[PF] Flying Creatures vs Fighters

[Iamtheend]

I am playing a reach fighter that specializes in tripping. I have some specific questions, then I would like some advice in general on the matter on facing flying creatures.

If I use Dazing Assault or for that matter a flying creature who is in flight is put under the Dazed condition, then what happens? Do that stay hovering flapping their wings (assuming they are not just levitating by magic), or do they fall? What about stunning, and about magically flying in this situation too.

How would a combat maneuver like Trip affect a flying opponent? Is it completely useless?

[Solusek]

I am playing a reach fighter that specializes in tripping. I have some specific questions, then I would like some advice in general on the matter on facing flying creatures.

If I use Dazing Assault or for that matter a flying creature who is in flight is put under the Dazed condition, then what happens? Do that stay hovering flapping their wings (assuming they are not just levitating by magic), or do they fall? What about stunning, and about magically flying in this situation too.


This is a tough question and with a quick Google search I wasn't able to find a consensus about what exactly happens to stunned or dazed flying creatures. I would say they have to succeed at a hover flight check (DC 15 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly)) to remain flying, but its really up to the GM how to handle it until we get a FAQ or something that addresses the question.


How would a combat maneuver like Trip affect a flying opponent? Is it completely useless?

Trip does nothing to flying creatures. At higher levels I would recommend getting your GM to let you further enchant something like the Dragoncatch Guisarme (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/dragoncatch-guisarme), or let you put that power on other polearms so that all the feats you invested in trip don't become useless.

[Killer Angel]

Trip does nothing to flying creatures.

This is not (completely) true.
A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Unfortunately, this is PF, the "balanced edition." So your 3E malarkey that lets fighters still mess up their over-head magical overlords doesn't fly here! Yay, puns! I've presented that link several times on paizo's forums, and they (the fans) consistently insist it does not apply to PF, though, in all seriousness.

As for what happens when dazed.... in 3E, it was pretty simple. Anyone with good or perfect maneuverability and flight from magic or some other source beyond wings could just hover safely, anyone else would either be unable to maintain minimum forward distance or be unable to hover and thus fall.

In PF, hovering is simply a skill check, though. So this will be tricky.... The skill says:

"Action
None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

Now, while it says none, that's because it's part of another action. Since a dazed foe can't take a move action or the like, making a fly check should not be possible as part of another action. Then there's the reaction part, which is really going to be up to your DM. In *my* opinion, since the fly skill covers many different kinds of checks and the Action text is for the entire skill, this is referring only to fly checks made in reaction to something else. Namely, the "attacked while flying", "collision while flying", and "avoid falling damage" uses. Flying maneuvers, such as hover, are not done in reaction to something else, so the creature would still fall, although likely take no damage for it (DC 10? Seriously, paizo?). Again, this is my opinion. A literalist RAW-stupid DM could easily claim any use of fly is "in reaction" to something and screw you over.

[Deepbluediver]

Our group used to argue about trying to trip flying enemies occasionally; it didn't come up that often, because the classes with tripping builds didn't usually get flight, but I think we eventually settled on the houserule of: anything within reach of the ground can tripped (dragging it down), and both parties are flying (or jumping) it's instead either a bullrush or grapple attempt.

[Iamtheend]

What if I lunge a creature or just normally hit a creature with my reach weapon with a trip attack resulting in them falling (assming we use the 3e logic), do I get aoo for them falling through my threatened squares in the air? Also at what point do I take my aoo for my trip (being that I have combat reflexes and greater trip)?

Also, does Dazing assault work on Trip attacks and things that are CMB deals, or only when I make an attack that deals damage?

[Iamtheend]

Bumping to the front

[Killer Angel]

In PF, hovering is simply a skill check, though. So this will be tricky.... The skill says:

"Action
None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

Now, while it says none, that's because it's part of another action. Since a dazed foe can't take a move action or the like, making a fly check should not be possible as part of another action. Then there's the reaction part, which is really going to be up to your DM. In *my* opinion, since the fly skill covers many different kinds of checks and the Action text is for the entire skill, this is referring only to fly checks made in reaction to something else. Namely, the "attacked while flying", "collision while flying", and "avoid falling damage" uses. Flying maneuvers, such as hover, are not done in reaction to something else, so the creature would still fall, although likely take no damage for it (DC 10? Seriously, paizo?).

I tend to agree with you: the creature should fall... or at least, a fly check should be required (even if it couldn't be possible, but yeah, the generic "reaction to a situation" enters in the DM's field of competence).


Bumping to the front

Please, don't do that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1). :smallwink: