Shadowrun 5

[pencilmage]

Anyone else excited about the launch of Shadowrun 5 this summer?

Heres the link... (http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2012/12/21/the-year-of-shadowrun/)

[Science Officer]

Ah, neat. Had not heard about that.

Hoping for:
-stream-lined matrix rules (as the blurb promises)
-less over-powered magic
-a rules and character-creation system less intimidating to new players

I also hope they don't advance the world another 20 or 30 years, but that's probably unavoidable. Rather difficult as it is to get players up to speed on a century of alt/future-history...

[pencilmage]

The character creation is the part that kills my games. Everyone would rather play a pre-made toon :-p

[Seerow]

Grittier and more deadly? Well I guess my GM will like that.

Faster char gen, streamlined matrix rules, and more gear sounds fun. The main thing they need to get right for me however is to fix the scaling discrepency between Magic and not magic. Magic generally has much higher (or limitless) potential, while not magic hits cap practically at character generation. Magic generally improves exclusively with Karma, while not magic improves almost exclusively with money. I'd like to see more middle ground with both. Some sort of cap on magic, more room to grow for mundanes, and both requiring both money and karma to progress in similar proportions.

Edit: And please for the love of god, some more meaningful guidelines on karma/money gain per mission/session. That is the cause of more arguments, both online and offline, than any other thing in shadowrun in my experience. Some people think you should be getting 5-8 karma per session and won't get out of bed for under 30 grand for a mission. Other people think 2-3 karma on a several session long mission and enough money to replace ammo and keep a (low lifestyle) roof over your head for another month is a great deal. While both are valid playstyles, it'd be a lot nicer if the book actually laid out a sensible middle ground default, with explanations of what going higher/lower in rewards means for the game.

[DigoDragon]

And please for the love of god, some more meaningful guidelines on karma/money gain per mission/session.

Yes, yes, please, for the love of Luna's left hoof I hope they add guidelines for this!

My group thus far has played two major Shadowrun 4e campaigns. I ran the first and the Runners tended to live "paycheck-to-paycheck", but they got decent Karma awards. The second game run by another member had us all pretty rich by the 3rd session, but we were squeezing rocks to try and get Karma points to milk out.


Other than that, "Grittier and Deadlier"? :smallconfused:
I think 4e was pretty deadly enough. We houseruled in extra hit points for Runners just so we Could have campaigns instead of needing to create new characters every 3rd session. ...well, nothing stopping us form doing that again I suppose.

[Seerow]

Other than that, "Grittier and Deadlier"?
I think 4e was pretty deadly enough. We houseruled in extra hit points for Runners just so we Could have campaigns instead of needing to create new characters every 3rd session. ...well, nothing stopping us form doing that again I suppose.

My experience is groups are generally pretty durable as long as full automatic fire doesn't come into it. Spells will rarely take out a character in one shot unless being cast at force 6, higher if the group has counterspelling available. A common complaint from my GM is that our characters bounce back from anything that doesn't kill us far too easily. Between First Aid and the Heal Spell (both staples for any Shadowrunning team) a character can bounce back from the edge of death to full health in under a minute. Personally I think something like that is all but necessary to make the game work, but it bugs some people.

[Scowling Dragon]

My problem with Shadowrun is that its a static world. Its like a panorama.

It looks nice, but if you want to play with it, you end up wrecking the panorama.

I donno. If they could give hints on how to make ongoing LONG TERM plots that are more interesting then "Stop/ Help Corp"

[pencilmage]

I've never had an issue with players being overpowered with magic. Most of the guys I play with like the idea of going in blasting with their guns. I'm sure they've listened to their fans over the years and will end up giving us a game that is much more balanced. I agree though that they need a better way to scale things, other than money.

[Weezer]

My problem with Shadowrun is that its a static world. Its like a panorama.

It looks nice, but if you want to play with it, you end up wrecking the panorama.

I donno. If they could give hints on how to make ongoing LONG TERM plots that are more interesting then "Stop/ Help Corp"

How is that any different from any other detailed RPG campaign setting?

[ShadowFighter15]

I also hope they don't advance the world another 20 or 30 years, but that's probably unavoidable. Rather difficult as it is to get players up to speed on a century of alt/future-history...

I doubt we'll get another major leap like that for another few editions at least - it wasn't til 4e that it made the big leap to the 70s, after all. They are still advancing the timeline, though - I remember some sourcebooks in 4e that had their fluff set in 2071 and others that were in '72 or '73 so it looks like they might slow down to something more like a 'one year in reality=one year of metaplot' or something similar.

[DigoDragon]

My experience is groups are generally pretty durable as long as full automatic fire doesn't come into it.

Annnnd there's the rub with my group. As soon as the option for "More Dakka" comes up, it will be taken. This leads to the police calling the FBI for assistance, which then leads to the National Guard being mobilized (Yes, happened once)... :smallbiggrin:
But that's how my group thinks. With bullets.

Anyway, to go back to the durability of the average Runner, yeah they can take a Few hits before they go down. I just... I dunno the thought of 5e being More deadly makes me a bit nervous.



My problem with Shadowrun is that its a static world. Its like a panorama.

It looks nice, but if you want to play with it, you end up wrecking the panorama.

I donno. If they could give hints on how to make ongoing LONG TERM plots that are more interesting then "Stop/ Help Corp"

In pretty much any RPG, following the established setting's framework does lead to static gameplay. Don't be afraid to rock the boat. In the current campaign I'm playing in, the GM hinted that the break up between the UCAS-CAS might have been an elf conspiracy to weaken the two nations. Its not canon, but we don't question it because it is leading to some interesting adventures.

[Scowling Dragon]

How is that any different from any other detailed RPG campaign setting?

A campaign setting can be about improving something (Usually), and can have something cool to improve.

With a setting all ABOUT how **** everything is, im not sure how to fix anything without it becoming a sappy utopia.

[BRC]

A campaign setting can be about improving something (Usually), and can have something cool to improve.

With a setting all ABOUT how **** everything is, im not sure how to fix anything without it becoming a sappy utopia.

The idea is to scale down your expectations.
Shadowrun is a terrible game if you want to be the Great Savior, Chosen One and Champion of the People.
However, you can make it a very personal story. You can be Bob McDaniel, the Merc with a heart of gold who got together a group and drove out Yakuza thugs who were squeezing the neighborhood.

You could be Mister_Shadows, the Hacker Journalist who exposes that a local corporation has been poisoning the water supply in order to create a demand for an underselling pharmaceutical product.
You could be Silas Veneer, the Magician who destroyed a gang of Organ Harvesters.
You could be Andy Leness, a Rigger who used a camera drone to get some photographs, which he then used to blackmail a local politician into taking the money they had been skimming off the top, and putting it back into the school district.

You could be the mysterious Ms. Smoke, who breaks into an Ares research lab and steals the blueprints to their new water-purification system, publishing said blueprints online and allowing people around the world to spend a hundred Nuyen building something that Ares was going to sell for two thousand.

You could be all sorts of people making the world a better place. Just because you are not Saving the World does not mean you can't make a difference.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Why is this in Gaming (Other)? :smalltongue: I was worried this was somehow about another Shadowrun FPS game for a moment o.0

I'm seriously excited about Shadowrun 5e. I don't get to play enough shadowrun as it is, maybe I can convince my group a little easier if they don't groan and throw stuff at me when I suggest we make Shadowrun characters.

Yay, Shadowrun!

[The Glyphstone]

Why is this in Gaming (Other)? :smalltongue: I was worried this was somehow about another Shadowrun FPS game for a moment o.0

I'm seriously excited about Shadowrun 5e. I don't get to play enough shadowrun as it is, maybe I can convince my group a little easier if they don't groan and throw stuff at me when I suggest we make Shadowrun characters.

Yay, Shadowrun!

I don't know. Let's fix that.

[Scowling Dragon]

The idea is to scale down your expectations.
Shadowrun is a terrible game if you want to be the Great Savior, Chosen One and Champion of the People.

Nah I totally get that.....Thinking about it your right, and I was wrong in my assessments.

Maybe I was looking at a picture frame sideways considering I know how to make Dark Sun plots. One of the KINGS of "Everything has gone to ****" settings.

I think this is one issue I just didn't think about enough. Or my mindset was stuck in one form of gameplay because thats how my GM always did it- Thus boring me.

[LibraryOgre]

I doubt we'll get another major leap like that for another few editions at least - it wasn't til 4e that it made the big leap to the 70s, after all. They are still advancing the timeline, though - I remember some sourcebooks in 4e that had their fluff set in 2071 and others that were in '72 or '73 so it looks like they might slow down to something more like a 'one year in reality=one year of metaplot' or something similar.

I don't know that it's too much of a big leap.

Shadowrun is set, perpetually, 60 years into the future. It was released in 1989, and set in 2049. Then things started coming out in 2050, then 2051, etc. When 4th edition came out, it was 2009... and set in 2069, with the 2070s following thereafter. If it's coming out this year, the book will likely be set in 2073.

Me, I'm cautiously optimistic. I'd like to see some more streamlined rules, and a better discussion of what rules can be jettisoned to speed play.

[DigoDragon]

I'd like to see some more streamlined rules, and a better discussion of what rules can be jettisoned to speed play.

Hacking immediately comes to mind. :smallbiggrin:


Something I'd love to see the writers add for 5th edition is more details on the culture surrounding the 2070s. The RPG has made references to popular TV shows such as "Desert Wars" and "Urban Brawl", but specifics on what exactly happens in these is sparse with 4e.
(A little more detail would be helpful should a GM want their players to participate in them)

More art depicting the style of clothing and vehicles also helps paint the scenes for a better immersive experience I think.

[BRC]

Hacking immediately comes to mind. :smallbiggrin:


Something I'd love to see the writers add for 5th edition is more details on the culture surrounding the 2070s. The RPG has made references to popular TV shows such as "Desert Wars" and "Urban Brawl", but specifics on what exactly happens in these is sparse with 4e.
(A little more detail would be helpful should a GM want their players to participate in them)

More art depicting the style of clothing and vehicles also helps paint the scenes for a better immersive experience I think.
IIRC, Urban Brawl is a sport, kind of a combination between Motocross, Football, MMA, and Large-Scale Urban Renewal

[LibraryOgre]

Something I'd love to see the writers add for 5th edition is more details on the culture surrounding the 2070s. The RPG has made references to popular TV shows such as "Desert Wars" and "Urban Brawl", but specifics on what exactly happens in these is sparse with 4e.
(A little more detail would be helpful should a GM want their players to participate in them)


To put it another way, "I want them to reprint Shadowbeat."

If you can find this wonderful old supplement, do. It contains details on Urban Brawl, Combat Biker, and the state of various sports. There's a section on music, some discussion of what's on the trid, and even a brief TV schedule. Want to know more about chips and California Hots and BTLs? It's in there. All state of the art for 2054.

It is, in some ways, actually kinda prescient on the state of music.

[Raimun]

I think the basic rules should have more in-depth martial arts rules. There would be an actual difference between boxing and taekwondo.

Aside from that? I dunno? Make magic more powerful? Joking.

[DigoDragon]

To put it another way, "I want them to reprint Shadowbeat."

Okay, I'll go with that. I can understand the monetary advantage of printing a separate book containing all the aformentioned subject matter and I'd certainly buy such a suppliment if they did reprint it for 5th edition.

Until then I think I'll scour eBay. :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

Okay, I'll go with that. I can understand the monetary advantage of printing a separate book containing all the aformentioned subject matter and I'd certainly buy such a suppliment if they did reprint it for 5th edition.

Until then I think I'll scour eBay. :smallbiggrin:

It is worth it, and I wound up rebuying it because of that.

Really, it's the kind of supplement that would be GREAT in PDF... it's not the kind of thing you need in the middle of a session, usually, but it's great for background.

[Wagadodo]

Something I'd love to see the writers add for 5th edition is more details on the culture surrounding the 2070s. The RPG has made references to popular TV shows such as "Desert Wars" and "Urban Brawl", but specifics on what exactly happens in these is sparse with 4e.
(A little more detail would be helpful should a GM want their players to participate in them)
.

Desert Wars are where Corporations pit their armies against another corporations to see who has the best. War time games against competing corps. So why not let them get the practice, plus some revenue from media.

Urban Brawl. You have one person on a very fast bike. You have two people on very heavy bikes. Then you have a small team on foot. I can't remember the exact number. The goal is to get this ball that has a transmitter on it to the opposite teams goal. And pretty much everything goes. Guns, Martial Arts, Magic, what ever you can think of with the stuff you can bring into the areana.

[Anderlith]

I think Shadowrun 5 will be a must buy for me!

One problem I had with Shadowrun though was the lack of law support. I'd like to see several examples of different buildings securities & how different law enforcement agencies tackle a case. That way I know if siccing Knight Errant on my players for breaking into a factory is ill advised or not. Things like the average threat responses would go a long way (i.e. Do they send in a single drone, or do they send in a cruiser, what about cruise missiles? :P)

[DigoDragon]

Things like the average threat responses would go a long way (i.e. Do they send in a single drone, or do they send in a cruiser, what about cruise missiles? :P)

I used to play it by real-world parallel. A silent alarm going off at a warehouse elicits a patrol car with 1-2 cops to check it out. A heist where the perps are armed means dispatch sends 3-4 cruisers worth of officers.

Then there was the time the players had to break into a high-profile medical research lab to extract a Technomancer prisoner. That turned into the Cyberdyne office escape in Terminator 2. :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

Then there was the time the players had to break into a high-profile medical research lab to extract a Technomancer prisoner. That turned into the Cyberdyne office escape in Terminator 2. :smallbiggrin:

"Overkill is underrated" -Every runner ever, quoting Hannibal Smith.

However, also consider the zone. In a AAA security neighborhood, even a silent alarm is going to bring a few cars, even if 3 of the 4 are just "nearby". In a Z-zone, you might get a drone flyby if a bomb goes off.

[comicshorse]

Also the second you shoot at the initial police cruiser things go sideways. A fast response SWAT unit will be on the way to your position, neighbouring cruisers will be called in and Drones ( which will have the fastest response time) will be called in.

[DigoDragon]

"However, also consider the zone. In a AAA security neighborhood, even a silent alarm is going to bring a few cars, even if 3 of the 4 are just "nearby". In a Z-zone, you might get a drone flyby if a bomb goes off.

This is true. I hope 5th edition remembers to make a note of that.


I'm going to assume that the 4e source books that give location specific info will still be valid. Hopefully the world doesn't change too much to make them less than useful.

[Joval]

Am I the only one that doesn't mind the Matrix system, as is? I mean, I haven't used it terribly often, but it's fairly cookie cutter by my eyes. Technomancer is the only place that gets frustrating with all of the special rules, and how they are immune to this or that, or...wait...I think I get it now. As for regular Hackers, since you can start a character with every program, and a good 'link, I don't see much of a problem for that, but still, the Technomancer rules are a bit of a pain.

Still, I could definitely stand to see something different concerning the unbalance between magic and Cyber. It's such a tempting thing, seeing all that essence and money at Creation. It's hard not to blow it all and reach your cap. Magicians move slower, with no cap. At this point in my campaign, Dragons and Cyberzombies are all my mages don't annihilate. I think a more adaptable system with Cyber would be better.

[DigoDragon]

Am I the only one that doesn't mind the Matrix system, as is? I mean, I haven't used it terribly often, but it's fairly cookie cutter by my eyes. Technomancer is the only place that gets frustrating with all of the special rules, and how they are immune to this or that, or...wait...I think I get it now. As for regular Hackers, since you can start a character with every program, and a good 'link, I don't see much of a problem for that, but still, the Technomancer rules are a bit of a pain.

Interesting, as I seem to grasp Technomancers a bit better than hackers. The one really big problem I have with hackers is that their attributes are meaningless. I can make Forest Gump with a 1 Logic and run circles on the Matrix so long as my skill+program dice pool is high.
There are house rules for this of course, but it would be nice if 5th edition somehow worked it so hacking was closer to "Stat+skill" as most other things are. I like rule consistency.

[Deadline]

One problem I had with Shadowrun though was the lack of law support. I'd like to see several examples of different buildings securities & how different law enforcement agencies tackle a case. That way I know if siccing Knight Errant on my players for breaking into a factory is ill advised or not. Things like the average threat responses would go a long way (i.e. Do they send in a single drone, or do they send in a cruiser, what about cruise missiles? :P)

Two sourcebooks you might want to dig up:

Lone Star
Corporate Security Handbook

Both of those gave many excellent writeups on jurisdiction, response levels, and response times for a vast array of different situations. The Lone Star book, while specific to that law enforcement company, is easily adaptable to the other security companies, and has brief blurbs about them in a section about Lone Star's competitors.

The various location sourcebooks give brief details about security levels in their various neighborhoods, which is useful once you have a solid understanding of what kind of response each level entails.

[Earthwalker]

Urban Brawl. You have one person on a very fast bike. You have two people on very heavy bikes. Then you have a small team on foot. I can't remember the exact number. The goal is to get this ball that has a transmitter on it to the opposite teams goal. And pretty much everything goes. Guns, Martial Arts, Magic, what ever you can think of with the stuff you can bring into the areana.

Sorry but what is being described here is combat biker.
Urban brawl sets aside a 8 block area in some slum area of a city. The area is rigged with cameras for the fans back home. Two compeating (Corp sponsored) teams try to kill each other in this area.
This was also in shadowbeat, and was part of one adventure where the runners have to go into the compbat area to prevent an Aztechnology assassin and his pet dragon killing some players.

[LibraryOgre]

Urban Brawl. You have one person on a very fast bike. You have two people on very heavy bikes. Then you have a small team on foot. I can't remember the exact number. The goal is to get this ball that has a transmitter on it to the opposite teams goal. And pretty much everything goes. Guns, Martial Arts, Magic, what ever you can think of with the stuff you can bring into the areana.


Sorry but what is being described here is combat biker.
Urban brawl sets aside a 8 block area in some slum area of a city. The area is rigged with cameras for the fans back home. Two compeating (Corp sponsored) teams try to kill each other in this area.
This was also in shadowbeat, and was part of one adventure where the runners have to go into the compbat area to prevent an Aztechnology assassin and his pet dragon killing some players.

Actually, it's not really either.

Urban Brawl has 2 noncombatants... the medic and the Outrider. The Medic is just that. The outrider has a bike. You can't target the medic unless he's on the Outrider's bike (you can ALWAYS target that). However, it doesn't have any heavy bikers... IIRC, there are also 2 heavy gunner, 2 medium gunners, and 3 light scouts, but this may be wrong.

Combat biker, on the hand, is all about the bikes. Your only ground crew is a heavily armored goalie, who has a riot gun and a tetsubo. You're issued a limited amount of nonlethal ammo each turn, and the game plays out like a combination of motorcross (everyone's on bikes, and the track is pretty rough to increase drama), football (turns of variable length, with breaks in between), and hockey (heavily armored goalie, aspects of scoring), all with non-lethal ammo and crazy costumes.

[Timeras]

IIRC, there are also 2 heavy gunner, 2 medium gunners, and 3 light scouts, but this may be wrong.


There are four types (http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/ubl.htm) of offensive players.

[comicshorse]

There are four (http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/ubl.htm) types of offensive players.

In my experience there are many more types of offensive players :smallsmile:

[Telok]

In my experience there are many more types of offensive players :smallsmile:

The ones who eat beans before coming to game spring to mind.

[thamolas]

I don't know. I thought 3e was almost perfect and I just don't like 4e. 5e sounds like 4e on speed, which, in my opinion, is a bad thing.

[LibraryOgre]

I don't know. I thought 3e was almost perfect and I just don't like 4e. 5e sounds like 4e on speed, which, in my opinion, is a bad thing.

What did you not like about 4e?

[Zubrowka74]

Awwwwww, I just got the 20th anniversary edition like, six months ago! I pray for backward compatibility.


I think the basic rules should have more in-depth martial arts rules. There would be an actual difference between boxing and taekwondo.

Well, there is a mechanical difference but I agree there is little incentive to scpecialise in one of another. You're talking about the rule in Arsenal ?