6d6, right? Well, 2d8 is probably coming from his Large greatsword (which he can wield because he should be one level lower than the party, due to being a Goliath). +1d6 is coming from Punishing Stance (which should mean his AC is taking a -2 penalty -- make sure this is being enforced. It's still an amazing stance at low levels). +2d6 is coming from Mountain Hammer (or Claw at the Moon, or Rabid Wolf Strike ...). That leaves +3d6 unaccounted for.

+2d6 of that could easily be coming from the Psionic Weapon feat (which can only be used once before he should need to take a full-round action to recover it -- he's not high-enough level to have the feat that recovers it as a move action). Or the +2d6 could be coming from a Deep Crystal weapon (which burns 2 PP with each use ... and if he doesn't have any levels in psionic classes, he shouldn't have enough PP for this unless he spent a feat on it, which would still only allow him to do it 1/day). Yeah, probably not. It's probably the Psionic Weapon feat.

I can't think of an easy source that would be granting the last +1d6. (Sapphire Nightmare Blade is possible, but shouldn't be compatible with other Strikes like Mountain Hammer.) Is it possible he was just doing 2d8+5d6+1.5xSTR?

Even so ... he should only be able to do that kind of damage repeatedly if he takes a round in between to recover (or two rounds, sometimes, when he runs out of Level 2 Strikes. Although one of his recovery rounds could still include a normal 2d8-damage attack). And he shouldn't be able to do great damage with a bow. (Unless he took the Psionic Shot feat, in addition to the Psionic Weapon feat.)


There are three basic types of maneuvers in Tome of Battle (with a few outliers that don't fit in with any of them): strikes, with usually take a standard or full-round action; boosts, which are usually swift actions and act as buffs for a round; and stances, which act as passive buffs and are always on, and require a swift action to change.
Actually, there's a fourth basic type of maneuver, but it's kinda irrelevant to the current discussion.

Also, it's important to note that normally only one Stance can be active at a time.


The warblade itself also doesn't give proficiency with martial ranged weapons. If he used a longbow, he needs to have spent a feat on it or suffer the non-proficiency attack penalty of -4.
Haha, good point.


Move with a feat, full-round without.That said, I'm a bit worried. The GM did waive the permit without really thinking about it. A wrong word and he'd call ToB overpowered and ban it, wasting yet another gaming table's opportunity to it.
Yeah. :smallfrown:

[Deadline]

*IDEA* Wait, are you sure the d8's were bonus damage? Could they have been the base weapon damage? Because a Large greatsword (wieldable by a Goliath) should deal 2d8 damage.

According the weapon size chart in the PHB, 2D6 progresses to 3D6, not 2D8.

Going from the PHB and the sizing chart, the base damage for his weapons is:

Large Greatsword: 3D6
Large Longbow: 2D6

[Alaris]

The DM has promised to look over it, and I am quite appreciative of this. Hopefully we'll get it sorted out.

I mean, there are several things, at the end of the day, that concern me about it.



Good ... squishy Wizards should feel endangered when equal-level melee gets to take a swing at them. :smalltongue:


Indeed, I imagine I should. But should the 5th Level ECL 5 Cleric, who has only a few more hit points than me? Or the 5th level fighter (if we had one), who could lose most of his hit points in one hit? A hit that can apparently be reproduced every round? I'd think not!


That said, I'm a bit worried. The GM did waive the permit without really thinking about it. A wrong word and he'd call ToB overpowered and ban it, wasting yet another gaming table's opportunity to it.

Well... honestly, I'm not liking what I see (if this is legit). I mean, why would I play a Fighter? Ranger? Or even a Paladin? When I could play a Warblade, Swordsage or Crusader? Near as I can tell, there's no reason to play the other classes, with their low damage output and limited flexibility comparatively.

Don't get me wrong, near as I can tell, a Warblade is good at smashing. And that's 'about it.' But if there's even one ToB class in the party, then it's going to likely outshine anyone playing PHB non-caster class. >.< Again, this is all presuming he's doing things by the book to some degree.


If we saw his build, we could examine it to see if it is legal.

At present, all we can say is, with Theoretical Optimisation, anything is possible.

All I'm really looking for is theoretical optimization at this point. I'm nice enough to not ask to see his build without showing mine. And it's the kind of game where we kind of learn each other's capabilities through roleplay and game, rather than telling one another how we built our characters beforehand (beyond "I'm playing a Cleric" or "I'm playing a Wizard!").

I am simply appreciative of people helping me figure out 'if' it is possible to do this.

On another note, I've seen him 'recover maneuvers' before. But the only reason he does so is because he has some feat/ability/something that allows him to regain hit points when he does so. Because... I've seen him do the Xd6+2d8+Str several times in a row before recovering. (We've only had 2 sessions so far, but we had a long enough combat for it).


The warblade itself also doesn't give proficiency with martial ranged weapons. If he used a longbow, he needs to have spent a feat on it or suffer the non-proficiency attack penalty of -4.

You say he's a half-giant, so he's got LA+1. Are the rest of you level 5 characters with normal races? If you and the cleric play characters of level 4 without LA, that also puts him a little ahead of you (though if you play with LA buy-off, he can get rid of it at level 3).


Really? I... always assumed it basically had the fighter proficiency (maybe minus tower shields) of Simple/Martial, Light-Heavy Armor, and Shields. Maybe it was a shortbow then... I don't remember. I know it has either a +4 Str or +5 Str (Composite) thing.

The party as a whole is ECL 5. I play a Wizard/Cleric (into Theurge later), my friend plays a Drow Cleric, and the other is the Warblade (with +1 LA). And I shudder at the thought of the Warblade not having his level adjustment.

Admittedly, from that setup, it's pretty obvious that my friend (Cleric player) and I are not heavy optimizers. So having something like Warblade thrown into to tear things apart with absurd efficiency is... just a tad scary to say the least.

Nonetheless, thank you for your responses thus far, I appreciate them. ^_^

[Edge of Dreams]

Well... honestly, I'm not liking what I see (if this is legit). I mean, why would I play a Fighter? Ranger? Or even a Paladin? When I could play a Warblade, Swordsage or Crusader? Near as I can tell, there's no reason to play the other classes, with their low damage output and limited flexibility comparatively.

It's pretty commonly accepted around here that if you're going to have ToB in your game, you should probably replace all Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Monks, and similar classes with Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, whichever is most similar in flavor. That, or allow certain classes to drop certain class features to get ToB maneuvers (e.g. a Ranger may give up spells in order to get maneuvers instead). This really levels the playing field among melee classes.



Admittedly, from that setup, it's pretty obvious that my friend (Cleric player) and I are not heavy optimizers. So having something like Warblade thrown into to tear things apart with absurd efficiency is... just a tad scary to say the least.

It sounds like you may have an issue with this player out-optimizing you even if his build is perfectly legal, or even if he wasn't using ToB. If this is making it harder for you to have fun, you need to address this with your group and GM through conversation. A player who is setting out to break the game can do it with just about any class if he's sufficiently determined, so leave the exact class and source-book out of this discussion. Focus on talking about what makes the game fun for everyone, and what needs to be done. If this player is such a good optimizer, maybe he can help the others tweak their builds, for example.

[Alaris]

It's pretty commonly accepted around here that if you're going to have ToB in your game, you should probably replace all Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Monks, and similar classes with Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, whichever is most similar in flavor. That, or allow certain classes to drop certain class features to get ToB maneuvers (e.g. a Ranger may give up spells in order to get maneuvers instead). This really levels the playing field among melee classes.

It sounds like you may have an issue with this player out-optimizing you even if his build is perfectly legal, or even if he wasn't using ToB. If this is making it harder for you to have fun, you need to address this with your group and GM through conversation. A player who is setting out to break the game can do it with just about any class if he's sufficiently determined, so leave the exact class and source-book out of this discussion. Focus on talking about what makes the game fun for everyone, and what needs to be done. If this player is such a good optimizer, maybe he can help the others tweak their builds, for example.

Urk... well then... I may (or may not) tolerate the Warblade for now, depending on how things go, and ask for us to not use Tome of Battle in the current campaign (after he's done playing the Warblade. I won't ask him to stop playing his character, that would be rude). My opinion of course, and it's up to the DM if he says yes or no; I just don't like the idea of straight up 'replacing' several base classes, or features of said classes, with Tome of Battle stuff.

And yes, to a degree it's optimization. Everyone in the party should be given a chance to shine. My friend and I don't optimize much (hell, I'm going into Mystic Theurge, so you know that's true). The biggest optimization we've had was a former player who was Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer, who got a 9th level Divination spell onto his list when he could only cast 6th level spells. Wasn't even that powerful of one.

All of that aside, I want to get the Warblade figured out, so we know if he's doing it legitimately. If he's not, and he can't deal 50+ damage every round, then I'd be more okay with it. I'd still be leery on ToB (as I always have been), but I'd manage the character, since I trust the DM to put us in situations where we can all shine.

[pffh]

Urk... well then... I may (or may not) tolerate the Warblade for now, depending on how things go, and ask for us to not use Tome of Battle in the current campaign (after he's done playing the Warblade. I won't ask him to stop playing his character, that would be rude). My opinion of course, and it's up to the DM if he says yes or no; I just don't like the idea of straight up 'replacing' several base classes, or features of said classes, with Tome of Battle stuff.

The problem is that as written the paladin, fighter and monk don't function properly in the roles they are supposed to fill. The ToB classes are kind of "sorry we messed up with the melee classes in the PHB here are some classes that actually work".

[Morph Bark]

Really? I... always assumed it basically had the fighter proficiency (maybe minus tower shields) of Simple/Martial, Light-Heavy Armor, and Shields. Maybe it was a shortbow then... I don't remember. I know it has either a +4 Str or +5 Str (Composite) thing.

A lot of people tend to assume the Warblade has Fighter-like proficiencies, but it doesn't have proficiency with martial ranged weapons (which also includes shortbows, for that matter), heavy armor or tower shields.

Crossbows are the only ranged weapons (aside from thrown weapons) that the Warblade is naturally proficient with.

[Alaris]

A lot of people tend to assume the Warblade has Fighter-like proficiencies, but it doesn't have proficiency with martial ranged weapons (which also includes shortbows, for that matter), heavy armor or tower shields.

Crossbows are the only ranged weapons (aside from thrown weapons) that the Warblade is naturally proficient with.

Huh, well then either he presumed as such as well, or he soaked a feat for proficiency. Because it was either a Longbow or a Shortbow, I know that much.


The problem is that as written the paladin, fighter and monk don't function properly in the roles they are supposed to fill. The ToB classes are kind of "sorry we messed up with the melee classes in the PHB here are some classes that actually work".

Well, in low-optimization, they aren't that bad actually. Especially when we have 'generally' high-stats (so MAD isn't much of an issue).

Put simply, the sudden jump in power for this game has put me a little off-kilter, and I want to know if it's legit. >.>

[Morbis Meh]

Another consideration that I am surprised no one has brought to the table: Is this character charging? If so then you can account for more damage due to the charge with feats (powerful charge) or item enchantments (valourous)...

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is that as written the paladin, fighter and monk don't function properly in the roles they are supposed to fill. The ToB classes are kind of "sorry we messed up with the melee classes in the PHB here are some classes that actually work".

Agreed!

Factotum or Psychic Rogue is Rogue v.2.0
Crusader is Paladin v.2.0 and Knight V.2.0
Warblade is Fighter v.2.0
Swordsage is Ninja v.2.0
Duskblade is Hexblade v.2.0
Unarmed Swordsage is Monk v.2.0

This isn't unique to ToB...

[Razgriez]

Actually Morph, they aren't even proficient with Simple Ranged weapons. For Warblades, it's all about throwing melee weapons, eating the non-proficiency penalties, multi-classing for an expanded Armory, or becoming a Bloodstorm blade. Sword sages are the ones who have proficiency with Simple, but not Martial, ranged weapon

and Pffh basically sums it up rather well. to expand further on that, let me sum up the three classes intended rolls

Crusaders let's you play as a proper "Tankadin"/Knight or an even better melee Paladin compared to the real deal (though you get fewer smites, that aren't alignment restricted, and don't suffer as severe restrictions on Alignment and actions. And unlike Paladins, there is no code that says you won't be welcomed back into the Crusader club if you go off to train in another style to help supplement your heathen slaying abilities, unless using approved PrCs) Though their Healing and "Summon the cool horse from the sky" abilities suffer a bit (One relies solely on Maneuvers and careful management of their Delay Damage pool for damage mitigation, and the other is just non-existent for Crusaders).

Swordsages are the replacements for Monks. They trade away that mess of slow growth abilities, for a large pile of useful maneuvers, and actually have some ranged options! (Includes options such as Breathing fire like a dragon, Running around leaving a trail of fire, grabbing an enemy and then throwing them as a Line AoE projectile, or just plain Nova Bombing the entire area with fire, at their highest levels). They actually have Debuff strikes that are also something to really fear due to how useful they are, and the fact that they actually have a DC up high enough as an actual risk to foes.

Warblades, are like medium armored Fighter/Barbarian, combined with bits of Rogue, (The, "I'm going to strike for massive damage once I'm in proper positioning", bit actually). Their whole gimmick is "How hard can I hit you with my weapon, and for how many times?" (The answer to those are: "Really hard, and a lot actually"). They have, initially at least, very poor ranged abilities (but as mentioned above, this can also be solved by becoming a Bloodstorm Blade, and learning how to ricochet a sword off of so many foes, that it would make warrior princesses' green with envy.)

[Alaris]

Yeah... well, you guys are making it pretty clear that ToB is definitely not for me. (or at least, not for my campaign. The campaign I play in...well, that's up to the DM). Better to get that known now, before I start my own campaign again, right?

@GavvinFox: Well... some arguments for that. Factotum is it's own class; in away, it is a jack-of-all-trades I believe. Not a rogue 2.0. Rogue is a solid class in it's own right (I've played one!)

Duskblade is also it's own class. Not some "improved Hexblade." It might be strictly better than Hexblade (haven't looked, don't know much about Hexblade), but it is NOT something created to be the 'better' version of it.

Yeah... so umm... yeah. The vibe I get is... if you bring ToB into the game, you modeswell just put Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Ninja out of the game. Am I right? There'd be no reason to play them, they're 'replaced.' Right?

[Edge of Dreams]

Yeah... so umm... yeah. The vibe I get is... if you bring ToB into the game, you modeswell just put Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Ninja out of the game. Am I right? There'd be no reason to play them, they're 'replaced.' Right?

Fighter is still good for a 2-level dip for proficiencies and feats. Ranger and Paladin still have a niche for some of their special abilities. Monk and Ninja were always pretty weak classes anyway.

Note that if you put ToB in the game, any class can take Feats to get Maneuvers, and there are magic items that grant maneuvers as well. You could play a game where no one uses the ToB classes, but the Fighter, Ranger, and Paladin each use a feat or two to pick up some ToB tricks.

[Alaris]

Fighter is still good for a 2-level dip for proficiencies and feats. Ranger and Paladin still have a niche for some of their special abilities. Monk and Ninja were always pretty weak classes anyway.

Note that if you put ToB in the game, any class can take Feats to get Maneuvers, and there are magic items that grant maneuvers as well. You could play a game where no one uses the ToB classes, but the Fighter, Ranger, and Paladin each use a feat or two to pick up some ToB tricks.

Hmm, now a maneuver or stance 'here and there' wouldn't necessarily be 'too bad' I imagine. But as near as I can tell, Warblade/SwordSage/Crusader are built around Maneuevers, and get a lot of them!

So... it might be more feasible (from my point of view) to allow the feats to pick up some tricks, if people are so inclined.

'Again,' so people don't shout about Tiers, this is a low-mid-op game. You won't see Wizards playing "God Batman." Or "Clericzilla" (?). So a Fighter or Paladin can get as much glory and usefulness in the fight as a Wizard or a Cleric. ^_^

Thanks Edge!

[Morph Bark]

Actually Morph, they aren't even proficient with Simple Ranged weapons.

That's entirely up to how strenuously you're willing to interpret the wording problems.

[Razgriez]

Hmm, now a maneuver or stance 'here and there' wouldn't necessarily be 'too bad' I imagine. But as near as I can tell, Warblade/SwordSage/Crusader are built around Maneuevers, and get a lot of them!

So... it might be more feasible (from my point of view) to allow the feats to pick up some tricks, if people are so inclined.

'Again,' so people don't shout about Tiers, this is a low-mid-op game. You won't see Wizards playing "God Batman." Or "Clericzilla" (?). So a Fighter or Paladin can get as much glory and usefulness in the fight as a Wizard or a Cleric. ^_^

Thanks Edge!

Cool. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that style of play and is one I generally favor my self :smallsmile:. Hopefully the info we've provided can help you and your game group solve this issue out in a way that everyone can agree on.

@Morph Bark: Eh? There's a wording problem with it all? I just kinda took it to be that way, given the different ways they typed out the proficiencies between Swordsage and Warblade. I'm quite curious now to learn more info on this problem, since I'm getting ready to play as a Warblade in a campaign my self.

[Yuki Akuma]

...All I hear when I read this thread is "someone is better at optimising than me, I'm sure he's cheating".

[Alaris]

...All I hear when I read this thread is "someone is better at optimising than me, I'm sure he's cheating".

Really? That's a rude way of putting it.

No. That's not what I was getting at. But I'll lay it out special, just for you.

Before this new "chapter" in our D&D campaign, we had 3 others. And at most, we are mid-optimization. Likely low, compared to a lot of groups. We've had Mystic Theurges, Evocation Wizards, and *GASP* Monks! I know, it's a foreign concept to many, but stay with me. We'll get through this together.

Everyone was fine with this, we all had a lot of fun. Ultimately, many people left the game at different times, and we recently started the new chapter. We brought in a new player, one none of us knew too indepth. He wanted to play a Class from a book we all had never used (and never wanted to really use, from what we had heard).

So, we're used to Fighters and Paladins with their Power Attack, Rangers with their bows, and Evokers with their fireballs. So...

First combat of this new chapter, and the new player rolls up on the enemy with 52 damage! Now don't get me wrong; outside of ToB, you can certainly get 52 damage in a single strike. Chances are, however, you're soaking up valuable resources to do so. Spell slots. Items. Feat uses. Something.

But this guy... see, he rolled against this monster, 6-8d6, 2d8 and then strength damage ontop of it. And when the monster got back up, he did it again. With no break inbetween. No resources seen expended. I brushed it off for that combat; maybe it's like a Wizard, and he can do it a few times per day.

So... later that day, we had a much larger combat... in which he performed the same technique, three times! And then a fourth time, he drew a Longbow (or Shortbow), and downed a fleeing enemy with several extra D6s. All without expended resources! Without resting!

So, given that we aren't optimizing here, and aren't doing things like this, how are we to react when we see the new player is apparently capable of a #*&@ ton of damage, every round, with Blade or Bow? I'm not--- well, scratch that.

Part of me is complaining about the optimization I guess. I am not a fan of Tome of Battle as it stands, at least from what I've seen in game. But most of this thread was ACTUALLY (read: not what you perceived it as) about trying to figure out if what he was doing is actually legit. Given free roam of feats and items (Barring Magic Item Compendium, Dragon Magazine), could he deal this much damage, with these weapons, every round? With no rest?

The consensus seems to be no. At least not without taking a round in between. People have recommended I talk to the GM, which I have done, and he's investigating.

So, ultimately, I guess yes, PART of it was me complaining. Was not truly intentional. But I was looking for advice, not snide comments about what you think the thread is about. So thank you for your 'wise' and 'gracious' contribution to my thread. I hope you have a nice day. :smallsmile:

@Everyone Else: Thank you, honestly, for your contribution to my thread. I deeply appreciate it. ^_^

[Draz74]

According the weapon size chart in the PHB, 2D6 progresses to 3D6, not 2D8.
Oh. Whoops. Any other theories on where the d8's might be coming from, then?


Indeed, I imagine I should. But should the 5th Level ECL 5 Cleric, who has only a few more hit points than me? Or the 5th level fighter (if we had one), who could lose most of his hit points in one hit? A hit that can apparently be reproduced every round? I'd think not!
No, I was just being snarky. (On the other hand, if the Cleric and Fighter don't have many more HP than the Wizard, that's kind of sad regardless of whether they're getting bumped off in one round or not.)


But if there's even one ToB class in the party, then it's going to likely outshine anyone playing PHB non-caster class. >.<
This ... is exactly the kind of discussion that the Tier System was invented for.

So yes, at most levels of optimization, the Tome of Battle classes (T3) are going to outclass the PHB non-casters (T4, T5, T5, T5, T4, T4) overall. The exception is when more optimization is used to bring e.g. Paladin or Fighter or Barbarian up a few notches in power. But yes, in games where no one really bothers to optimize at all, Tome of Battle classes are relatively good "out of the box" compared to noncasters (or even casters that happen to pick bad spells/Animal Companions/etc.).


Again, this is all presuming he's doing things by the book to some degree.
My guess is "to some degree, yes, but not completely."


The party as a whole is ECL 5. I play a Wizard/Cleric (into Theurge later), my friend plays a Drow Cleric, and the other is the Warblade (with +1 LA). And I shudder at the thought of the Warblade not having his level adjustment.
OK ... multiclassed casters and drow are really low optimization standards to compare with. Yes, a Goliath Warblade is going to be a much stronger character than those.


Yeah... so umm... yeah. The vibe I get is... if you bring ToB into the game, you modeswell just put Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Ninja out of the game. Am I right? There'd be no reason to play them, they're 'replaced.' Right?

Actually, part of the purpose of optimization is to "rescue" these classes and give them niches again -- at least, in multiclassed builds. (Except Ninja. Ninja really is pretty much completely outclassed by Swordsage. But then, Ninja is somewhat outclassed by Rogue or Factotum, too.)

Fighters are a great component of many multiclass melee builds, especially with Dungeoncrasher. (Don't overlook their broader-than-anyone array of proficiencies, for one thing, which makes them very nice for Warblade dips!)

Rangers can be a powerful single-class with some cheesy Variants, or a powerful dip for a lot of different builds, or can be combined with Scout and Swift Hunter for a powerful mostly-Ranger multiclass build.

Paladins can actually be made almost as powerful as Crusaders without even multiclassing, if you know the right tricks to use. Crusaders don't get spellcasting or CHA to all saves!

Monks are a good dip in a number of multiclass builds, especially psionic melee characters with Tashalatora.

So yes, Tome of Battle classes are a bit more powerful than these classes overall, especially if optimization isn't heavy. But that hardly makes these other classes "replaced."

[Alaris]

Well, after a discussion with the player in question, we determined he was adding incorrectly, and had dice he shouldn't have in the mix. Also didn't understand the "Refreshing Maneuvers" thing completely. Or that certain things didn't apply to bows.

So, in the end, what he is doing now:

Large Longsword (2d8) + Punishing Stance (1d6) + Bonecrusher (4d6) + Psionic Weapon (2d6). For a total of (2d8+7d6+Str)

He also now understands that he has to spend the next round refreshing to do it again (presuming he has Psionic Meditation).

So all in all, it appears to have worked out. Still not a fan of ToB, but it is now certainly tolerable comparatively.

Again, thank you all for your assistance. ^_^

[Eldest]

Well, after a discussion with the player in question, we determined he was adding incorrectly, and had dice he shouldn't have in the mix. Also didn't understand the "Refreshing Maneuvers" thing completely. Or that certain things didn't apply to bows.

So, in the end, what he is doing now:

Large Longsword (2d8) + Punishing Stance (1d6) + Bonecrusher (4d6) + Psionic Weapon (2d6). For a total of (2d8+7d6+Str)

He also now understands that he has to spend the next round refreshing to do it again (presuming he has Psionic Meditation).

So all in all, it appears to have worked out. Still not a fan of ToB, but it is now certainly tolerable comparatively.

Again, thank you all for your assistance. ^_^

And if he doesn't have Psionic Meditation then it would take him two rounds to pull this off, one of a full round meditation, one of move-regular attack.

[Draz74]

Sweet, I'm glad it's working out. I hope you'll still give Tome of Battle a try sometime yourself -- even if it's just the feat-based maneuver uses. :smallsmile:


He also now understands that he has to spend the next round refreshing to do it again (presuming he has Psionic Meditation).

Note that, if he has Psionic Meditation, he can even make one, non-maneuver, melee attack during the round when he "recharges." (Move action: recover psionic focus. Swift action: trigger recharge of maneuvers. Standard action: make a single non-maneuver attack to finish recovering maneuvers.)

[Alaris]

Sweet, I'm glad it's working out. I hope you'll still give Tome of Battle a try sometime yourself -- even if it's just the feat-based maneuver uses. :smallsmile:

Note that, if he has Psionic Meditation, he can even make one, non-maneuver, melee attack during the round when he "recharges." (Move action: recover psionic focus. Swift action: trigger recharge of maneuvers. Standard action: make a single non-maneuver attack to finish recovering maneuvers.)

Yeah, that's what I meant mostly. He couldn't do his full 'uber-attack' next turn. Even that makes it bearable.

And I'm not saying I won't give it a try. I'm very tentative for my own campaign. But I will observe how it works in the game I'm actually plating in.

Thanks Again!

[Sucrose]

Well, after a discussion with the player in question, we determined he was adding incorrectly, and had dice he shouldn't have in the mix. Also didn't understand the "Refreshing Maneuvers" thing completely. Or that certain things didn't apply to bows.

So, in the end, what he is doing now:

Large Longsword (2d8) + Punishing Stance (1d6) + Bonecrusher (4d6) + Psionic Weapon (2d6). For a total of (2d8+7d6+Str)

He also now understands that he has to spend the next round refreshing to do it again (presuming he has Psionic Meditation).

So all in all, it appears to have worked out. Still not a fan of ToB, but it is now certainly tolerable comparatively.

Again, thank you all for your assistance. ^_^

One more thing that you may wish to bear in mind: you said that he's a 4th level Warblade. That only gives him access to maneuvers up to 2nd level (it's similar to spell levels in casters). Bonecrusher is a 3rd level maneuver. He shouldn't have access to it until next level. The best damage for 2nd level standard action maneuvers is Mountain Hammer or Rabid Wolf Strike, at 2d6 and ignoring DR or hardness, and 2d6 and +4 to hit (at a cost of -4 AC), respectively.

I'm sorry to hear that you aren't a fan of ToB. In low-op environments, initiators often are a fair bit stronger than a lot of other noncaster classes. In mid-op, its classes generally have more decision points in combat, which some (myself particularly) find to be more interesting to play, but they're about even with the sheer numbers, and variants of various stripes, that the other classes bring to the table. At the higher bounds of things that could reasonably get played, initiators are actually weaker than the other classes, which can pull off scientific notation-level damage more easily, or intimidate everyone in earshot into cowering, or other nonsense.

Since you've stated that your group is low-op, it could well be that Tome of Battle isn't a good fit for your group. I just hope that, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't leave your list of permitted books with any measure of animosity.

[Douglas]

Well, after a discussion with the player in question, we determined he was adding incorrectly, and had dice he shouldn't have in the mix. Also didn't understand the "Refreshing Maneuvers" thing completely. Or that certain things didn't apply to bows.

So, in the end, what he is doing now:

Large Longsword (2d8) + Punishing Stance (1d6) + Bonecrusher (4d6) + Psionic Weapon (2d6). For a total of (2d8+7d6+Str)

He also now understands that he has to spend the next round refreshing to do it again (presuming he has Psionic Meditation).

So all in all, it appears to have worked out. Still not a fan of ToB, but it is now certainly tolerable comparatively.

Again, thank you all for your assistance. ^_^
If he is only a 4th level Warblade, he cannot have Bonecrusher yet. It is a level 3 maneuver, and just like a wizard with level 3 spells it requires 5th level to learn.

If he does not have Psionic Meditation, here's what he would have to do to use the whole thing twice:
1) Use it all. One big attack.
2) Spend one entire round doing nothing but recovering Psionic Focus. He can take a 5' step, and possibly use a swift action, but that's it.
3) On another round, spend a swift action and make at least one normal melee attack (or blow a standard action on doing nothing) to recover the maneuver. During this round, do not use any maneuvers at all (the stance doesn't count).
4) Do it again.

Refreshing all the expended resources takes 2 entire rounds.

If he does have Psionic Meditation, that reduces it to this:
1) Use it all. One big attack.
2) Spend one entire round refreshing it all. Move action to recover Psionic Focus, swift action and standard (which can be a normal melee attack - no maneuvers) to recover the maneuver. Other than recovery and a single non-boosted melee attack, all he can do is a 5' step. He cannot use a maneuver during this round.
3) Do it again.

Looking at the prerequisites for PM, he can't actually have it yet. The skill ranks requirement cannot be met until level 4, and you don't actually get another feat until level 6. So, refreshing everything takes 2 rounds of doing nearly nothing.

Now, there are several level 2 strikes that give +2d6 damage, but he can't have learned more than 2 of them yet. His other 3 maneuvers known must be level 1. The best he can really legitimately do for super damage here is this:

Round 1: Attack for 2d8 (weapon) + 1d6 (stance) + 2d6 (strike) + 2d6 (Psionic Weapon) + strength = 2d8+5d6+strength. Average 26.5 + strength.
Round 2: Attack for weapon + stance + other strike + strength = 2d8+3d6+strength. Average 19.5 + strength.
Round 3: Attack for weapon + stance + strength = 2d8+1d6+strength. Average 12.5 + strength. Also, recover maneuvers.
From here on, alternate 2 repetitions of round 2 with 1 repetition of round 3. Psionic Weapon will not be available again until the next fight, unless he for some reason decides it's worth wasting an entire round just for that (oh, and it also takes a DC 20 concentration check).

He could also add up to 2 level 1 strikes in there, extending the period before a refresh, but none of them add 2d6 damage. There's one that adds 1d6, but requires a concentration check to work. There's another that gives 2 attacks instead of 1, but they have to be against different opponents and neither attack gets bonus damage from the strike. Plus, using those would delay getting back to the +2d6 strikes.

Another thing to remember is that the stance has a drawback. As long as he's using it, his AC has a -2 penalty.

Oh, and the stance, strikes, and Psionic Weapon feat all are limited to melee only. With a bow, he should be doing weapon plus strength (and that only if the bow has an appropriate strength rating), and that's all.

[Artillery]

Edit: Swordsage'd


Well, after a discussion with the player in question, we determined he was adding incorrectly, and had dice he shouldn't have in the mix. Also didn't understand the "Refreshing Maneuvers" thing completely. Or that certain things didn't apply to bows.

So, in the end, what he is doing now:

Large Longsword (2d8) + Punishing Stance (1d6) + Bonecrusher (4d6) + Psionic Weapon (2d6). For a total of (2d8+7d6+Str)

He also now understands that he has to spend the next round refreshing to do it again (presuming he has Psionic Meditation).

So all in all, it appears to have worked out. Still not a fan of ToB, but it is now certainly tolerable comparatively.

Again, thank you all for your assistance. ^_^

He's level 4 right? He can't have Bonecrusher yet then, thats a lvl 3 manuevers so he needs to be at least lvl 5 for it.

I am in a campaign using a Tome of Battle class, but the rest of my party is casters. It lets me still contribute quite a bit to combat.

If he is a lvl 4 Half-giant Warblade, so ECL 5. He has 2 power points a day. He cannot recover them in combat. Psionically charging a weapon is only good for a single attack.

For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit.

Instead of Bonecrusher he would instead have Mountain Hammer, +2d6 ignores DR and hardness.

So he should usually be doing 2d8+1d6+2d6+str.
So 2d8+3d6+str. That averages out to 19.5dmg + str, the dmg the following turn while refreshing drops to 2d8+1d6+str, 12.5dmg + str.
His max hit during an encounter would be 2d8+1d6+2d6+2d6+str.
2d8+5d6+str, 26.5dmg + str.

At lvl 6 when other martial classes get iteratives things are much more even.
I have a lvl 7 Sword Sage/Warblade; BAB 6. My primary dmg comes from using Two-handed weapons with power attack.

I use a +1 Shocking Spiked Chain while in a Shadow Hand stance so I can add my dex to my dmg. I have a 20 Str, 16 Dex. I do base dmg of 2d4+1d6+1+7+3, avg 19.5 before any power attack or maneuvers. My largest dmg dealing method only works on opponents larger then me.

My best technique is using Soaring Raptor Strike while doing a full power attack against very large creatures. I have jump score of +17 outside of Leaping Dragon Stance.

My dmg is 2d4 weapon + 1d6 lightning + 1 enchantment + 7 strength +3 Shadowblade +12 power attack +6d6 Soaring Raptor Strike. 52.5 dmg avg.
Doing a regular iterative with power attack I do 2d4 weapon + 1d6 lightning + 1 enchantment + 7 strength +3 Shadowblade, 2 times. 2 x 31.5 dmg avg on a full attack. 63 dmg avg.

Tome of battle is fun because it gives more options in my experience to be a martial class. However an ubercharger will beat the stuffing out of normally played one. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Battle Jump, with a valorous weapon. That blows me out of the water.
At lvl 7 it would do with a +1 Valorous greatsword.
(2d6+7+1+ 21 leap attack)x3 Valorous and Battle Jump.
108 avg dmg in a single attack. They also would have pounce, so full attack with each hit doing 108 dmg.

[Trinoya]

My player has been posting again, this does not bode well. When my players post it means they are conspiring! >_>

That said: you guys do require a tank, badly, which is why I let the ToB fly. Also I will be looking over his sheet, as I intended to do after the first session, and after the second session... and hopefully, dear god hopefully before the third session...

Since you know, I would really love to have those copies of your character sheets that I've asked for... repeatedly. Till then, be a good wizard and fear the warblades I'll be sending at you all for retribution for being so slow in getting them to me :smallmad:


So yeah, character sheets. Your dungeon master wants them. :smallwink:

[Douglas]

Heh, well I guess that settles the question of making sure our explanations get to the DM intact and undistorted.

If you need a page reference for any part of my in depth explanation of the limits on his build, just ask.

[Trinoya]

Heh, well I guess that settles the question of making sure our explanations get to the DM intact and undistorted.

If you need a page reference for any part of my in depth explanation of the limits on his build, just ask.

Oh absolutely, just PM them all to me ^_^ I accept all advice and help I can get as a DM, and it will save me a lot of time in hunting down specifics in my book.

[Alaris]

Huh... maybe... need a...separate username for this. >.>

<.<

What character sheets? I don't know what you're talking about?

Squirrel Warblades? By the Thousands you say?

One character sheet... on its way... yes sir..

[Artillery]

My player has been posting again, this does not bode well. When my players post it means they are conspiring! >_>

That said: you guys do require a tank, badly, which is why I let the ToB fly. Also I will be looking over his sheet, as I intended to do after the first session, and after the second session... and hopefully, dear god hopefully before the third session...

Since you know, I would really love to have those copies of your character sheets that I've asked for... repeatedly. Till then, be a good wizard and fear the warblades I'll be sending at you all for retribution for being so slow in getting them to me :smallmad:


So yeah, character sheets. Your dungeon master wants them. :smallwink:

Ah, you allowed ToB the same way mine did. I am the shield for my party, I get Enlarged Person'd and Bull Strength'd by the casters and then play keep away with the big guys who want to eat their delicious d4's and d6's. Reach Weapons are great for that style of play and I recommend your warblade go into that style if he decides on a more control oriented setup focused on AoO.

My next investment is going to be into an Animated Shield. Being the meatwall only works as long as you are alive, even if you can shrug off a full-attack from a Celestial Dire Tiger, it's still better when it misses.

[Draz74]

One more nitpick: a Large Longsword shouldn't be doing 2d8 base damage. It should be doing 2d6.

The one that does 2d8 base damage is a Large Bastard Sword. Which requires a feat to use one-handed. (Although it sounds like this guy is wielding it two-handed anyway. In which case, it's perfectly legal, but it's pretty dumb of him not to use a Greatsword for 3d6 damage instead of 2d8.)

[Alaris]

One more nitpick: a Large Longsword shouldn't be doing 2d8 base damage. It should be doing 2d6.

The one that does 2d8 base damage is a Large Bastard Sword. Which requires a feat to use one-handed. (Although it sounds like this guy is wielding it two-handed anyway. In which case, it's perfectly legal, but it's pretty dumb of him not to use a Greatsword for 3d6 damage instead of 2d8.)

Probably Bastard Sword then. It's whichever sword does 2d8 when it's large. ^_^ That simple enough?

Nonetheless, I think he wants the ability to use it one handed with a shield when he needs to. Hence the Long/Bastard, rather than the Great.

[Andreaz]

Large Longsword (2d8) + Punishing Stance (1d6) + Bonecrusher (4d6) + Psionic Weapon (2d6). For a total of (2d8+7d6+Str)It's still sort of illegal there. Bonecrusher is a level 3 maneuver. Like a level 3 spell you need level 5 to learn it. Read that line like a spell!
So he can't have bonecrusher yet.
As a warblade, refreshing his maneuvers takes up an useless swift action and a standard action that must be a normal attack or an useless movement. Refreshing psionic focus takes a full-round action (he can't buy the feat that accelerates this yet).
So he does his uber hit for 2d8 + 1d6 + 2d6 + 2d6 (2d8 + 5d6 + str). To do it again he'll spend a round doing nothing and a round doing a mundane attack or nothing(can't be a full attack). After he gets psionic meditation he'll be able to do it all in one go, but that's still going to cost him a lot of time... 2d8+5d6+str once per two rounds is...not much. His max normal damage per round would be 23 + half str.

[Wings of Peace]

In total fairness to the Paladin and the Fighter they're only overshadowed by ToB in lower op environments where out of the box strength becomes more valuble.

Does the Swordsage replace the monk effectively? Yeah, at least in the places that count.

Does the Warblade replace the Fighter? Not entirely. Yes a Warblade out of the box will be in a more advantageous position but if I was making an Ubercharger I'd rather have all those Fighter feats to work with.

The Paladin is a similar beast. For general tanking would I prefer the Crusader? You bet. But between Sword of the Arcane Order, Turn Undead trickery, and Rhino's Rush (for when you want that extra kick) the Paladin's potential for optimization is still at least on par with the Crusader though I would argue it's actually higher.

[Artillery]

In total fairness to the Paladin and the Fighter they're only overshadowed by ToB in lower op environments where out of the box strength becomes more valuble.

Does the Swordsage replace the monk effectively? Yeah, at least in the places that count.

Does the Warblade replace the Fighter? Not entirely. Yes a Warblade out of the box will be in a more advantageous position but if I was making an Ubercharger I'd rather have all those Fighter feats to work with.

The Paladin is a similar beast. For general tanking would I prefer the Crusader? You bet. But between Sword of the Arcane Order, Turn Undead trickery, and Rhino's Rush (for when you want that extra kick) the Paladin's potential for optimization is still at least on par with the Crusader though I would argue it's actually higher.

Fighter Dips are valid in almost any build, its just Fighter 20 isn't. Paladin is a class that you can get plenty of good ability and character out of, it takes some effort. But it is very flexible in what you want to get, from smite to song lets you make a very effective frontline bardidan. Mounted Combat is like a nuclear strike when you optimize for it, and the Paladin's mounts can get pretty fierce, Celestial Dire Tigers are brutal to deal with.

It doesn't make much sense to take Monk itself past 3-4 level for most builds though because there are prestige classes that still contribute to it while giving better benefits. Shadow Sun Ninja is a great PrC for Monk, advancing its class abilities but with more overall synergy

[Wings of Peace]

Fighter Dips are valid in almost any build, its just Fighter 20 isn't. Paladin is a class that you can get plenty of good ability and character out of, it takes some effort. But it is very flexible in what you want to get, from smite to song lets you make a very effective frontline bardidan. Mounted Combat is like a nuclear strike when you optimize for it, and the Paladin's mounts can get pretty fierce, Celestial Dire Tigers are brutal to deal with.

It doesn't make much sense to take Monk itself past 3-4 level for most builds though because there are prestige classes that still contribute to it while giving better benefits. Shadow Sun Ninja is a great PrC for Monk, advancing its class abilities but with more overall synergy

My main point with the Fighter is that it's unfair to call the Warblade a total replacement on the grounds that for feat intensive activities like Ubercharging a straight Fighter can come out ahead damage wise over a straight Warblade in the long term. Don't take this as me saying they're on par with the Warblade tier wise mind you. I'm just pointing out that he isn't -completely- eclipsed by the Warblade, there are very valid reasons to go Fighter over Warblade.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Have you checked his feats? Does your game allow flaws? As a 4th level Half-Giant Warblade, he should have only 2 feats. Thus far, it sounds like he has EWP: Bastard Sword (to use it 1H when needed), Psionic Weapon, and Psionic Meditation if he wants to use Psionic Weapon with any regularity. And maybe martial weapon proficiency (bow). And possibly other feats.

[Spuddles]

Ignoring the rule issues, do note that a sizeable chunk of his DPS is coming from non-ToB material. Almost half his damage dice, as well as some of his str, is coming from psionic rules, which also tend to hit harder at lower levels.

[Morph Bark]

Wait, one thing I just realized... Bonecrusher is a 3rd level maneuver, isn't it? LA doesn't increase initiator level, so he shouldn't be able to have it. Mountain Hammer tops.

I think this guy has just gotten overly excited about using Tome of Battle after reading a lot about it on forums and such and ended up interpreting a bunch of rules incorrectly due to too much skimming and assuming rather than correct reading. Then again, the DM should've done his/her reading too, beforehand.

So yeah, the combo is indeed pretty strong in damage output, but ToB is only a third of it tops.

Here's to hopin' the player shapes up and doesn't skim the rules too much in the future.