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Shator
2013-01-07, 07:50 PM
So I've posted a few times on here with player issues. I've come to realize that I, being a newb and sometimes a somewhat socially awkward person am part of the problem. Here's some of the mistakes I am coming to realize I've made and am hoping don't break the game.

1. Wanting so badly to please everyone
As the game has developed I've gotten a clear idea now of how I want to run the game, but let this get thrown to the side because I want to please everyone. This means making the game everything to everyone though, which I certainly cannot do.

2. Not starting with a clear idea of how I want the game to be
As I progressed I did get a clear idea of how I want the game to be, and at least half the players find the direction appealing. Some not so much. This in a way ties in with numero uno.

3. Not setting expectations
Yeah, this kind of ties in to 1 and 2 as well. Now I've set expectations more clearly, but I should have done this to begin with because it has left certain group members confused about things up to this point, and some might not be so happy with certain things I have clarified.

5. Not getting a good grasp of how experienced the other players are, or making sure that the other players in the group also understand that not everyone in the group has the experience that they have.
I may not be an experienced DM but I'm an experienced player. As an experienced player I expected (wrongly) everyone to have a similar level of experience. Because of this I misunderstood the in-game actions of one player (and again, another more experienced player was similarly harsh and complained to me about them) assuming that they were more experienced and should know better.

Hopefully my players will forgive me for these things and we can continue to just have fun. In fact most have made pretty clear that they all ready have.

If you are a newb like me, I definitely recommend avoiding these issues, or at least fixing them once you catch yourself falling into these traps.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-07, 10:20 PM
Handy list, but... what was #4?

SowZ
2013-01-07, 10:25 PM
Handy list, but... what was #4?

Newb DM mistake number four was misnumbering DM lists.

Shator
2013-01-07, 11:55 PM
Caught me there.
I am reminded of a South Park joke now.

1. Collect Underpants
2. ?
3. Profit

SowZ
2013-01-08, 12:08 AM
Caught me there.
I am reminded of a South Park joke now.

1. Collect Underpants
2. ?
3. Profit

Seriously though, yeah, this is a good list that a number of people would do well to consider.

TuggyNE
2013-01-08, 12:34 AM
Newb DM mistake number four was misnumbering DM lists.

I was thinking it was something like "not finishing preparation". :smallwink:

Dopamine
2013-01-08, 08:20 PM
I was thinking it was something like "not finishing preparation". :smallwink:

You reminded me that "not finishing preparation" was pretty much my first mistake as a newb.

First adventure, myself and 3 other new players find ourselves preparing for our very first encounter. Passing through a forest as it was getting dark and a decent spot check warned us that we were being followed by wolves. Considering that these wolves were of the "have big teeth and see well in the dark" variety, we figured it was sound tactics to set up camp for the night, fire pit and all, so that we could see what we're fighting.

One short discussion and a long pause later... we realized none of us packed anything to start a fire :smalleek:

Oddly enough, we did have a lot of rope and a 10 foot pole.

Guizonde
2013-01-08, 08:43 PM
truly, the first mistake i made trying to dm:

never underestimate why rulebooks are doorstoppers, and improvise a one-shot off the cuff.
the dm should know ideally everything in the rulebook, or at least the core mechanics.

now, to go learn how to be a dm:smallredface:

Icewraith
2013-01-08, 08:51 PM
In order to run a game that is fun for everyone, you must learn to say "no."

Tengu_temp
2013-01-08, 08:54 PM
You must also learn to admit when you made a mistake. I've seen too many DMs who don't do that, as if they were afraid that the spotless pedestal of their authority would crumble.

doc neon
2013-01-10, 01:50 AM
With regards to #2, I would start with a game that's stated to be only a few sessions long, if it's your first time DMing. You can get a handle on how everything works, both you and your players can understand the mechanics, and you can always keep playing the same campaign if it's working out.

Ashtagon
2013-01-10, 03:17 AM
My first AD&D game...

Players rolled 3d6 seven times, in order. The seventh roll was for... character level.

Although to be sure, characters were intended to be "avatars" that the players would hop in and out of as necessary to guide the story.

Gnomish Wanderer
2013-01-10, 04:43 AM
Giving out way too much gold
Giving out practically no gold
Giving out way too much XP
Giving out practically no XP
Designing challenges 4-10+ character level for the lulz
Creating a high level DMPC to travel with the characters to get them out of high level challenges I created for the luls
Not understanding how damage was supposed to scale with level so gave out weapons that did increasing numbers of damage die
Misremembering entire plots of campaign details with other campaigns... as I was playing.

Yeah, Ive gotten a lot better since I was a youngling

Guizonde
2013-01-10, 10:14 AM
hope i'm not going on a tangent:

my DnDM (sorry) got into dm'ing with this tradition. his master took him under his wing and bought him a campaign book, and co-dm'ed with him the first 2 sessions before joining the pc's to show my dm all the possible problems encountered.

now my dm is actively searching for my campaign book (got it down to a few choices left).
anyone got similar traditions to budding dm's? just curious

another mistake as a newbie i made: if your pc's kill to death everything twice, the answer is not "add more monsters". nor is it "add more higher-level monsters".

SowZ
2013-01-10, 02:01 PM
hope i'm not going on a tangent:

my DnDM (sorry) got into dm'ing with this tradition. his master took him under his wing and bought him a campaign book, and co-dm'ed with him the first 2 sessions before joining the pc's to show my dm all the possible problems encountered.

now my dm is actively searching for my campaign book (got it down to a few choices left).
anyone got similar traditions to budding dm's? just curious

another mistake as a newbie i made: if your pc's kill to death everything twice, the answer is not "add more monsters". nor is it "add more higher-level monsters".

Why not? Btw, I'd say an answer would be better tactics, too.

Guizonde
2013-01-10, 03:02 PM
Why not? Btw, I'd say an answer would be better tactics, too.

guess that goes in the brainfart category... like my dm forgetting paladins are immune to status effects (basically)

two more i guess:

take into account status effects.

brainfarts. don't have them.

Vaz
2013-01-11, 08:45 AM
Not so much as DMing (I spent a lot of time lurking here fro advice DMing and reading campaign logs), but playing, my first one;

1. A Fighter 20 with a Speed Keen Scimitars Two Weapon Fighting character with Greater Weapon Specialization and Greater Two Weapon Fighting is AWESOME 7 ATTACKS DOING +5 Damage and a Critical Range 15-20? AWESOME. What's that, a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon? Awesome. What's that? Oh, he Breathes on me? Right, I've failed my Reflex save, how much damage do I take? 24D10? Make it easy, that's average 132 right? I have 120 HP... oh right.

Wizard - Well there goes the Meat Shield.

Thajocoth
2013-01-11, 06:18 PM
I've made every classic newbie mistake, despite knowing them all ahead of time & trying to avoid them.

As a player:
- Made a complex character as my first character ever based on what I thought were the qualities that would be fun to play, not realizing how much extra work I was actually giving myself.
- Played a druid (tree person that transforms into glowing bees) who hated everything to do with the Far Realm to the degree that a Lawful Stupid paladin hates evil. The party's Psion made some very Far Realm relevant choices, including the deity he multiclassed into a cleric of. I retired that one.
- The one time I played 3.5: Half minotaur gnome fighter. Good alignment in a 1/2 good 1/2 evil party.
- Super hero campaign, wiped out another party member's nemesis (brother) with mind control before he got to do anything to him

As a DM:
- Created my own mini-setting for my first try DMing
- Started the game in an inn
- Failed to give good explanations for the purpose of driving the party to want to find answers
- Created too much lore & pushed it on the party
- Had a more powerful character (lvl 4 > lvl 2) escort them through some sewers (though, I let the party's cleric decide the more powerful cleric's actions)
- Made time between loot too long (but still gave enough loot eventually... I just wanted the Dragon's Hoard to be a decent size.)
- Added a homebrew add-on thingy no one chose to take. (Half Gelatinous, in 4e, adds bonuses & penalties to try to balance itself out without taking any feats or whatever.)
- Ruled against things I couldn't find rules for (like dumping ale on a square to see if an invisible monster is there)
- Planned too far in advance
- Some railroading when it got near the end of the part I planned that was bad
- Bad at descriptions

-----

Now I stick to playing "HULK SMASH!" type characters, don't DM, and am much happier for it.

This experience is actually part of what made me realize that int is not the most important stat in real life, and that I don't have a 25 int and 5 in everything else. Int is probably not even my highest stat. Con & Wis are likely both higher, and my Cha seems to be decent as well. It I had more exercise, Int would likely be my lowest stat.

SowZ
2013-01-11, 06:41 PM
I've made every classic newbie mistake, despite knowing them all ahead of time & trying to avoid them.

As a player:
- Made a complex character as my first character ever based on what I thought were the qualities that would be fun to play, not realizing how much extra work I was actually giving myself.
- Played a druid (tree person that transforms into glowing bees) who hated everything to do with the Far Realm to the degree that a Lawful Stupid paladin hates evil. The party's Psion made some very Far Realm relevant choices, including the deity he multiclassed into a cleric of. I retired that one.
- The one time I played 3.5: Half minotaur gnome fighter. Good alignment in a 1/2 good 1/2 evil party.
- Super hero campaign, wiped out another party member's nemesis (brother) with mind control before he got to do anything to him

As a DM:
- Created my own mini-setting for my first try DMing
- Started the game in an inn
- Failed to give good explanations for the purpose of driving the party to want to find answers
- Created too much lore & pushed it on the party
- Had a more powerful character (lvl 4 > lvl 2) escort them through some sewers (though, I let the party's cleric decide the more powerful cleric's actions)
- Made time between loot too long (but still gave enough loot eventually... I just wanted the Dragon's Hoard to be a decent size.)
- Added a homebrew add-on thingy no one chose to take. (Half Gelatinous, in 4e, adds bonuses & penalties to try to balance itself out without taking any feats or whatever.)
- Ruled against things I couldn't find rules for (like dumping ale on a square to see if an invisible monster is there)
- Planned too far in advance
- Some railroading when it got near the end of the part I planned that was bad
- Bad at descriptions

-----

Now I stick to playing "HULK SMASH!" type characters, don't DM, and am much happier for it.

This experience is actually part of what made me realize that int is not the most important stat in real life, and that I don't have a 25 int and 5 in everything else. Int is probably not even my highest stat. Con & Wis are likely both higher, and my Cha seems to be decent as well. It I had more exercise, Int would likely be my lowest stat.

Keep in mind that 18 in a stat is advancing the field of astro-physics level in int, or Olympian level in a physical stat. Hehe. In real life, Cha may be the most important stat. If Wis represents self control and discipline/work ethic, good Wis paired with either/or good Cha/good Int could be most important.

15 in a mental stat is probably the highest a person would reasonably have without being a total genius in that area. Though systems with mental stats probably don't simulate real life very well. A system with different skills and varying types of intelligences as part of a long skill list are probably more accurate.

Thajocoth
2013-01-11, 07:32 PM
Keep in mind that 18 in a stat is advancing the field of astro-physics level in int, or Olympian level in a physical stat. Hehe. In real life, Cha may be the most important stat. If Wis represents self control and discipline/work ethic, good Wis paired with either/or good Cha/good Int could be most important.

15 in a mental stat is probably the highest a person would reasonably have without being a total genius in that area. Though systems with mental stats probably don't simulate real life very well. A system with different skills and varying types of intelligences as part of a long skill list are probably more accurate.

Used exaggeration for emphasis.

My senses & luck are above average. (American cheese to me is probably about a sharp (but not very sharp) cheddar to the average person in strength. I've got about 10/20 vision, 35/-5 hearing. (Healthy tested for numbers for hearing are 100/100, and are how quiet a sound you can hear in each ear. Lower = better.) Friends have compared me to Spiderman, Daredevil & Wolverine.) I do tend to make good decisions when I follow my instincts, even if I don't always understand why. For most bad decisions, I can point to where I ignored my instincts. Wis > 10 (probably my highest score)

People tend to like me, with the exception of people that have trouble fitting my weirdness within their worldview, which I've found to generally be "one in a crowd". I've been told I'm attractive (despite clearly being a little too big; gotta lose about 30lbs). I'm generally able to get what I need from others when other people might get themselves stonewalled. Cha > 10 (but not too high)

I'm very warm. Like, my body seems to give off a little more heat than average. I suspect this is related to why I tend to not get sick. A cold that lasts a week for my girl lasts about 3-4 hours for me. Sick days I've taken are almost never legit. I heal fine, and while I'm a wuss about feeling pain, I can honestly take more than I let on if I had to. (My girl tests this regularly, being very much a biter.) It's surprising with my horrible junk diet that I'm only 30-40lbs overweight. I ate nothing but Pizza Hut & McDonald's for, like, 2 months straight, a year & a half ago, and my diet since is only marginally better than that. There's still tomato sauce in every other meal (usually Prego). Imagine what might happen if I could eat normal food. Con > 10

I just started yoga yesterday and boy do my legs hurt. Str < 10, Dex < 10 (definitely dump stats)

I have specialized knowledge and random facts. Int = [9-11] with skill points in a few knowledge things.

Is problem solving Int or Wis? I enjoy problem solving for programming the same way I enjoy it for video games or building with legos. I do tend to do better at things I enjoy, and I'm decently skilled in this. If this is int, then I'd say it's a skill focus of some sort. If Wis, then it's consistent.

That can likely help approximate my stats much better.

-----

Long ago, my body, logical mind and emotional self were not harmonious. The result was that my logical mind essentially took over with a coup and declared int to be the most important thing. I'm glad the parts of myself are more willing to work together than they used to be. Logical mind has humbled to accept the others, emotional self has stopped demanding it's way, and the body is still there.

navar100
2013-01-11, 09:54 PM
Having first learned about roleplaying in 1987 and playing some game called D&D, I tried out another game. Not so different, right? It was a game called Paranoia.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-11, 10:32 PM
some stats are easier to estimate than others; for example, how far/high can you reliably jump? how long can you run for? how's you eyesight/hearing? how often does your magic device computer break down? :smalltongue:


one of the mistakes I used to make as a player was writing up multi-page backstories for characters, particularly since our group tended to run shorter campaigns. It wasn't that the DM didn't care to use an of my great ideas, it was just that he had plenty of his own to deal with. That, and there where 3-5 other people who all thought THEY where our partie's shinning savior/protagonist of the story/only real hope for success. :smallbiggrin:

Tengu_temp
2013-01-12, 01:41 AM
Keep in mind that 18 in a stat is advancing the field of astro-physics level in int, or Olympian level in a physical stat. Hehe. In real life, Cha may be the most important stat. If Wis represents self control and discipline/work ethic, good Wis paired with either/or good Cha/good Int could be most important.

15 in a mental stat is probably the highest a person would reasonably have without being a total genius in that area. Though systems with mental stats probably don't simulate real life very well. A system with different skills and varying types of intelligences as part of a long skill list are probably more accurate.

This is just not true. You can easily advance over 18 in a DND 3e stat with templates, levels, or even age. 18 is not the pinnacle of human ability, it's just very, very good. How good, exactly? If you assume that most people roll 3d6 for each stat, then roughly 0,5% of the total population has 18 in a chosen ability, and 2,7% has 18 in something. One in 216 people has 18 intelligence. That's really smart, but not Einstein level.

SowZ
2013-01-12, 02:33 AM
This is just not true. You can easily advance over 18 in a DND 3e stat with templates, levels, or even age. 18 is not the pinnacle of human ability, it's just very, very good. How good, exactly? If you assume that most people roll 3d6 for each stat, then roughly 0,5% of the total population has 18 in a chosen ability, and 2,7% has 18 in something. One in 216 people has 18 intelligence. That's really smart, but not Einstein level.

I don't assume that, really. 19 is about the highest stat someone can have in something sans again bonus/penalties. (No one surpasses level 4-5 in RL.)

I don't think 1 in 216 people are as smart at age 20 as Einstiend was at age 20. It doesn't work. Just like 1 in 216 people aren't as strong as an olympic wieghtlifter. So assuming your roll 3d6 just doesn't work. Besides, then you get people with 17 Str and 4 Con. And 16 Cha but 3 Int. Roll 3d6 isn't the most logical way to assume stats. 18 is just about the edge of human potential. With 19 being at the absolute edge before old ages.

It also means 2.7 percent of the population is severely disabled.

Guizonde
2013-01-13, 12:53 PM
dm'd my first pathfinder campaign. cool, but headache worthy (called 30min recess while a painkiller took effect):

even if you're using a campaign book, take notes about profiles instead of flipping through the pages.

even if you use the rule of cool, a triple crit with a warbow hitting (and killing) two enemies is probably going easy on the pc's... must augment mook survivability.

improvising a luck mechanic to determine if they're attacked, pickpocketed, stumble into clue-areas, etc... i must refine it, the potential for awesomeness is to great.

although they had fun and we stopped right as the plot thickens (yay! 2nd dm'ing possible), i must keep in mind to take notes and everything into account. yes, my players are lucky devils (worst stat in all 5 profiles is a 12 int... for the barbarian!) and roll a near unnatural number of crits and natural 20's, i must up the difficulty, and learn all the subtleties of terror, flanking, etc...

or kick up the difficulty to munchkin levels, but having the srd open next to me will help with the various tests, until i get a hang of it.

Lanaya
2013-01-13, 02:53 PM
- Having 10 players in the first campaign I ever ran, none of whom had ever played before either
- Making it a 5v5 PvP campaign
- Encouraging 3 members of one of the parties to betray and kill the other 2, who then had to roll up new characters as a new party
- Giving those 3 traitors high-powered undead templates (two liches and a vampire) as a reward for killing their fellow PCs while they and everyone else were level 3

Surprisingly enough, that actually turned out to be a really awesome and memorable campaign, and not just in a kind of "so bad it's good" way.

holywhippet
2013-01-14, 09:38 PM
My DM for the Dark Heresy games I used to play insisted on everyone fleshing out their character with plenty of background details, personality etc. so we could role play properly. Of course, he always ran games where the odds of dying were pretty high making your efforts a waste of time.

In my first ever D&D 3.0 campaign I took a monk since in my starting scenario I'd be a recently rescued prisoner with no equipment. Seemed fine in theory, it took several weeks of play and studying the rules to fully comprehend the depth of my mistake.

1337 b4k4
2013-01-14, 10:04 PM
As a DM:

Throwing out rules before they've been tried. Regardless of how they read on paper, you should always try a system as built before you start throwing out rules. Sometimes bits and pieces fit together in ways you don't see on reading.

Guizonde
2013-01-14, 10:34 PM
As a DM:

Throwing out rules before they've been tried. Regardless of how they read on paper, you should always try a system as built before you start throwing out rules. Sometimes bits and pieces fit together in ways you don't see on reading.

too true, and i've also found the opposite concerning certain bardic powers. 1/2 the bard's level, his wisdom modifier, a d20 + representation bonus versus a character's will save to which you add his bluff levels and charisma levels ( i think).

so obtuse my dm and i looked through all the rulebooks and ended up using 2nd ed's version: d20 + rep bonus + cha modifier versus a will save. my dm reminded me of rule 0 and that streamlining for flavor and efficiency helps greatly.

i highly recommend starting to dm under an experienced dm's wing instead of "going it alone"

Shator
2013-01-15, 06:52 PM
another mistake as a newbie i made: if your pc's kill to death everything twice, the answer is not "add more monsters". nor is it "add more higher-level monsters".

I fell into that one too, but have started to get a better feel now for how many monsters of what level I should be putting them up against. It actually takes some time to get a handle on "what monsters are going to totally slaughter these guys easily, and which ones are the player characters going to just walk all over almost effortlessly?" CR helps, but only so much with figuring this one out.

I've also started getting better at setting up encounters with monsters they have very very little chance of handling in direct combat and thus forcing them to find other ways to deal with them, if they don't want to just be slaughtered wholesale ( as in they need to run away, hide, use diplomacy, better tactics, use the environment to their advantage, etc...).

Getting a party to use other methods of solving problems than just going around trying to fight things head on takes some work, both on their part, and on mine. A really solid encounter, where they have to somehow deal with the monster, but have almost no hope of success if they just take it on directly, requires that I spend more time setting up encounters, and that I do so more intelligently. But I find such encounters more rewarding, and some of the players immediately found that they prefer them, while others are coming around to the idea too.


As a DM:

Throwing out rules before they've been tried. Regardless of how they read on paper, you should always try a system as built before you start throwing out rules. Sometimes bits and pieces fit together in ways you don't see on reading.

Yeah this one is tricky too, and can definitely go wrong. However so far I've found that some experimentation is OK, so long as I manage to recognize when I've screwed up with a house rule, or thrown out a rule I shouldn't have, and correct the issue. Fortunately a few of the players are a lot more experienced with the rules than I am, so they are pretty good at pointing out things that could have negative effects that I might not have foreseen as well.