3.5 Monsters VS Pathfinder PCs

[Cowboy_ninja]

Very simply, if D&D 3.5 MMIII says a monster is a CR 3, what is that equivalent to a pathfinder's monster CR?

I'm certain pathfiner's PC's are more powerful compared to their 3.5e counter parts. So does that make a 3.5 monster with a CR 3 a CR 2 when up against pathfinder characers? CR 1.5?

thanks!

[LTwerewolf]

Even with 3.5, CR is not all that reliable. My group for example usually takes on equal level challenges like it's nothing, and even 2-3 above its challenge rating without much effort at all. It's more about trial and error (I recommend erring on the side of caution) to find your group's limits.

[Rogue Shadows]

In general, Pathfinder classes are about +0.5 to +1 ECL of their equivalent PHB classes.

My memory is faulty, but it's back now.

[AttilaTheGeek]

In general, Pathfinder classes are about +1 to +1.5 ECL of their equivalent PHB classes.

I remember reading this too, but now I can't find where.

[Urpriest]

From what I've seen, Pathfinder characters are more powerful, but that isn't the same as saying they need higher CR monsters, especially given that Pathfinder monsters are not noticeably harder. At most you'd be using tougher monsters of the same CR, not higher CR monsters.

[Cowboy_ninja]

From what I've seen, Pathfinder characters are more powerful, but that isn't the same as saying they need higher CR monsters, especially given that Pathfinder monsters are not noticeably harder. At most you'd be using tougher monsters of the same CR, not higher CR monsters.

Very interesting point, but you lost me at "using toucher monsters of the same CR, not higher CR monsters."

Are you saying that increasing the HD of a monsters (and hence the CR) to an appropriate level, is not the same as simply choosing a monster of the appropriate CR?

[Cowboy_ninja]

In general, Pathfinder classes are about +1 to +1.5 ECL of their equivalent PHB classes.

Exactly the kind of answer I'm looking for. Thanks!


I remember reading this too, but now I can't find where.

Thanks for ...concur-ing? ... the word is on the tip of my tongue....:smallannoyed:

[Urpriest]

Very interesting point, but you lost me at "using toucher monsters of the same CR, not higher CR monsters."

Are you saying that increasing the HD of a monsters (and hence the CR) to an appropriate level, is not the same as simply choosing a monster of the appropriate CR?

No, I'm saying that HD should scale by level, and PF characters aren't actually higher level. PF characters have numbers like attack bonus and save DCs at roughly the same numbers as 3.5 ones, so you shouldn't use higher CR monsters, or monsters with more HD. You should use monsters with the same HD/CR, but that deal more damage or have a tougher suite of abilities, since CR doesn't in practice measure how difficult monsters are, but rather what level of players should be fighting them.

[NotScaryBats]

So, pathfinder characters have more options, but are not hardier or more damaging?

[Urpriest]

So, pathfinder characters have more options, but are not hardier or more damaging?

The impression I get is that they're a little more damaging, but not much. More to the point, the numbers they add to their d20s are roughly the same, and that's primarily what CR is supposed to match.

[NotScaryBats]

I've never played pf, but that makes sense -- 4e has similar ideas where the mm1 monsters are hp sacks that do little damage and are relatively boring, while mm3 monsters have much less hp, but do more dmg and have more varied attacks (their ac etc is the same, so you can do either/or and mix)

[Starbuck_II]

The impression I get is that they're a little more damaging, but not much. More to the point, the numbers they add to their d20s are roughly the same, and that's primarily what CR is supposed to match.

Except in 3.5 an equal encounter is a Level 1 Fighter vs a 1st level Party (CR 1 vs Lv 1's)

But in PF, a LV 1 Fighter vs 1st level Party isn't equal: CR -1.

So there seems to be a disconnect.
"A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1"

So I'd say PF requires higher CR encounters than 3.5.
That Damn Crab is an appropriate encounter in Pathfinder.

[Rogue Shadows]

I remember reading this too, but now I can't find where.

Well, it's mentioned in The Red Hand of Doom Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171284). It was an observation made by the poster Glyphstone, who ran RHoD in Pathfinder.

Oops, but I made a mistake, it's actually about 0.5 - 1 ECL higher. Point being that, in general, they're a bit tougher, can fight a bit longer, take a little less damage and dish out a little more, but the difference isn't gigantic.

[Story]

Very interesting point, but you lost me at "using toucher monsters of the same CR, not higher CR monsters."

Are you saying that increasing the HD of a monsters (and hence the CR) to an appropriate level, is not the same as simply choosing a monster of the appropriate CR?

Even with CR held constant, some monsters are much more powerful than others. Case in point: That Damn Crab. Shadows are also pretty brutal if you arrange the circumstances right.