Sow's Ear into cheap faux-Silk Purse: a tanking Duskblade

[Shunka Warakin]

This is one of those peculiarly limited niche situations, so a few quick caveats:


I am aware that Duskblades are Nothing Like Optimal Tanks but they're What I'm Asking About. Excursions into How A Knight Could Do It Better aren't helpful in this case. Yes, I am Dooming My Party and On My Foolish Head Be It.
I am aware that Aggro management (outside of Tome of Battle, which the GM has disallowed) is pretty much restricted to Knights, and the Goad feat in 3.5.
No, Really, I am aware that Some Other Class Could Do This Better, thank you. Having established that, I hope, I'm trying to figure out what foolish efforts can be made in order for this class to do it semi-adequately.

So as the post title implies, the party needs a tank. I really want to play something new, I'm tired of fighters, etc., and I've wanted to play a Duskblade for a while.

Someone suggested that a Duskblade COULD tank, sort-of, by using the old standard Spiked Chain as its spell-delivery weapon in addition to the usual enemy pratfall routine. And there are a few interesting possibilities in there: color spray doesn't suck against low-level swarms, which most tanks can't deal with at all; weapon channeling with a reach weapon lets you do some very nasty things. It feels like it might be different, even if, once again, it's somebody in middlin' armor flailing around with a long piece of chain.

The campaign is Forgotten Realms, and all the FR sourcebooks are allowed, other than that it is pretty basic: PHB, PHB2, the Compleat _____ books, but most emphatically NOT TOME OF BATTLE.

Campaign is starting at 3rd level and will be mostly in (under?) Waterdeep, so urban/dungeon.

Character in question has the following stats:
Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 16, Wis: 8, Cha: 12

The high dex is to enable multiple AoOs with Combat Reflexes.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it:

What feats, now and in future? I currently have access to 2, plus a free regional feat (from Thay...I went with Dreadful Wrath, an AoE which is triggered automatically when my character charges, makes a full attack, or casts a spell at an enemy, and which debuffs all enemies in a '20 radius who fail Will saves, rendering them Shaken for 1 minute (but can only affect a given enemy once/day)...It seemed potentially handy.)

My other initial feats to go with this seem to be best used for

Combat Reflexes (Allows a number of AoOs = Dex bonus (+3 for this character))
Exotic Weapon Pro: Spiked Chain (You know why)

...Let the tripping commence.

For initial Spells, I get all of the Lvl-0s available to a Duskblade (hoo...ray...But Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, and Touch of Fatigue at least are relatively useful Lvl-0 spells) and 3 Lvl-1s. My thoughts are to take Lesser Deflect, Resist Energy, and Bigby's Tripping Hand (for the one that got away).

Some future feats I have thought about and would like input on (as well as Better Ideas you may have):
Combat Expertise (Swap attack bonus for Dodge bonus, also gateway for Improved Trip),
Improved Trip (+4 bonus to trip, automatic attack on success),
Iron Will or Steadfast Determination (It's bad when the tank runs away like a little girl, even if the tank is a little girl),
Knowledge Devotion (For the aforementioned attack/damage bonuses), and
Power Attack (For beating the snot out of tripped things).

Any suggested order would be nice, too.

Skill wise, maxed Concentration seems a no-Brainer, with Knowledge-Arcana (that, plus perhaps later Knowledge-Dungeoneering, if combined with Knowledge Devotion, creates a bunch of attack and damage bonus potential). I am not sure if Spellcraft will be that useful (there are two other casters in the party, and personally, in the past, I have rarely had much utility for it). I'm considering Sense Motive, Climb, Jump, Swim... I could use the Cityscape: Skilled City Dweller to swap in Tumble as a class skill but I'm not sure that (as the putative tank) I really should be bothering with it...But 5 ranks in Tumble grants some interesting AC bonuses on defense. Again, any thoughts would be welcome.

Starting gold is 2700gp, no more than 1/2 on a single item. I was pondering a Mithril Shirt (1100g) and a MWW Spiked Chain (325g) but am certainly open to advice.

I understand that it is suboptimal out the starting gate, but if anyone can offer any suggestions for improving it in the noted directions, I'd be very appreciative!

[BowStreetRunner]

Knowledge Devotion - you have all of the Knowledge skills as class skills and putting even 1 rank in each along with this feat guarantees +1 to attack and damage. Now if you can regularly make a DC 16 check to get +2, this feat becomes better than Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization combined, as it applies to any weapons you wield.

Expert Tactician from Complete Adventurer is another that works well with this build. You use a trip attack against the opponent's touch AC on an AoO and when that hits, you and your allies get a +2 to attack and damage against that opponent for a round. You can then apply that bonus immediately to the follow-up attack from the Improved Trip.

I've used Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, Improved Trip and Expert Tactician to good advantage with a tripper build in the past. Keeping my Power Attack high doesn't hurt when my primary attack is against touch AC, and the bonuses from KD and ET help make sure the follow-up attacks hit as well.

Edit: Several other feats worth noting: hold the line (CWar), deft opportunist (CAdv), stand still (XPH), Improved Disarm (PH). Oh, and keep saving your coppers and someday you might be able to afford to get a Dwarvencrafted Adamantine Living Chain. (My first Living Chain was sundered by a big ugly and I have been obsessed with never allowing another to break ever again!)

Some key spells to keep in mind:

Touch of Fatigue - you only want to use this on creatures with very low Fort saves, but fatigue keeps creatures from charging and since a charge doesn't provoke an AoO, you hate charging opponents.
Ray of Enfeeblement - enemies with high STR are a bane to trippers as they often win the opposed check. Make them weak!
Stretch Weapon - for those pesky enemies standing just outside your reach.
Halt - remember how you hate charging opponents? This will stop them right where you can reach them but they can't reach you.
Ray of Exhaustion - moving at half speed with a -6 to Str AND Dex is fantastic. Remember, the defender can use either Str or Dex on the opposed Trip check, so this gets them both ways.

[Gwendol]

Movement from a charge provokes AoO's normally, and with reach you may be able to trip or stop the charger before he/she reaches you (using either a trip attack or the standstill feat).
I suggest dropping DEX to 14, and put the 2 points in something else, STR or CHA for example. Having some experience with chain trippers I can tell you that your DM will rarely let the enemy provoke 4 times in a single round, and for those rare occasions you buy a pair of bracers of opportunity (MIC) to get an extra AoO (in addition to the +2 to the attack roll).

As for feats you seem to have them well laid out, although I would also suggest looking into Precocious Apprentice to get an early 2nd level spell. Maybe use a flaw for it? Shaky for example.
Also I strongly suggest versatile spellcaster: sooner rather than later.

You can possibly retrain precocious apprentice as you hit 3rd or 6th level to move the list of feats up one level.

Feat list:
1st: EWP spiked chain, precocious apprentice (flaw), versatile spellcaster, Dreadful wrath (bonus)
3rd: combat reflexes
6: power attack
9: combat expertise
12: improved trip
15: cleave
18: ?

As for spells, I suggest the following 1st level spells instead:
Ray of Enfeeblement
Chill touch
Color spray

[andromax]

You're gonna want to pick up some Steadfast Boots from the MiC for 1400gp, your DM will hate you. You'll get 2 attacks vs charging foes, the first doing double damage, assuming it doesn't have more than 5' reach.

[Khedrac]

Close-Quarters Fighting is always worth having if you are likely to find yourself grappled.

Personally I would not bother with a spiked chain - I think there are better uses for the feat (but then my duskblade is a halfling with point blank shot! He's going to be a ray specialist at higher levels who can really upset an opponent who gets to melee with him) so that's personal preference.
For low-level Burning Hands is the best anti-swarm spell there is as Color Spray won't hit vermin (immune to mind-affecting) and can be worth it on normal opponents if they clump up enough (at which point I promptly roll 1s on all D4s).

I find Lesser Deflect a waste of a spell and action - you have better uses for your daily spell uses than this - especially as a tank where you may need to use quite a few just in doing the damage.

[Gwendol]

On the other hand, burning hands just deals damage (fire): leave that to the wizard.

[BowStreetRunner]

Movement from a charge provokes AoO's normally...

I was looking at the table in the rules compendium where it says charges do not provoke attacks of opportunity, but when I read the charge rules themselves you are right - the charge does not provoke but the movement certainly may. Confusing the way they wrote that table.

[Gwendol]

Well, this is WoTC after all...

[Shunka Warakin]

Goodness!

Some really excellent and helpful stuff here. I was kind of expecting a lot of 'Are you an idiot? Stop trying to use that class for that.'

Thank you all. :)


Expert Tactician from Complete Adventurer is another that works well with this build. You use a trip attack against the opponent's touch AC on an AoO and when that hits, you and your allies get a +2 to attack and damage against that opponent for a round. You can then apply that bonus immediately to the follow-up attack from the Improved Trip.

Nice one, I was semi-aware of the utility of Knowledge Devotion but completely missed Expert Tactician - and it's REALLY easy to get, too, with the only feat prerequisite being one I consider mandatory for this job anyway!


I suggest dropping DEX to 14, and put the 2 points in something else, STR or CHA for example. Having some experience with chain trippers I can tell you that your DM will rarely let the enemy provoke 4 times in a single round, and for those rare occasions you buy a pair of bracers of opportunity (MIC) to get an extra AoO (in addition to the +2 to the attack roll).

Those bracers are evil, but out of my price range (2700g to start, no more than 1/2 on a single item). Still, I like.

I'm not sure we're allowed to take flaws for bonus feats, and feats are NOT something Duskblades have an excess of. I'm going to have to think about Precocious Apprentice. In the long run it grants me an extra level 2 spell slot. That's not bad. In the short run it's potentially extremely powerful, but my focus is more on combat control than DPS.

Where I am really puzzled is your suggestion about CHA. Shouldn't I plug those poins into CON (tougher tank), STR (better tripper) or INT (bonus spells)? I'm not sure I see what CHA does for me with a Duskblade. Were you thinking Hexblades? They cast based on CHA, not INT. Or did I miss something? I am new to this class!


You're gonna want to pick up some Steadfast Boots from the MiC for 1400gp, your DM will hate you. You'll get 2 attacks vs charging foes, the first doing double damage, assuming it doesn't have more than 5' reach.

NICE. They go over the 50% limiter by 50g...I bet I can wheedle that! On the other hand, that plus a mithril shirt will leave me so broke I can't afford a MW spiked chain. Hmmmm. Put it on the 'Buy me later' shopping list...

Khedrac, good call on Lesser Deflect. It's kind of weak. I'm using the chain to permit a 10' threat radius though, so I don't feel it's negotiable unless some other means of combat tanking control with that kind of range can be substituted for it.


I was looking at the table in the rules compendium where it says charges do not provoke attacks of opportunity, but when I read the charge rules themselves you are right - the charge does not provoke but the movement certainly may. Confusing the way they wrote that table.

I've been poring over the rules regarding trips, charges, overruns, bull rushes, etc. the past day. If I may quickly clear things up (I HOPE): Bull Rush and Overrun both explicitly state that they provoke AoOs when you move into the target's square. In a normal Charge, you don't do that, thus no AoO, I believe.

"First, you move into the defender's space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender." (p.154, Bull Rush)

"Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender's space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender." (p. 157, Overrun)

In each case the attacker is moving out of a square the defender threatens (the adjacent square).

In a charge, "First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." (p.154)

If your opponent has a 10' reach and threatens you before you are adjacent to them, and you must move one square closer to do so, you will provoke an AoO at that time, correct? I.e., if your target is in square C, and threatens A and B, you provoke an AoO by moving from A to B because you are moving out of a threatened square...And in the same sense if you overrun or BR, you provoke another attack when you move from B to C (the opponent's square). Against a normal reach opponent, this is the only AoO opportunity they get. Against a chain-wielder with Combat Reflexes the charger gets provokes when they move out of A, and again when they move out of B (the 'usual time').

At least...That is how I see it. Thoughts?

My current thoughts on equipment (2700gp starting gold, no more than 50% on a single item) are:
Mithril shirt (1100), Arcanist's Gloves (500), Healing Belt (750), and MW Spiked Chain (325). I might swap out Boots of Stomping for Arcanist's gloves, but I feel like if I'm doing things right with the chain the frontal cone DC13 Reflex check 'Everyone SIT DOWN' they provide won't really prove useful nearly as often as the emergency spell damage provided by the gloves. They're basically a backup for 'chain fail', and I shouldn't need that.

[Gwendol]

Higher CHA makes your demoralization work better (dreadful wrath feat + various uses of intimidate and fear-causing spells), but yes, it's kind of a niche area of development.

Provoking when charging is following the normal rule of leaving a threatened space, and so chargers will provoke against your chain-wielding self when not using reach weapons (or having natural reach), but not otherwise, which is kind of what I said earlier on (though perhaps not very clearly).

However, if you want to stop chargers at 1st level you have the means at your disposal: obscuring mist. I suggest getting a wand.

[Gwendol]

Later on you also might take a look at the bracers of entangling blast... combined with chill touch they are wicked.

[barna10]

If you get to 12th level, consider Robilar's Gambit. After 13th level, your arcane channeling will affect every target you hit the same round. A round lasts until you go the next round so you still get to channel the spell for all AOO until you get to act again. Just wicked.

[BowStreetRunner]

I almost forgot what may be a very handy magic item to have as a chain-tripper. Lesser Crystal of Return (MIC, 1000gp) allows you to not only draw the weapon as a free action, but also to call it to hand from up to 30 ft away.

The reason this will become important is the part of the Trip rules that say if you lose the opposed check, your opponent can try to trip you instead. However, if they succeed on their opposed check to trip you, you can choose to just drop the weapon instead.

When this happens, having the crystal can help a great deal. Picking up an item does provoke AoO. Using the crystal's ability is a move action that does not trigger an AoO. I would usually take a 5 foot step, call the weapon back, then make a standard attack.

[Devmaar]

The lesser crystal is a good idea but will need to wait until you can afford a magic weapon.

You may be better off with a guisarme as your main weapon, using spiked gauntlets or armour spikes for adjacent enemies.

[Pechvarry]

I was looking into a tanking duskblade just recently. I didn't actually build one, but devoted 5 minutes to thinking about it.

I found they have a lot of strong debuffs. Focusing those, and some teleports, would make for a tank guaranteed to annoy. Remember that you're tanking the dm, not the monsters! Put yourself in positions where you can't be ignored, and make his creatures worse at their job (bonus: numerical debuffs are annoying to keep track of, so he'll want to kill you harder).

You have armor, so you're wearing gauntlets. Ditch the overdone spiked chain, go for a spear type weapon, threaten adjacent with gauntlets. Open fights with ray of enfeeblement against whatever looks most likely to grapple you. The only shortcoming is how seldom you'll get use out of arcane channel.

[Shunka Warakin]

You may be better off with a guisarme as your main weapon, using spiked gauntlets or armour spikes for adjacent enemies.


You have armor, so you're wearing gauntlets. Ditch the overdone spiked chain, go for a spear type weapon, threaten adjacent with gauntlets. Open fights with ray of enfeeblement against whatever looks most likely to grapple you. The only shortcoming is how seldom you'll get use out of arcane channel.

Hm, well, there seems to be a reason why the chain is so popular:
You can't drop a spiked gauntlet. You can't drop a regular guantlet. You can't drop armor spikes...So if you've got the chain, you can always not be tripped yourself by simply dropping it. This is also true of the guisarme (which can't trip adjacent).

Going the guisarme/gauntlet/armor spikes route means that if you try to trip something at 10' with the guisarme and fail, and it trips you back, you've dropped your Guisarme (thank goodness it's not the old days when you might have to drop your glaive-glaive-guisarme-voulge-ranseur-scorpion-spam-spam-spam). Now the critter is next to you. If you try to trip it using gauntlets, you're effectively making an unarmed attack, and you're subjected to an AoO. Hm, come to think of it, you'd still be subjected to an AoO with the chain...It doesn't say that you aren't, simply that you're able to drop it.

Which you can't do with gauntlets/armor spikes.

More thoughts on this? I'm really curious about it because (1) there are obviously reasons why the chain-monkey tripper is so popular, and (2) it would free up that feat being used for EWP: Spiked Chain.

[TuggyNE]

Now the critter is next to you. If you try to trip it using gauntlets, you're effectively making an unarmed attack, and you're subjected to an AoO. Hm, come to think of it, you'd still be subjected to an AoO with the chain...

Yeah, the only way to get rid of the AoO is to have Improved Trip, although I suspect if someone has insufficient reach to attack you an AoO would be wasted unless they spent it on a sunder or disarm attempt (which would usually provoke an AoO from you).


More thoughts on this? I'm really curious about it because (1) there are obviously reasons why the chain-monkey tripper is so popular, and (2) it would free up that feat being used for EWP: Spiked Chain.

It's generally pretty hard to match Spiked Chain for sheer tripping effectiveness: two-handed, finessible, inclusive reach, tripping. You can work around some of that, but there aren't any perfect substitutes.

[Pechvarry]

Imo, glaive/spikes + improved trip is better than a chain without. I would consider grabbing combat expertise and improved trip at 1st level. I have a character like this in my game and even without combat reflexes, the lockdown is superb. Plus, you're level 2, so you can get reflexes next level.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you try to trip it using gauntlets, you're effectively making an unarmed attack, and you're subjected to an AoO. Hm, come to think of it, you'd still be subjected to an AoO with the chain...It doesn't say that you aren't, simply that you're able to drop it.

There are two downsides to a normal trip attempt - you provoke an AoO when you initiate the trip, and if you fail the opposed check your opponent gets to try to trip you back. The Improved Trip feat prevents the AoO at the outset, and tripping with a weapon allows you to drop the weapon instead of being tripped in return at the end.

[Axier]

Spiked chain, backup spiked chain, armor spikes, spiked gauntlets, and then some hidden blades from Complete Scoundrel.

Never be caught unarmed again!

Also, spiked chain is just strictly better at tripping than pretty much anything else, and tripping can get hardcore.

I would focus a little more on DEX personally, because you can trip attempt on an AoO, and you want to get a lot of those to keep the enemy locked down in your area of spikey doom. You want all the AoOs.

Also, active defense, or something like that is a 15th level feat that has people provoking AoOs if they are within your reach, either at the end of thier turn or on yours, cant remember. Completely unoptimal and unlikely that you are guarenteed to make it to 15th level, just sayin it 'cause I think it would look cool with a spiked chain.

[Gwendol]

Defensive sweep? Only works against unmoving targets in your reach, and thus is optimal for knight or crusader builds, less so for a duskblade.

[BowStreetRunner]

Defensive Sweep can be handy but is much more optimized with things like Thicket of Blades, where it combos to produce a series of effects where the opponent provokes an AoO no matter what they do. It generally works best with a character who has lots of feats (Fighter) or special abilities (Knight/Crusader) who can establish many situations that create AoOs so that provoking one seems an inevitability.

Generally, a dedicated tripper build needs to have a good balance of feats and abilities that fall into four categories. You really can't neglect any of these and have the build work as well.


Control abilities - these are the abilities that actually allow you to exert control over enemies in battle. Improved Trip and Stand Still are excellent examples.

Opportunity abilities - these are abilities that increase the total number of opportunities you have to take actions of any sort, but in particular attack actions. Combat Reflexes is the most obvious example of this. Also worth mentioning are Robilar's Gambit, Cleave, Mage Slayer, Close Quarters Fighting, Defensive Sweep, Defensive Rebuke (Maneuver), Thicket of Blades (Stance) - each of which can be used to create an attack of opportunity or additional attack where you normally would not have one.

Attack and Damage abilities - these are the abilities that allow you to actually harm your opponents. It's not enough to just control the battlefield if you can't finish off your enemies. These include Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Knowledge Devotion, Deft Opportunist, Foehammer (Maneuver), Expert Tactician, and many of your Arcane Channeled damage-dealing spells.

Prerequisites abilities - these are simply the abilities that you need to take to qualify for some of the others. Combat Expertise is an example, as it is needed to get Improved Trip.