Dragonfire Adept or Warlock

[2samspan]

So, I have been trying to make an interesting character with some mechanics that would make my character special, and I decided to do an incantation-using class. Now, as the title asks, which would be better. I have read up on both, but I cannot decide. The Dragonfire Adept would make for an interesting character, role-play wise, and is very flexible, but it does not have as many incantations. Warlocks, however, have armor proficiency and has more incantations. They both seem equal, and I cannot decide on which to do. And so, I am asking random people I don't know for help.

[Edge of Dreams]

Warlock makes a better single-target damage dealer, especially if you do the build where you shape your blast into a glaive and use it as a physical weapon to whack your foes over and over. Dragonfire Adept, on the other hand, has a lot more options that support AoE damage, crowd control, and debuffing enemies.

Warlock also has more prestige class support if you care about that.

[Annos]

Take Dragonfire Adept if you want to be the Appraiser/Unlimited Crowd Control/Proffesion(Jet Engine):smallbiggrin:

[Fable Wright]

It depends on what you want to do.

If you want to breathe fire and lock down foes, while having a unique utility powers on hand? Dragonfire Adept.

If you want to close into melee and roll fistfulls of d6es each time you swing, while having some powerful utility powers? Warlock. Be sure to grab the Eldritch Glaive invocation from Dragon Magic and the Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) class.

[Person_Man]

Both classes are Tier 4ish. But Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) is mechanically superior.

Dragonfire Adept Pros:

Your breath weapon and breath effects by default effect multiple enemies, and your party members can easily be made immune to their effects.
Your breath weapons/effects are Con based (which is dramatically superior to Cha).
8 Invocations + 6 breath effects = 14 total, compared to 12 Warlock Invocations (which incorporates both spell-like abilities and Invocation effects/shapes).
Breath effects generally include more powerful battlefield control options.
Breath weapon can arguably be improved with breath weapon feats (Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon).
Arguably never needs to make an attack roll. In addition to being less MAD, you can also theoretically wear whatever armor and shields you want, because you don't care about the armor check penalty to your Skills or To-Hit rolls.


Warlock Pros:

Eldritch Blast damage is untyped and doesn't allow a Save (but does require a touch attack).
Deceive Item at 4th level, which is very important for low level UMD use (though meaningless in mid-high level games).
3/4 BAB. So if you want a melee build, it's available.


The only time I would consider using a Warlock over a DFA is if I knew that the DM was going to throw a ton of Evasion using enemies against me (hunt down the thieves guild! Doh!).

And if you're willing to consider them, you can also pull off the whole at-will blasty + cool stuff thing with Incarnate, Totemist, or Binder, which are all Tier 3 if you know what you're doing.

[Psyren]

I personally rate DFA slightly higher as they can get by just with Con, making them one of the most SAD classes in the game. The breath is also supernatural which helps them deal with annoyances like SR, immunity, AoOs and globes/dispels more easily.

The Warlock has more support, however - with HFW giving them a big damage boost, and crafting giving them a viable route to power.

If you wanted to boost the power of both classes, you could do so by gestalting Warlock with Binder and DFA with Totemist. Doing so would result in classes that are decently strong but still don't break the game.

[Fable Wright]

-snip-
Warlock Pros:

Eldritch Blast damage is untyped and doesn't allow a Save (but does require a touch attack).
Deceive Item at 4th level, which is very important for low level UMD use (though meaningless in mid-high level games).
3/4 BAB. So if you want a melee build, it's available.
Debatably better invocations (The Dead Walk, Virtrolic Blast, Baleful Utterance, and more)
Better DPR than the Dragonfire Adept
Better multiclassing and Prestige Class options

-snip-

You missed some of the Warlock's pros.

While your points are fine and valid, and I'll agree that an out of the box Dragonfire Adept is mechanically superior to a Warlock, the Warlock class became significantly better with splatbook support. They can do some (fairly decent) battlefield control, they can do large amounts of damage, and they are less reliant on stats than traditional melee characters, due to a lack of Power Attack and a focus on Touch attacks.

I will also say that if you want battlefield control and out of combat utility, Dragonfire Adept is your class. Their invocations are great, they can do a lot of lockdown, and they do many things better than the Warlock.

However, Warlocks, and Glaivelocks in particular, have more in-combat tactical options and damage potential than Dragonfire Adepts do, being able to modulate between melee powerhouse, ranged attacker, and battlefield controller effortlessly.

They're both valid options, and have unique and powerful options open to them, it mostly depends on how you want to play.

And I just got ninja'd.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would like to point out that with eldritch essences like Nauseating, Hindering, and Beshadowed Blast... Warlocks can do pretty well at lockdown, with a side of damage to boot. Chilling Tentacles is also pretty good at battlefield control, since few opponents will actually have freedom of movement active.

[Phelix-Mu]

Both are good choices. I find that, compared to many other spellcasters, warlock and DFA run into the mid-level things that make low-tier combat classes less interesting, namely most rounds the actions to take in combat will be fairly similar, at least when compared with wiz/cleric/druid. Can't really take this as a con, though.

The real difference is in the fluff. Fiendish influence boomstick or dragon studying breath weapon. Personally, I like that breath weapon for DFA is supernatural, which can become something of an issue for warlocks (necessitating choosing certain invocations or feats).

While there are not any DFA-specific prestige classes, there are a wide variey of dragon-themed feats and breath weapon feats, much more so than there are good feats for warlock (IMHO). In particular, Draconic Aura and Draconic Cohort are both cool, flavorful, and effective feats for DFA.

[Sugashane]

Warlock 1/Cleric 3/ Eldritch Disciple 10/Binder 1 (Bind to Naberius)/Hellfire Warlock 3/Anything else

Allows for solid progression of BAB, limitless blasts, good cleric spellcasting progression cast 6th level spells), ability healing for the Hellfire Blasts, and can heal and/or buff yourself and other members. One feat (battle caster) and you use blasts in mithril full plate without any chance of failure due to armor. Cast divine power on yourself and eldritch glaive and you will basically never miss for 3-4 attacks, as it is just a touch attack.

One more level of cleric or a prestige class that advances spellcasting and you would gain access to 7th level spells as well.

[Sgt. Cookie]

There's also one more thing about Warlock, you can use them effectively regardless of your actual Ability scores. Charisma only affects save DCs, and touch AC is often pitiful.

[TheifofZ]

Warlock 1/Cleric 3/ Eldritch Disciple 10/Binder 1 (Bind to Naberius)/Hellfire Warlock 3/Anything else
Of course, this build is pretty powerful, and your DM might raise his eyebrow in a disapproving manner whenever you abuse the Naberius/Hellfire blast combo cheese. So be careful of that.

As the others said, really it comes down to what you want to do more.
Warlocks have slightly better single-target DPR, are less stat reliant (it's possible to go the entire game without forcing a single save, and just use utility/saveless Invocations so you only need Cha to actually use your higher level invocations. Not a problem if you plan on multiclassing) and have better multiclassing and PrC advancement options.
Dragonfire Adepts have stronger feat options, better Battlefield control and stronger ability synergy (Con instead of Cha)

Of course, then you can start looking at specific cheesy builds like Glaivelock and Hellfire Warlock/binder as detailed above, and your options get really confusing.

[Malroth]

Well its pretty easy for a hellfire warlock to just take "Obtain familliar" to gain a raven companion that can UMD wands of Lesser Restoration to facilitate all day blasting So even if Naberious binding doesn't fly at you're table you're not completely out of options.

[Socratov]

I would like to point out that with eldritch essences like Nauseating, Hindering, and Beshadowed Blast... Warlocks can do pretty well at lockdown, with a side of damage to boot. Chilling Tentacles is also pretty good at battlefield control, since few opponents will actually have freedom of movement active.
this. besides, warlock as fell flight as well and no cooldown on his laserbeam, a DFA as the standard breathweapon cooldown IIRC

Well its pretty easy for a hellfire warlock to just take "Obtain familliar" to gain a raven companion that can UMD wands of Lesser Restoration to facilitate all day blasting So even if Naberious binding doesn't fly at you're table you're not completely out of options.

If not even binding naberius flies don't go dps lock since the Dm isn't going to give you any love for a class that needs love badly anyway. if so, go crafter and disabler lock instead:
warlock 12/chameleon 2/warlock 6

Congratulations, you can now make anything and everything (and use it), when you don't you have an extra invocation to choice. only reqs are human and able laerner (good feat anyway). Pump Cha and start socializing, and lay down the debuffs and BFC as well as be the designated itemizer. You will be able to say Ï've got an app for that".

[Edge of Dreams]

this. besides, warlock as fell flight as well and no cooldown on his laserbeam, a DFA as the standard breathweapon cooldown IIRC

You do not remember correctly. A DFA can use his dragonbreath every round. However, a DFA may not use the same dragonbreath *special effect* on two consecutive rounds. So, he ends up alternating between debuff and damage effects, or two different damage effects. But he can always use his standard Fire breath every round.

[Twilightwyrm]

There's also one more thing about Warlock, you can use them effectively regardless of your actual Ability scores. Charisma only affects save DCs, and touch AC is often pitiful.

Funny thing about the Warlock. They could enter play with straight 8s for ability scores, and still provide a decent contribution to the party, with only a slight loss in Eldritch Blast accuracy. This perhaps makes them the only NAD class in the game.

[Socratov]

Funny thing about the Warlock. They could enter play with straight 8s for ability scores, and still provide a decent contribution to the party, with only a slight loss in Eldritch Blast accuracy. This perhaps makes them the only NAD class in the game.

Yup, a warlock coudl function with an int 3 and enough str to carry hsi equipment and for the rest non-zeroes in abilityscores... and still do stuff. :smallamused:

[Fable Wright]

Funny thing about the Warlock. They could enter play with straight 8s for ability scores, and still provide a decent contribution to the party, with only a slight loss in Eldritch Blast accuracy. This perhaps makes them the only NAD class in the game.

Interestingly enough, Dragonfire Adepts are the other NAD class. While Con is very nice to have, it isn't crucial with Entangling Exhalation. A lot of DFA stuff is actually NAD, despite having Con and Cha based saving throws.

[GutterFace]

So in recent years i have played both!

DFA is slightly better. IF you cant use DMG. Glaive/Claw give 'lock the boost a bit. but both classes are really similar.

they can be invisible or fly or whatever. as for baleful utterance and DFA take extra invocation and pick it up from the warlock list. but you don't need that you know why, Acid breath, or Sonic, just melt/crush whatever is in front of you.

Lastly i have found in mid level games that the DFA is a touch better (level 7-10) you never have to roll to hit. force your DM to roll saves all the time, it's far more satisfying.

also as a DFA you can double stack shaken/sicken/fearful effects whenever you breathe.

i found playing both that DFA was a bit more fun. a touch more interesting but honestly there isnt much to separate the two.

[Psyren]

Warlock 1/Cleric 3/ Eldritch Disciple 10/Binder 1 (Bind to Naberius)/Hellfire Warlock 3/Anything else

Allows for solid progression of BAB, limitless blasts, good cleric spellcasting progression cast 6th level spells), ability healing for the Hellfire Blasts, and can heal and/or buff yourself and other members. One feat (battle caster) and you use blasts in mithril full plate without any chance of failure due to armor. Cast divine power on yourself and eldritch glaive and you will basically never miss for 3-4 attacks, as it is just a touch attack.

One more level of cleric or a prestige class that advances spellcasting and you would gain access to 7th level spells as well.

Sha'ir is a good one too as it can enter both Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple, getting you easy 9ths and Dark invocations. The Charisma focus helps your invocations as well.

Sha'ir 3/Warlock 1/Eldritch Theurge 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Eldritch Disciple 5. With the Eldritch Disciple adaptation, you don't even need Turn Undead and can drop SE.

[Socratov]

So in recent years i have played both!

DFA is slightly better. IF you cant use DMG. Glaive/Claw give 'lock the boost a bit. but both classes are really similar.

they can be invisible or fly or whatever. as for baleful utterance and DFA take extra invocation and pick it up from the warlock list. but you don't need that you know why, Acid breath, or Sonic, just melt/crush whatever is in front of you.

Lastly i have found in mid level games that the DFA is a touch better (level 7-10) you never have to roll to hit. force your DM to roll saves all the time, it's far more satisfying.

also as a DFA you can double stack shaken/sicken/fearful effects whenever you breathe.

i found playing both that DFA was a bit more fun. a touch more interesting but honestly there isnt much to separate the two.

true, though the warlock's crafting is pretty solid in power as well. and whether you go for to hit or forcing rolling saves, I think I'd pick to-hit, if only becuase I'm in more control of what I'm doing... YMMV

[GutterFace]

Yes crafting is pretty nice and so is the UMD warlocks have.

Our Main DM plays with 1's as critical failures (bow strings snap etc.) so id much rather have him roll saves them me tripping and falling ahahaha

[Tvtyrant]

You missed some of the Warlock's pros.

While your points are fine and valid, and I'll agree that an out of the box Dragonfire Adept is mechanically superior to a Warlock, the Warlock class became significantly better with splatbook support. They can do some (fairly decent) battlefield control, they can do large amounts of damage, and they are less reliant on stats than traditional melee characters, due to a lack of Power Attack and a focus on Touch attacks.

I will also say that if you want battlefield control and out of combat utility, Dragonfire Adept is your class. Their invocations are great, they can do a lot of lockdown, and they do many things better than the Warlock.

However, Warlocks, and Glaivelocks in particular, have more in-combat tactical options and damage potential than Dragonfire Adepts do, being able to modulate between melee powerhouse, ranged attacker, and battlefield controller effortlessly.

They're both valid options, and have unique and powerful options open to them, it mostly depends on how you want to play.

And I just got ninja'd.

I counter your Dragon Magazine with Savage Species, which can net the DFA the multiheaded template. The multiheaded template allows each head to make a seperate breath attack (if you have one), meaning that a two headed evil human can use the massive, silly Tiamat attack twice in the same turn.

[gorfnab]

Warlock 1/Cleric 3/ Eldritch Disciple 10/Binder 1 (Bind to Naberius)/Hellfire Warlock 3/Anything else

Allows for solid progression of BAB, limitless blasts, good cleric spellcasting progression cast 6th level spells), ability healing for the Hellfire Blasts, and can heal and/or buff yourself and other members. One feat (battle caster) and you use blasts in mithril full plate without any chance of failure due to armor. Cast divine power on yourself and eldritch glaive and you will basically never miss for 3-4 attacks, as it is just a touch attack.

One more level of cleric or a prestige class that advances spellcasting and you would gain access to 7th level spells as well.
And here is how you get 9th level spells and Dark Invocations

Hellfire Ur-lock
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 8

Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Mindbender (with Mindsight feat) 1/ Eldritch Disciple 5

[Twilightwyrm]

I counter your Dragon Magazine with Savage Species, which can net the DFA the multiheaded template. The multiheaded template allows each head to make a seperate breath attack (if you have one), meaning that a two headed evil human can use the massive, silly Tiamat attack twice in the same turn.

I'm now imagining a BBEG cultist DFA somewhere, with five heads from the multi-headed template, using all five to breath Fivefold Breaths of Tiamat. He'll probably die form all the blowback damage, but it would be a great "final strike".

[Socratov]

I'm now imagining a BBEG cultist DFA somewhere, with five heads from the multi-headed template, using all five to breath Fivefold Breaths of Tiamat. He'll probably die form all the blowback damage, but it would be a great "final strike".

must not reference yu-gi-oh, must not reference yu-gi-oh....

oh what the hell...

"I have blue eyes ultimate dragon! This duel is over!"

"Not yet, the heart of the cards will give the one card that can destroy you"

*blahblahblah*

[Draz74]

I agree with the people who are saying that the DFA is marginally better "out of the box," but that Warlock is slightly more optimizable if you mix in enough "support" material from various books.

I like DFA better overall, but that's largely because it's such an easy class to play. Also because of one very important advantage that I don't think anyone else has remembered: 2 more skill points than Warlock.

But on the whole, they're very close in power to each other, so you're really best off just choosing based on playstyle/character concept.


Arguably never needs to make an attack roll. In addition to being less MAD, you can also theoretically wear whatever armor and shields you want, because you don't care about the armor check penalty to your Skills or To-Hit rolls.
Nitpick: Don't forget that your Initiative will also be affected if you wear armor nonproficiently. You have been warned.


You do not remember correctly. A DFA can use his dragonbreath every round. However, a DFA may not use the same dragonbreath *special effect* on two consecutive rounds. So, he ends up alternating between debuff and damage effects, or two different damage effects. But he can always use his standard Fire breath every round.

Nitpick: except after using Fivefold Breath of Tiamat. Using it shuts down all your breath weapons for one round. Meh.

Also, when you are alternating between debuff and damage effects, your damage effects are also debuff effects if you use Entangling Exhalation.

[silverwolfer]

Ooo i have a suggestion..


Dragonborn of bahamut, comboed with warlock


Fire and rays of death..and you can change your dragons breath without the need of feats and stuff.