Angels in the Gate-field?

[Sunken Valley]

Want to start a thread about a point.

Durkon says he can get Thor to give him Astral Deva's for gate guarding. My question is, if the gate's are so important, why are the God's not doing that already?

The God's are infinite, there's nothing stopping them from conjuring Solar's, Balor's and similar to guard the gates. Why leave it to some dysfunctional party who are all dead?

[Xelbiuj]

why are the God's not doing that already?

1. Then we wouldn't have much of a story.
2. It's fiction.
3. Non-interference clause with mortal affairs.
4. They can rebuild the universe should something happen.
5. lol Balors? Really? You think they'd use balors to keep a god killing monster imprisoned.

[Sunken Valley]

why are the God's not doing that already?

1. Then we wouldn't have much of a story.
2. It's fiction.
3. Non-interference clause with mortal affairs.
4. They can rebuild the universe should something happen.
5. lol Balors? Really? You think they'd use balors to keep a god killing monster imprisoned.

For point 5: I was acknowledging that the evils gods might say "whoa, Solar's, bit too Good let's balance things out a bit?

For point 3: The Gate is in no way mortal affairs.

For point 4: That's rather cold and harsh.

For points 1 and 2: OOTS is the most genre saavy thing out there that has some sort of 4th wall. No way would the Gods of OOTS leave the guarding of the Gate, a safety hazard of universal importance to an independant private company without a good reason. Nobody in this comic is that stupid. There must be a real reason other than "just cause".

[Xelbiuj]

5. Fiends aren't exactly trust worthy, demons especially. The physical embodiment of chaotic evil isn't something you want to leave the fate of, everything to. Balons aren't exactly tools to just be used, they have their own desires you know.
The phrase, "fox guarding the hen house" comes to mind.

Hell, even income the IFCC has their own motivations with the gates and it certainly isn't, "live and let live".

4. Have gods in any myth been anything less than harsh? Even the good gods are at best a sort of the libertarian "boot strap yourselves" type.
S*** man, do you know any Greek myths? Watch Immortals, it's basically exactly whats happening in OOTs.

3. Fair enough but given what we know about how deities work in oots, genocide against their worshipers would affect them just as much, didn't see the Dark One directly interfering with the Sapphire Guard's slaughter of goblins. If he loses all his followers, poof. Probably.

2 & 1. Again, it's written how it's written. Asking why gods don't behave differently is dumb.

[FujinAkari]

For points 1 and 2: OOTS is the most genre saavy thing out there that has some sort of 4th wall. No way would the Gods of OOTS leave the guarding of the Gate, a safety hazard of universal importance to an independant private company without a good reason. Nobody in this comic is that stupid. There must be a real reason other than "just cause".

The reason is pretty clearly spelled out, imho.

There are holes in the Snarl's prison, and it could theoretically break out at any moment. No God in their right mind wants to be directly involved with protecting the very place the Snarl could theoretically come from. Keep in mind, the Snarl went through an entire pantheon in a matter of minutes, the Gods that survived -only- survived because it happened upon the Greek Gods first and, by the time it finished with them, couldn't find anything else.

Manifesting on the Prime Material, or even sending anything with a direct connection to their home TO the prime material is simply a risk that the Gods are unwilling to take.

[LadyFoxfire]

It may be because the gods are forbidden from interfering with each other's territories, except through the intervention of clerics. It's possible that there's territorial squabbling going on off screen, so the gods agreed to just let the adventurers handle everything.

[Morty]

Gods don't intervene on the mortal plane except through their servants. See Thor getting chewed out by Tiger for bending the rules with Control Weather. It's even more true for the Snarl, which they seem to stay away from even more vigorously.

[Fitzclowningham]

Also, if the gods were willing to send help to defend the gates, they'd be just as willing to snuff Xykon and Redcloak and be done with the whole thing.

[theNater]

The gods aren't helping defend the gates because (by and large) the gods don't know about the gates.

Remember, one of the concerns is that if the gods knew the snarl's prison was weakening, they would unmake the world as the first step in remaking the prison. Those who discovered the rifts are part of the world, so they were careful to refrain from informing the gods.

[FujinAkari]

The gods aren't helping defend the gates because (by and large) the gods don't know about the gates.

Remember, one of the concerns is that if the gods knew the snarl's prison was weakening, they would unmake the world as the first step in remaking the prison. Those who discovered the rifts are part of the world, so they were careful to refrain from informing the gods.

Uh... no.

The Sapphire Guard's quest to destroy the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is explicitly referred to as a Divinely Mandated Quest.

[theNater]

Uh... no.

The Sapphire Guard's quest to destroy the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is explicitly referred to as a Divinely Mandated Quest.
Paladins sometimes refer to their activities as being divinely mandated, even when there is no direct order from the gods. Or it's possible that the gods know that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle wishes to unleash the snarl without knowing about the rifts(remember, they were worried about someone trying to free the snarl before the rifts started to form).

I'll admit, though, the statements that led me to believe the gods don't know aren't as clear as I remembered them. The big ones are that the Scribblers decided to keep things secret "like the gods before them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)", rather than "upon consultation with the gods" or something; and Roy's statement that "the gods have a blackout on information regarding the snarl and the rifts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html)", which I took as the gods being uninformed but could instead mean that the gods are working to keep mortals uninformed.

Can anyone point to a source that unequivocally indicates whether the gods do or don't know about the rifts?

[Winter]

Durkon says he can get Thor to give him Astral Deva's for gate guarding. My question is, if the gate's are so important, why are the God's not doing that already?

Durkon is talking about a spell here. This is game mechanic.

As to why the gods are not interfering more? We do not know. Why have they not guarded the gates themselves somehow? We do not know.

In this specific case: Thor is not directly giving Durkon more stuff because his cleric is on the wrong continent (in the wrong area) for him.

[LuPuWei]

Want to start a thread about a point.

Durkon says he can get Thor to give him Astral Deva's for gate guarding. My question is, if the gate's are so important, why are the God's not doing that already?

The God's are infinite, there's nothing stopping them from conjuring Solar's, Balor's and similar to guard the gates. Why leave it to some dysfunctional party who are all dead?

Good question, the first things to come to my mind are:

1. The Gods from many early religions were powerful but not all-powerful (though I don't know what D&D rules are on this) so the OotS Gods may not be infinite and populating the planet with devas may not be that simple.

2. As Roy noted, for real threats like Xykon, a band of hapless adventurers seems to be just as effective (if not more so) as a bunch of celestials.

3. Also, like others have said, its not clear exactly how much the Gods know about the rifts, since they were discovered independently by mortals and may have inititally been too small to set off the Gods' radar. It is likely they know something about the rifts, at least Lirian's- they would have discovered its existence the way the Dark One did (and note- Redcloak, and by extension the Dark One was unaware of the other rifts) but again, its likely that they think its not worth the trouble sealing individual rifts and will just remake the world if necessary.

4. The jurisdiction thing seems to be an important point. After all, the snarl was formed from Divine bickering and the jurisdiction principle was concieved to specifically avoid another Snarl. Direct intervention, even in the form of a protective celestial army, might be to messy logistically.

5. On a broader philosophical note, there's also the question of why the Gods didn't just populate the planet with Celestials and Demons in the first place? If there's a good enough reason for humanoids to inhabit the OotSplanet in the first place, maybe that's the same reason an army of celestials camping in the mountains is a bad idea...

[JavaScribe]

I don't know the reason, but it would probably be useful to bring up the fact that this has been discussed before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236787) and the Giant says that this is something to be revealed in the future.

[Boogastreehouse]

Want to start a thread about a point.

Durkon says he can get Thor to give him Astral Deva's for gate guarding. My question is, if the gate's are so important, why are the God's not doing that already?

The God's are infinite, there's nothing stopping them from conjuring Solar's, Balor's and similar to guard the gates. Why leave it to some dysfunctional party who are all dead?

He did not say that. He said he would ask Thor to send some Devas. We don't yet know if Thor is going to do any such thing.

If Thor does provide this resource, it's still Durkon who is directly managing those resources in the field, just like always. Thor still isn't getting anywhere near that thing.

[Roderick_BR]

As I commented on another thread, why doesn't the gods interfere with astral devas and avatars in all world-ending events, in any story or scenario? Must have a reason that they need clerics to summon their favor to do it (other than they just being b*stards)
Just look any classice scenario. Nordic and Greek mythology (usually more popular), doesn't have their gods running around destroying monsters. Even in D&D official scenarios, like Forgotten Realms, you don't get gods just using their infinite power and ending major dangers to their worlds.

[Dr.Epic]

2 & 1. Again, it's written how it's written. Asking why gods don't behave differently is dumb.

Actually, no. It's the exact opposite. It's dumb NOT to ask a question about a story when an action, plot point, or character motivation doesn't make sense.

[Roland Itiative]

Fair enough but given what we know about how deities work in oots, genocide against their worshipers would affect them just as much, didn't see the Dark One directly interfering with the Sapphire Guard's slaughter of goblins. If he loses all his followers, poof. Probably.
That doesn't seem to be how things work in OotS. The four main pantheons existed before there was anything in the universe to worship them, after all. And three of them survived the destruction of the entire world, keeping their power intact so they could start anew.

Then we have the gods that are created by faith (such as The Dark One, the unseen elven gods... and Banjo), who might need faith to keep their godhood. But that doesn't seem to be the case either, considering Redcloak's idea of a plan B (setting the Snarl free to force the gods to remake the world, with The Dark One being part of the creative process).


The Gods from many early religions were powerful but not all-powerful (though I don't know what D&D rules are on this) so the OotS Gods may not be infinite and populating the planet with devas may not be that simple.
Gods in D&D are most certainly not all-powerful, indeed. In fact, gods in D&D3.5 are quite physically weak for their status.

And having a huge number of their forces stationed at such a dangerous location would likely:

1- Weaken their defences elsewhere.

2- Cause squabbles about who should do what with the rifts. Think the Order of the Scribble's in-fighting, but in godly proportions.

[snikrept]

Why are the God's not doing that already?
Maybe the Gods have a certain blindness to the rifts. It was never explained how the order of the scribble got their info about the gates, IIRC. Perhaps not from the Gods after all.

"Gate? What gate?"

[Snails]

As I commented on another thread, why doesn't the gods interfere with astral devas and avatars in all world-ending events, in any story or scenario? Must have a reason that they need clerics to summon their favor to do it (other than they just being b*stards)
Just look any classice scenario. Nordic and Greek mythology (usually more popular), doesn't have their gods running around destroying monsters. Even in D&D official scenarios, like Forgotten Realms, you don't get gods just using their infinite power and ending major dangers to their worlds.

I think there is an implied Anthropomorphic Principle operating here. Big World Changing Epics can only occur within geography where the gods are sufficiently hands off (of somehow sufficiently weak) that sending over a solar or two is not cricket.

One can speculate whether this is due to some true precognition/omniscience wedded with a Mystery about the purposes of the divine beings, or something else. In this case, we have reasonable guesses why the gods are hands off: (A) getting near a Gate may be hazardous to divine health, (B) getting directly involved with the Gates may provoke further divine conflict, and it is direct divine conflict that probably created the Snarl in the first place, (C) the gods have a practical backup plan, albeit an undesirable one (reset the world by letting Snarl destroy this one, too; then rebuild).