[3.5e] What the Gestalt??

[Kelvin360]

So, I've heard/seen a lot of mention of the 'gestalt' variant of character creation and, while I've looked it up on the SRD, I don't really think I have a handle on it. Thusly, an explanation would be appreciated.

At first, I thought it was simply mix-matching two classes into one (a 5th level bardbarian is 5 bard/5 barbarian in one class, taking the highest skills per level/HP/saves from either and using that on the character, but it's still just 5th level), but now I'm just not sure. I've seen examples of things like 5 Rogue/3 Warblade-1 Swordsage-1 Wizard, and haven't the foggiest clue how that's supposed to tie in.

So, yeah, that's basically it. How exactly does this work?

[Qc Storm]

Pretty simple. Instead of having one "class slot" you have two.

So you could start as a Wizard/Barb, with spells, D12 HP, good will and fort saves, familiar, etc.

I don't think anything prevents you from multiclassing any of these classes. So you could later branch your Barb into Fighter, while still remaining Wizard.

[nedz]

Gestalt rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Multiclassing in gestalt can get weird.

Say, at first level, you have a Barbarian 1 // Bard 1. But then for next level, you "multiclass" into the Fighter 1 // Rogue 1 "gestalt class." This would make you a Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 // Bard 1/Rogue 1. Your first level gave you d12 HP, (6+int)x4 skill points, +1 BaB, bardic music, rage, etc. Your second level gave you d10 HP, 8+int skill points, +1 BaB, Bonus Feat, Sneak Attack +1d6, etc. So instead of just looking at the best thing each whole side gets, you look at each level and see what's best.

As an aside, this is why fractional bonuses are almost necessary in gestalt.

[gorfnab]

Gestalt Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239352)


So what we get is putting two classes together, losing the crap, keeping the cream. So first off we look at things that every class has, because these are the things we take the better of. For each example we will be considering a wizard combined with barbarian.

HD: Every class has a hit die, and unless you are combining wizard with sorcerer you will probably have a d6+. In our example you would get the barbarian's d12 hit die, ignoring the wizard's d4

Saves: every class has at least 1 good save (commoner excluded), some have two. If your classes have different good saves, you keep the good save progressions. In general you want at least 2 good save progressions, though 3 isn't particularly difficult. In our example you would get the barbarian's good fortitude save, the wizard's good will save, but you would still have a poor reflex save progression because neither class has a good reflex save.

Skills: You get the higher number of skills that either class would give, and you can choose them from both lists. In our example you would get the barbarian's 4+Int modifier skills per level (x4 at first), but could choose skills from both the barbarian and wizard skill lists.

BAB: You get the higher Base Attack Bonus that the two classes offer. In our example you would get the barbarian's full base attack.

Class features: If two classes offer the same (non-spellcasting) class feature you keep the better of the two. If you were a combination of cleric and paladin, you would only get the cleric's turn undead, though you would get spell casting from both paladin and cleric (and you keep track of each set of spells separately.)

[Kelvin360]

Thank you, everyone, for your helpful responses. Though, I do have another question in response to a response.



As an aside, this is why fractional bonuses are almost necessary in gestalt.

What does the term 'fractional bonuses' mean?

[gorfnab]

Thank you, everyone, for your helpful responses. Though, I do have another question in response to a response.



What does the term 'fractional bonuses' mean?
Unearthed Arcana - sidebar on page 73

[DonDuckie]

What does the term 'fractional bonuses' mean?

It means classes such as sorc and wizard hava BAB 1/2 x class levels
rogue and cleric have 3/4 x class levels
fighter, etc. have 1 x class levels

If you don't use fractional values(and just take the best - +1 BAB if one of the classes increase at that level) you could get characters like

1: wizard 1st // fighter 1st - BAB 1 (from fighter 1)
2: wizard 2nd // sorcerer 1st - BAB 2 (from wizard 2 increase)
3: wizard 3nd // sorcerer 2nd - BAB 3 (from sorcerer 2 increase)
4: wizard 4th // sorcerer 3rd - BAB 4 (from wizard 4 increase)
...
20: wizard 20th // fighter 1/sorcerer 19 - BAB 20

with fractional increment you would get the better of 1/2 for sorcerer and 1/2 for wizard, so you would only end up with BAB 10 at level 20.

and the same goes for saves.

(I just noticed - when rechecking the question - that nobody asked about this last part, but now I've written it.... so post)

[Vaz]

Massive amounts of multiclassing in standard play can result in poor BAB; for example, taking more than 5 non full BAB characters leads to 5 levels with 0 for Base Attack progression; and with a maximum of 15 BAB, losing 4 of those to become a maximum of +11 is fairly poor, especially when other Characters are typically pairing up full Caster progression with a full BAB progression (Duskblade or Warblade and Wizard, Swordsage and a Druid, or a Cloistered Cleric and Crusader for example).

When you do a lot of 1 level dips, you can get stupid low BAB.

[Glimbur]

It also might help to write out the classes in table form, rather than just as a list. At least, while you are learning the system it will be easier.

Compare Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 / Barbarian 1 // Duskblade 1 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 1 to

{table=head]Class 1|Class 2

Rogue 1|Duskblade 1

Fighter 1|Wizard 1

Ranger 1|Cleric 1

Barbarian 1|Sorcerer 1

[/table]

At least this poor character has full BAB... that's about all I can say for him/her though.

[Flickerdart]

It's pretty clear that whoever was writing gestalt rules didn't think very much about multiclassing and thought that people would go straight 20 with both classes or maybe have PrCs on one side. Still, they had the foresight to note that "class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class" so Rogue 20//Barbarian 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 19 does not actually end up with 20d6 Sneak Attack.

[Darth Stabber]

It's pretty clear that whoever was writing gestalt rules didn't think very much about multiclassing and thought that people would go straight 20 with both classes or maybe have PrCs on one side. Still, they had the foresight to note that "class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class" so Rogue 20//Barbarian 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 19 does not actually end up with 20d6 Sneak Attack.

No but you can go warblade1/rogue19//scout20 for full sneak attack and skirmish, or rogue20//CA ninja for full sneak attack and sudden strike. (Warblade included for sudden leap, to allow full attack and movement)