Druid Archer Without Wild Shape. Please Help

[SleepyShadow]

I am trying to make a wild elf druid (taking both the Swift Hunter and the Avenger alternate class features) who specializes in archery. I know Wild Shape is a key component in what makes druids overpowered, but I would like to see what could be done with a druid without it. Any help in making this concept work would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

I'm aware of the Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout feat, but not the Swift Hunter Druid ACF. Where is it from ?

Also you might want to look at the Aspect of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature) variant. This is a toned down wild-shape.

[awa]

zen archery and a flying mount is a good way to go although you might be pretty feat starved.

[Phelix-Mu]

There is a druid ACF in the Dragon Magic supplement. I believe it was called Dragon Aspect or somesuch. You trade wild shape for bonuses to stats and stuff like wings or claws and such, but you can use all of the forms without losing your generally humanoid shape, so you don't lose the ability to wield your bow. I just finished a long campaign with a frequent npc that had this, and while it wasn't highly optimized, it was MUCH simpler than using wild shape and allowed her to avoid the pitfalls of that class feature (e.g., all your equips go away when wild shaping, can't talk, etc).

[Feralventas]

Zen Archery might work for making you wisdom-dependent (not that that wasn't already the case, druid casting and all that.) Woodland stride might help you escape adversaries on the ground; toss down an effect that applies natural impediments to movement, then walk right through them, kiting anyone foolish enough to chase you.

Don't forget that there are a couple of spells that let you shape-shift in case you need to make a fast escape (small bird or fish).

Feat-wise, you're going to have a difficult time making your archery capable damage-dealing. Consider looking into feats to let you do ranged combat maneuvers like Trip or Bull Rush instead of outright damage. You might also ask for permission to use Divine spellcasting rather than Arcane for Arcane Archer.
Better still, ask after the Pathfinder version which grants spell progression.

[Phelix-Mu]

You might also ask for permission to use Divine spellcasting rather than Arcane for Arcane Archer.
Better still, ask after the Pathfinder version which grants spell progression.

Agreed that 3.5 Arcane Archer became kind of sad. Can I get a link to the PF version? Such a classic elf prestige class, it really needs a fix.

Also, there are excellent equipment options and a couple spells (not sure they were druid) for elven archers in Races of the Wild. It would be nifty if you could negotiate access to some of the ranger spells aimed at archery builds.

[Feralventas]

Agreed that 3.5 Arcane Archer became kind of sad. Can I get a link to the PF version? Such a classic elf prestige class, it really needs a fix.

Also, there are excellent equipment options and a couple spells (not sure they were druid) for elven archers in Races of the Wild. It would be nifty if you could negotiate access to some of the ranger spells aimed at archery builds.
Here you are. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer)

[Urpriest]

I'd advise a dip in Prestige Ranger, as there are lots of Ranger spells that are very nice for archery.

[SowZ]

Dip a level in Shiba Protector. With Zen Archery, it will let you add double your wisdom damage to your to hit and your wisdom modifier damage. They stack because on is a Wisdom bonus to attack rolls and one is replacing the Dex bonus to attack rolls.

[SleepyShadow]

I'm aware of the Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout feat, but not the Swift Hunter Druid ACF. Where is it from ?

Also you might want to look at the Aspect of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature) variant. This is a toned down wild-shape.

In Unearthed Arcana the ACF removes my wildshape and armor proficiency in exchange for Monk AC (Wis bonus as well), Monk movement speed increase, Ranger favored enemies, and a couple of free feats.

@Feralventas: It certainly can't hurt to ask, and Zen Archery will definitely be nice. Thanks.

@Urpriest: I hadn't thought of that. Good idea.

@Sowz: Would it be worth losing a caster level, do you think? On top of that, I'm concerned about feats as it is, and iirc Shiba Protector has some awful prerequisite feats.

[SowZ]

In Unearthed Arcana the ACF removes my wildshape and armor proficiency in exchange for Monk AC (Wis bonus as well), Monk movement speed increase, Ranger favored enemies, and a couple of free feats.

@Feralventas: It certainly can't hurt to ask, and Zen Archery will definitely be nice. Thanks.

@Urpriest: I hadn't thought of that. Good idea.

@Sowz: Would it be worth losing a caster level, do you think? On top of that, I'm concerned about feats as it is, and iirc Shiba Protector has some awful prerequisite feats.

I'm a big believer in sacrifice power for your concept, but then make it as good as you can while staying true to the concept. The question is, how important to you is it to be a competent archer? If it is a big part of your concept I'd say it is absolutely worth the loss in caster level. Yeah, the feats suck. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself if three feats is worth wisdom to attack rolls, wisdom to damage, +2 spot and listen, +2 Will Save, and combat expertise. This will probably eventually be the difference of a +6-8 bonus to both attacks and damage with your archery. So, yeah, I think it is worth the feats.

By level 8, with zen archery, shiba protector, +2 weapon, and a +2 Wis item, you could be getting +22 attack, +9 damage. Nothing to sneeze at. If LA buyoff is allowed, grab the saint template. This is practically removing the need for any other stat.

If you don't go shiba protector, consider strongheart halfling and pick up yondalla's sense.

[nedz]

I'm aware of the Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout feat, but not the Swift Hunter Druid ACF. Where is it from ?In Unearthed Arcana the ACF removes my wildshape and armor proficiency in exchange for Monk AC (Wis bonus as well), Monk movement speed increase, Ranger favored enemies, and a couple of free feats.

Ah, this one:


Deadly Hunter (UA, p 58): Gain bonus to AC when unarmored and fast movement (as monk). Gain favored enemy, track, and swift tracker as a ranger. Lose armor and shield proficiency and wild shape.

You got the name wrong — easy mistake.

[ericgrau]

Druids have good battlefield control spells. You could trap foes before you shoot them. Entangle, for example. It's not an insta-win if your DM plays the monsters right, but chances are you optimized better for range than most random foes.

[SleepyShadow]

@Sowz: Fair enough. Any suggestions on how to get the feats easier?

@nedz: My mistake. Thanks for catching it.


EDIT: My character can't get into Shiba Protector. One of the requirements is to be human.

[SowZ]

@Sowz: Fair enough. Any suggestions on how to get the feats easier?

@nedz: My mistake. Thanks for catching it.


EDIT: My character can't get into Shiba Protector. One of the requirements is to be human.

Oh, okay. /:

[samuraijaques]

I actually have a build for this exact character concept that i made for someone in one of my campaigns.

Female Human Deadly Hunter Druid 5/ Shiba Protector 1
Neutral Good

Strength 10 (+0)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 18 (+4)
Charisma 11 (+0)

wisdom dictates your AC, + to hit, + to damage, bonus spells, spell DC and is the key ability for all the skills you need, max it. other than that it's pretty much up in the air. con is always good.

feats: 2 flaws
-Mounted Combat (prereq for mounted archery)
-Mounted Archery (prereq for imp. mounted archery)
-Precise Shot 9prereq for every archery feat ever, still useful though)
-Initiate of Nature (commanding animals is awesome, get more cats to follow you and do your bidding, like a crazy cat lady only more dangerous. optional)
-Improved Mounted Archery (the best part of this build, no penalties for firing from a mount that has taken a double move, only a -2 for firing from a running mount and the best part, make your attack at any point during the move, awesome)
-Natural Bond (just so you can have the magebred tiger earlier. optional)

magebred ghost tiger animal companion for use as a mount and because they tear things apart almost as well as a fleshraker.

equipment for you
-bracers of archery (druids dont have proficiency with any good bows)
-elven double bow of seeking (trade it out for hank's energy bow later)
-efficient quiver (for all your arrows)

equipment for the kitty
-horseshoes of speed (kite endlessly with a movement speed of 80')
-mithril barding (no one want's to see the kitty get hurt, plus, it would look awesome)
-exotic military saddle (so that you don't fall out)

pick up a bunch of good CC spells (something druids get a bunch of) like entangle, wind wall, spirit jaws, blinding spittle

kite people endlessly as you rain arrows down upon them with a decent damage modifier from your wisdom (shiba protector is really great, try getting your DM to waive the human restriction) and laugh as they try to move through your CC. even if they make it through, your mount is also super powerful in melee combat, allowing you to simply dismount and tag team enemies.

overall, not a game breaking build, but a very fun and stylish one.

hope it helps, cheers

[SowZ]

I actually have a build for this exact character concept that i made for someone in one of my campaigns.

Female Human Deadly Hunter Druid 5/ Shiba Protector 1
Neutral Good

Strength 10 (+0)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 18 (+4)
Charisma 11 (+0)

wisdom dictates your AC, + to hit, + to damage, bonus spells, spell DC and is the key ability for all the skills you need, max it. other than that it's pretty much up in the air. con is always good.

feats: 2 flaws
-Mounted Combat (prereq for mounted archery)
-Mounted Archery (prereq for imp. mounted archery)
-Precise Shot 9prereq for every archery feat ever, still useful though)
-Initiate of Nature (commanding animals is awesome, get more cats to follow you and do your bidding, like a crazy cat lady only more dangerous. optional)
-Improved Mounted Archery (the best part of this build, no penalties for firing from a mount that has taken a double move, only a -2 for firing from a running mount and the best part, make your attack at any point during the move, awesome)
-Natural Bond (just so you can have the magebred tiger earlier. optional)

magebred ghost tiger animal companion for use as a mount and because they tear things apart almost as well as a fleshraker.

equipment for you
-bracers of archery (druids dont have proficiency with any good bows)
-elven double bow of seeking (trade it out for hank's energy bow later)
-efficient quiver (for all your arrows)

equipment for the kitty
-horseshoes of speed (kite endlessly with a movement speed of 80')
-mithril barding (no one want's to see the kitty get hurt, plus, it would look awesome)
-exotic military saddle (so that you don't fall out)

pick up a bunch of good CC spells (something druids get a bunch of) like entangle, wind wall, spirit jaws, blinding spittle

kite people endlessly as you rain arrows down upon them with a decent damage modifier from your wisdom (shiba protector is really great, try getting your DM to waive the human restriction) and laugh as they try to move through your CC. even if they make it through, your mount is also super powerful in melee combat, allowing you to simply dismount and tag team enemies.

overall, not a game breaking build, but a very fun and stylish one.

hope it helps, cheers

Where is Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will

[samuraijaques]

is that a joke or are you being serious?

[Unusual Muse]

I actually have a build for this exact character concept that i made for someone in one of my campaigns.

Female Human Deadly Hunter Druid 5/ Shiba Protector 1
Neutral Good

Strength 10 (+0)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 18 (+4)
Charisma 11 (+0)

wisdom dictates your AC, + to hit, + to damage, bonus spells, spell DC and is the key ability for all the skills you need, max it. other than that it's pretty much up in the air. con is always good.

feats: 2 flaws
-Mounted Combat (prereq for mounted archery)
-Mounted Archery (prereq for imp. mounted archery)
-Precise Shot 9prereq for every archery feat ever, still useful though)
-Initiate of Nature (commanding animals is awesome, get more cats to follow you and do your bidding, like a crazy cat lady only more dangerous. optional)
-Improved Mounted Archery (the best part of this build, no penalties for firing from a mount that has taken a double move, only a -2 for firing from a running mount and the best part, make your attack at any point during the move, awesome)
-Natural Bond (just so you can have the magebred tiger earlier. optional)

magebred ghost tiger animal companion for use as a mount and because they tear things apart almost as well as a fleshraker.

equipment for you
-bracers of archery (druids dont have proficiency with any good bows)
-elven double bow of seeking (trade it out for hank's energy bow later)
-efficient quiver (for all your arrows)

equipment for the kitty
-horseshoes of speed (kite endlessly with a movement speed of 80')
-mithril barding (no one want's to see the kitty get hurt, plus, it would look awesome)
-exotic military saddle (so that you don't fall out)

pick up a bunch of good CC spells (something druids get a bunch of) like entangle, wind wall, spirit jaws, blinding spittle

kite people endlessly as you rain arrows down upon them with a decent damage modifier from your wisdom (shiba protector is really great, try getting your DM to waive the human restriction) and laugh as they try to move through your CC. even if they make it through, your mount is also super powerful in melee combat, allowing you to simply dismount and tag team enemies.

overall, not a game breaking build, but a very fun and stylish one.

hope it helps, cheers

Being a Druid, you might want to consider trading one of those feats for Mounted Casting.

[SowZ]

is that a joke or are you being serious?

I'm serious but only because they are Shiba Protector pre-reqs. /:

[nedz]

Where is Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Willis that a joke or are you being serious?
Question: What are the Pre-Reqs for Shiba Protector ?
Answer: Human, Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will

Ed: Ninja'd :smallbiggrin:

[samuraijaques]

good call, definitely didn't think about that. surely there is a way to get a similar bonus in item form though. it seems silly to waste a feat on it.

with maxed ranks in concentration and a constitution modifier of +2 you would have an 11 at level 6, with only a +2 concentration item you could safely cast all your spells during a regular move from your mount (DC 10 + spell level). a +7 would let you safely cast spells even if your mount takes a full round run action (DC 15 + spell level). if you continue to max ranks in concentration you will eventually have a high enough check to make mounted casting irrelevant.

cheers

EDIT: ah, i feel silly, i remember now, i waived the requirements for shiba protector to make the player not feel so bad about not having wildshape. so take the build without shiba protector and take zen archery instead. you can up your damage with the power attack esque effect of hank's energy bow.

[Yuukale]

sorry but: where is it that Zen Archery lets you add your wis mod to damage? AFAIK it only adds your wis mod to att. rolls.

[Urpriest]

sorry but: where is it that Zen Archery lets you add your wis mod to damage? AFAIK it only adds your wis mod to att. rolls.

I don't think anyone on the thread is claiming otherwise. Shiba Protector lets you add your Wis mod to damage.

[SleepyShadow]

It's starting to sound like going straight Deadly Hunter Druid Avenger might be my only real option here. This seems so odd to me. I don't remember having played a single-class character since 1st Ed. :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Druids are like that: very few PrCs available, most of which are meh.

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't think anyone on the thread is claiming otherwise. Shiba Protector lets you add your Wis mod to damage.

Where is Shiba Protector from? Not familiar with this, IIRC.

[SowZ]

Where is Shiba Protector from? Not familiar with this, IIRC.

Oriental Adventures.

[subject42]

You may also want to look at the Shapeshifter ACF from Eberron. It's at-will and gives stat boosts that work well with composite mighty bows.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oriental Adventures.

Thanks. Is there a link somewhere to the 3.5 update/errata for that book? I used to have it, but it went missing at sometime in the past. I do like having .pdf copies of everything, but switching comps and losing hard drives does make maintaining a complete collection, especially for obscure stuff, difficult.

[Urpriest]

Thanks. Is there a link somewhere to the 3.5 update/errata for that book? I used to have it, but it went missing at sometime in the past. I do like having .pdf copies of everything, but switching comps and losing hard drives does make maintaining a complete collection, especially for obscure stuff, difficult.

There was a 3.5 update to Oriental Adventures in Dragon Magazine (off the top of my head don't remember which, might as well google it). It wasn't ever "officially" updated.

As for the question of PrCs, there should be a few good generic divine PrCs that will help matters. At the very least Contemplative would be helpful (any domain with Divine Power would be nice), and Sacred Exorcist (provided you're NG) would let you into the DMM crowd. Not very many of your remaining class features scale with level, so you really should be going for some PrCs.

[samuraijaques]

here is a list of 3.5 and 3.0 errata found on the wizards website. oriental adventures is near the bottom.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a