Methods for gaining the Vermin type?

[tuesdayscoming]

I'm looking for absolutely any and all methods of making a creature qualify as having the Vermin type.

As always with such problems, I first checked the Master List of Templates (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869266/Master_Template_List), but was unable to find anything that qualifies.

What, specifically, I'm trying to accomplish: I want a Symbiotic Creature (Savage Species template) with a swarm as its symbiote guest to take 10 levels in Vermin Lord (BoVD PrC) and use the Hivemind feature on its own Symbiotic guest. Thus, I'm ideally looking for methods to turn an Aberration into a Vermin.

[The Viscount]

I don't see why you need to change your type to Vermin. Vermin Lord is explicitly part of the Hivemind.

[Fouredged Sword]

He wants his Symbiotic Creature to be a vermin so it qualifies for the hive mind with his character.

[Toy Killer]

If plant/undead/construct is easier for the host to acquire (Post aberration, of course), you may have an easier time with hive nest monster (Dungeonscape, Pg 115).

It allows you to bear a swarm within yourself, akin to symbiote. I don't know of anyway to give anything the vermin subtype, though...

[Spuddles]

There's a ten level prestige class from song&silence whose capstone turns you into a vermin.

[The Viscount]

Ah, Fang of Lolth. It does indeed turn you into a Vermin as its capstone. However, I still fail to see why the Vermin Lord must be a Vermin. It specifically states that the Vermin Lord is part of the hivemind, which seems to suggest that the Vermin Lord can join regardless of type.

[tuesdayscoming]

Unfortunately, Fang of Lolth is really the only suitable thing I've found in my research, too. Obviously, though, the inclusion of a second 10 level PrC, all the way to completion, would be prohibitive in a pre-epic build (which I would like this to be).

I guess there's always Illithid Savant and Emancipated Spawn shenanigans...

*shudder*

I'll keep looking.


you may have an easier time with hive nest monster. . .

That is a very interesting find! And one I'm not sure I've ever actually bothered to read. Unfortunately, it doesn't quite suit my purposes here. I'm looking to use Symbiotic because it has a listed LA. Hive Nest, sadly, does not.


Ah, Fang of Lolth. It does indeed turn you into a Vermin as its capstone. However, I still fail to see why the Vermin Lord must be a Vermin. It specifically states that the Vermin Lord is part of the hivemind, which seems to suggest that the Vermin Lord can join regardless of type.

Not to worry, Viscount. It's a weird character concept. I'll try to run through it below.

Symbiotic creatures use the host's physical stats and the guests's mental ones. In many cases, this leaves you with a dismally low intelligence. The combination I have in mind is one such case. However, if you can increase the intelligence of the guest on its own, then you increase the intelligence of the resulting combined creature.

Vermin Lord's capstone lets you give a swarm (such as this character's symbiotic guest) significant increases to its mental scores. This method, however, only works with vermin.

You are right that it would be enough, hypothetically, to make the symbiotic guest (the swarm) count as vermin. However, because of the eccentricities of the symbiotic template, the two creatures are really only actually one creature. Thus, the "two" share a type. Because of this, it is necessary that the Vermin Lord himself become a vermin, if only because it is a necessary part of his symbiotic guest's becoming one.

Hope that explained the idea a bit better for you!

[Vaz]

Hivenest Monster according to the List linked to above doesn't provide a change in type; but you could go Any Undead+Hivenest.

However; how factually accurate it is I am unsure of; the Vampire Lord Template it lists as LA0; but it doesn't list a Level Adjustment whatsoever; so LA-, meaning unsuitable for PC's. After all, it gives Leadership for Free. Anything else would just be a bonus.

Just thought; there won't be a Vermin Class, particularly for a PC; Vermin Type makes you Mindless and Int-. Even Int+ Classes won't have any effect as "-" is not numerical.

[Toy Killer]

Ah, I see what you're doing here.

With this being the case and all, why not have a Moonrat (MMII, Pg 151) As the Guest (Bear with me, I promise)? If you would so choose such a monstrosity to your intellect score, you could go with a class that grants familiars and select the Mighty Moon Mouse [MMM from here on] as your familiar.

Now your familiar gains a decent intellect score, perhaps not as much as you would want, but you share that boost in intellect, and I'm sure the MMM would appreciate not having to wait for a full moon to be able to recognize he's been glued to a bumbling humanoid trying to cast spells horribly.

However, since the Lunar mind bonus is an untyped bonus... it adds to his intellect (and being symbiotic, Yours as well) every single night. a few smart inducing magic items, and you're all set! with a swelling +2 through +8 intellect bonus for nearly every night of the week.

But wait, MMM isn't a swarm!? why go with vermin lord at all!?

what keeps MMM from joining in the other moonrats...

and forming a hyper intelligent rat swarm? whom would share the intellect boost you gave to him for being in part of the swarm, which he would impart back to you for being his symbiotic buddy...

[Darrin]

Are you trying to abuse Dark Speech/Hivemind here?

(If not... can you add it to the build? I found a working link (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/12/hive.html) for this trick here.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there is a playable (LA 0) vermin in monsters of faerûn, Hairy Spider I think.

[The Viscount]

Hairy Spider is a great familiar, but not a playable race.

I finally understand now. Perhaps if you create the hivemind before you add it to yourself with the symbiotic template. That should allow for you to make use of the hivemind's intelligence. At least that's how it seems to me.

[Snowbluff]

IIRC there is a playable (LA 0) vermin in monsters of faerûn, Hairy Spider I think.

Monstrous Hairy Spider. LA +0, in a 3.5 update, for some reason...

[The Viscount]

Where was that update?

[Snowbluff]

I'd find it for you, but minmax is down, and the article is a dead-end. It's very well documented, though. LA +0, stats are easily extrapolated...

Oh wait, found in one of my threads. Download here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a)

[shaikujin]

For what the OP wants, there might not be a need for the host Vermin Lord to be a vermin.


Let me know if you think this works:


The Vermin Lord gains a vermin servant at level 1. This vermin servant is explicitly allowed to be part of the hivemind you form.

So have your vermin servant be part of the hivemind. Whilst the Vermin Lord is explicitly prohibited from gaining the bonus to Int and Cha, the vermin servant is not.

Your pet should gain all benefits of being in a hivemind, including the Int/Cha parts:


"All the creatures operate with an Intelligence of 5" (and + 1 for every x number of creatures).


It's not "the Swarm/Hivemind operate with an Intelligence of 5", but ALL.



If the above logic is sound, you just need to form a symbiotic creature with your vermin servant to gain the Int and Cha bonus.




While it doesn't flat out say that the vermin servant's type changes to a magical beast, it is written that it's considered one.

Should this become a stumbling block, hopefully the 2 solutions below will help.


The stirge in the symbiotic example is a magical beast, so either WOTC made a simple text typo and missed out the 2 words "magical beast" as an eligible creature type, or they made a very expensive/lengthy typo consisting of a 200+ word sample creature plus a beautiful illustration.

Hopefully your GM can be convinced that mistake is the 2 word typo.


If that doesn't work, add templates or use some way to convert the vermind servant into a humanoid (dustform + incarnate contruct), or a plant (greenbound)