What would you price a Vorpal Weapon as?

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, given how limited this ability is (Has to get a natural 20, has to be a creature that has a head, has to be a slashing weapon, has to actually crit and not be negated), what would you actually price it as? A +5 ability seems like way too high for what you actually get out of it.

This is mostly for the sake of a homebrew I plan on doing, but I'm curious what the playground would say a Vorpal blade is worth to them.

[Erik Vale]

Ok, it might happen rarely, but when you instantly kill opponents 1/20th of the time, it's pretty powerful when that 20th is the bbeg.

Also, some weapons have 18-20 ranges for the same ability.

[JaronK]

Also, there are ways to insure you roll a 20 when you want to (Surge of Fortune was the spell, IIRC?). So it's easy to really break Vorpal.

JaronK

[pffh]

Also, some weapons have 18-20 ranges for the same ability.

No they don't. You have to get a natural 20 regardless of the weapons crit range.

I personally would go with a +3. It's expensive enough so that you won't see it on every weapon but cheap enough to remain a solid option.

[andromax]

You could craft it yourself, restrict it to your class/alignment and put a skill restriction on it and it'd cost you less than 23k if my math is correct.

[Immabozo]

I was toying with an epic level druid boss that, I couldn't decide between 16 armed attacks, or 8 natural attacks with all of them vorporal... although I failed to look at the possibility of making all the axes vorporal...

[SowZ]

For low op it might see good use. But I think most optimizers could do a lot more with +5 worth of weapon enhancements to ensure that just about anything is killed in one round than a 5% chance.

[Tokuhara]

My first campaign ever, my party & I got as loot a Vorpal Butter Knife (1, x1.5, fragile). I decided to hang onto it. Around campaign's end, we were getting bum raped by a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon. I drew the butter knife everyone forgot about and threw it as a last ditch effort. Natural 20. My DM explained that this fight was supposed to be a Made-to-Lose fight against the CR 45 dragon, but since we won, we went from approximately 16th level to 31st. The campaign kinda fell apart after that.

[nedz]

It's a legacy thing really.
In AD&D the chance of decapitation was a straight 5%, and it was useful.
AD&D also had the Sword of Sharpness, which was basically the same but lopped off a random limb — which could be the head.
I don't think it's worth +5, or anything close, which is probably why you don't see them very often.

A cheaper way of getting this effect would be to have a Razorboar as an animal companion, or even a summons. The fact that I've never seen anyone suggest this option in any optimisation advice, handbook or otherwise, indicates that it's probably a poor choice.

It is hard to quantify what it's actually worth, but I will give this some thought.

[Vaz]

If I was wroting vorpal, I'd change it so that is applies on a Critical Hit (keeping the requirement of anatomy etc), and keep it as a +5 weapon, increasing by +1 for every increase in Crit Range outside of a natural 20. (Essentially Crit Range +4)

It wouldn't be affected by changes that weren't part of the weapons creation.

For example, a Vorpal Scimitar (range 3) is +9. A Keen range 1 weapon is a +1 weapon with range 2; making Vorpal +8. However, a Vorpal Scimitar used by a character with Improved Crit; Scimitar for doubled range is still only able to get Vorpal on 18-20, although they would still crit for double damage as normal on a 15.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd also go with +3. Makes it so it's useful but still expensive, and not horridly overpriced.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Vorpal is an inherently broken ability. Random chance any attack you make will be instant death, no save. The guy above mentioning the druid w/ 16 vorpal natural weapons (vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists, I assume) is a great demonstration of how unbalanced such an ability is.

I would not re-price it. If anything, I would ban it. It just so happens that thus far the +5 price tag has made no player want it and none of my DMs has been enough of a jerk to exploit it on a monster, so it hasn't been an issue.

[DEMON]

Vorpal is an inherently broken ability. Random chance any attack you make will be instant death, no save. The guy above mentioning the druid w/ 16 vorpal natural weapons (vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists, I assume) is a great demonstration of how unbalanced such an ability is.

I would not re-price it. If anything, I would ban it. It just so happens that thus far the +5 price tag has made no player want it and none of my DMs has been enough of a jerk to exploit it on a monster, so it hasn't been an issue.

QFT - I wouldn´t use it, personally. The ability is too random to be worth the +5 price tag, but too powerful every now and then to warrant a significant discount. As it is now, the cheapest you can get this ability is 72k (+1 vorpal weapon) so maybe a flat number between 70-80k instead of a +5 bonus would be fair if you are dead bent on using a vorpal weapon. (Too pricy for a low- to early-mid- level gameplay, but still allowing you to add this quality to a +7 or +8 weapon later on.

[Crake]

My first campaign ever, my party & I got as loot a Vorpal Butter Knife (1, x1.5, fragile). I decided to hang onto it. Around campaign's end, we were getting bum raped by a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon. I drew the butter knife everyone forgot about and threw it as a last ditch effort. Natural 20. My DM explained that this fight was supposed to be a Made-to-Lose fight against the CR 45 dragon, but since we won, we went from approximately 16th level to 31st. The campaign kinda fell apart after that.

A CR45 dragon should have had a decent AC, did you roll another 20 on the confirm? Or did your DM forget that you still need to confirm the crit to instant kill?

[Immabozo]

Vorpal is an inherently broken ability. Random chance any attack you make will be instant death, no save. The guy above mentioning the druid w/ 16 vorpal natural weapons (vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists, I assume) is a great demonstration of how unbalanced such an ability is.

I was making a wildshaping Druid that took the form of a Gerivar, debating between taking the feat to make all 8 of his natural weapons vorporal, of the feat to give each arm, full attacks allowed by his base attack bonus for 16 attacks total. When I realized I could make all 16 weapons vorporal, the debate was settled.

[Elderand]

The real problem with vorpal, is that once you get it, you tend to encounter a rather large amount of Y'golonac wannabees

[Urpriest]

Here's one way to think about it: without feat support, everyone fails saves on a 1. So vorpal is roughly equivalent to an on-hit death effect with a very low DC. The fact that things without heads are immune is roughly equivalent to creatures immune to death effects being immune, maybe a little better. So roughly you've got an item that casts a 5th level spell on every hit, with a fairly low DC. I'd use that as a starting point.

[Talderas]

A few things to keep in mind about vorpal. It's efficacy is dependent on how far away from death you trigger it against the target. Remember the hit itself would be a critical hit. Also, the nature of vorpal is such that it's probability of occurring remains the same regardless of what iterative or penalties you're stacking on.

So the best usage of vorpal would be in getting a lot of attacks and directing them against multiple foes (something that is much more difficult for a melee character to do) or get +1 Vorpal slashing arrows if your GM allows it. Vorpal only says slashing weapons in the description and it's only in the melee weapons special ability random generation chart that it specifies melee.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember the hit itself would be a critical hit.

False. The hit itself would be a hit, and a critical threat.

[Immabozo]

So the crit does not have to confirm?

[nedz]

A few things to keep in mind about vorpal. It's efficacy is dependent on how far away from death you trigger it against the target. Remember the hit itself would be a critical hit. Also, the nature of vorpal is such that it's probability of occurring remains the same regardless of what iterative or penalties you're stacking on.

So the best usage of vorpal would be in getting a lot of attacks and directing them against multiple foes (something that is much more difficult for a melee character to do) or get +1 Vorpal slashing arrows if your GM allows it. Vorpal only says slashing weapons in the description and it's only in the melee weapons special ability random generation chart that it specifies melee.

So ... Whirlwind Attack and plenty of reach: Snickerty-Snack.
Or is that just the one attack roll: leading to an occasional mini-armageddon.

[Yomega]

A CR45 dragon should have had a decent AC, did you roll another 20 on the confirm? Or did your DM forget that you still need to confirm the crit to instant kill?

He said it was fragile iirc you can have the weapon break to auto confirm a critical hit

[Gavinfoxx]

So the crit does not have to confirm?

*double checks*

Hunh. You're right, it does have to confirm to trigger vorpal. My bad.

[SowZ]

A few things to keep in mind about vorpal. It's efficacy is dependent on how far away from death you trigger it against the target. Remember the hit itself would be a critical hit. Also, the nature of vorpal is such that it's probability of occurring remains the same regardless of what iterative or penalties you're stacking on.

So the best usage of vorpal would be in getting a lot of attacks and directing them against multiple foes (something that is much more difficult for a melee character to do) or get +1 Vorpal slashing arrows if your GM allows it. Vorpal only says slashing weapons in the description and it's only in the melee weapons special ability random generation chart that it specifies melee.

Yeah, if I was high enough level to afford a Vorpal sword, with a minimum +6 weapon, I am pretty sure I'd be able to kill most things of appropriate CR on a critical hit regardless. Hence, I don't think it is actually that powerful except at low-op, maybe. But even then it isn't unfair. A player with a +5 flaming weapon will get much more consistent usefullness than the Vorpal weapon. Besides, sometimes the vorpal will trigger when the boss is almost dead or against a mook or something. So it won't even come into play 5% of the time. You could go many sessions before it comes up.

[Ernir]

I would not re-price it. If anything, I would ban it. It just so happens that thus far the +5 price tag has made no player want it and none of my DMs has been enough of a jerk to exploit it on a monster, so it hasn't been an issue.
I agree with this.

Vorpal works in one of a few ways, AFAICT:
You have it, and can't enforce nat 20s. It's something that sometimes "just happens" and instantly ends the opponent. You can not count on it, you do not expend anything, you're either in luck or you're not.
You have it, and can enforce nat 20s. Congratulations, you have a surprisingly reliable kill-button.

If I were (re)designing Vorpal, I'd give make it an x/day or y/encounter ability that enforces death by decapitation on a successful hit followed by a DC Z failed saving throw. And I'd price it from +2 or +3 to +5 depending on the variables.

So the crit does not have to confirm?

It does have to confirm.

Here's the rules text, looks like this thread could use the reference:

Vorpal
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)
Emphasis mine.


He said it was fragile iirc you can have the weapon break to auto confirm a critical hit

I have never seen such a rule.

[Tokuhara]

To explain:

The dragon, while having good ac, was flat-footed (it was a party of 4 casters and a beatstick) after the sorcerer cast a spell to make it flat-footed on a save. It rolled a natural 1. So I, a druid, threw the weapon, knowing that I could only hit the dragon on a Natural 20 and I rolled 2 Natural 20's in a row (It has never happened again since) and iced the dragon with a butter knife.

And at the time, the DM made up a fragile condition (he didn't have the proper books for it) and said that the weapon only got one use before it would be irreversably broken. Now, 6 months had passed in a 1-16 time and I hung onto that butter knife in the thought of "I might need this later." My DM forgot I had it, and I thought, "Well. We're boned. Better try something." because round 1, it's BW killed the beatstick (IIRC a Dwarf Fighter/Deepwarden/Dwarven Defender with a magic carpet), the wizard, and the cleric (we were set up in a T, with myself and the sorcerer on the outside, and the three corpses down the center.) due to us forgetting to rest up after a rough fight with 3 Purple Worms and a small group of Frost Giants with Crusader Levels. So I decided, seeing a dragon that I couldn't reliably hit and my wildshapes/spells burned out, I threw the knife at the dragon, much to the surprise of the DM, and the events above transpired.

[JaronK]

A few things to keep in mind about vorpal. It's efficacy is dependent on how far away from death you trigger it against the target. Remember the hit itself would be a critical hit. Also, the nature of vorpal is such that it's probability of occurring remains the same regardless of what iterative or penalties you're stacking on.

So the best usage of vorpal would be in getting a lot of attacks and directing them against multiple foes (something that is much more difficult for a melee character to do) or get +1 Vorpal slashing arrows if your GM allows it. Vorpal only says slashing weapons in the description and it's only in the melee weapons special ability random generation chart that it specifies melee.

Basically, a Vorpal thrown weapon on a Bloodstorm Blade is what you're suggesting. That lets you attack every enemy in range once, once per round, and you can throw melee weapons to do it if you like.

Anyway, I agree with other posters that the ability is just too random... discount it and you end up auto killing things all over the place, keep it where it is and it's usually useless. It's like the Deck of Many Things that way... too random for game balance.

I'd probably revise it to something like "Vorpal weapons always deal critical hit damage when they critically hit, even if the target is immune to critical hits normally. Because they bypass critical hit immunity, abilities like sneak attack that rely on the ability to land critical hits work against critical immunes when used with Vorpal weapons" or something like that, and lower the price to a +3 enchantment or something.

That might be very nice for Rogues and the like.

JaronK

[SowZ]

Basically, a Vorpal thrown weapon on a Bloodstorm Blade is what you're suggesting. That lets you attack every enemy in range once, once per round, and you can throw melee weapons to do it if you like.

Anyway, I agree with other posters that the ability is just too random... discount it and you end up auto killing things all over the place, keep it where it is and it's usually useless. It's like the Deck of Many Things that way... too random for game balance.

I'd probably revise it to something like "Vorpal weapons always deal critical hit damage when they critically hit, even if the target is immune to critical hits normally. Because they bypass critical hit immunity, abilities like sneak attack that rely on the ability to land critical hits work against critical immunes when used with Vorpal weapons" or something like that, and lower the price to a +3 enchantment or something.

That might be very nice for Rogues and the like.

JaronK

Maybe even give automatic critical hit confirmation on a roll of a nat 20 against enemies not immune to critical hits as a bit of a throwback to previous editions of Vorpal to keep the developers/some fans happy.

[Talderas]

Basically, a Vorpal thrown weapon on a Bloodstorm Blade is what you're suggesting. That lets you attack every enemy in range once, once per round, and you can throw melee weapons to do it if you like.

Anyway, I agree with other posters that the ability is just too random... discount it and you end up auto killing things all over the place, keep it where it is and it's usually useless. It's like the Deck of Many Things that way... too random for game balance.

I'd probably revise it to something like "Vorpal weapons always deal critical hit damage when they critically hit, even if the target is immune to critical hits normally. Because they bypass critical hit immunity, abilities like sneak attack that rely on the ability to land critical hits work against critical immunes when used with Vorpal weapons" or something like that, and lower the price to a +3 enchantment or something.

That might be very nice for Rogues and the like.

JaronK

I say there's two ways to use vorpal, get a massive number attack rolls or find a way to attack a massive number of enemies with a single attack roll and find a way to force your attack roll to be a 20 (which is why I like the idea of using vorpal slashing arrows). I don't think the latter method is achievable but it would be friggin sweet.

The problem with vorpal isn't so much cost as how the cost is applied. It's a +5 enhancement bonus. That's the problem. It's an opportunity cost issue. You can do so much more, reliably, with +5 than you would get out of dumping it into Vorpal. The same thing can be said of any effective weapon enhancement from +1 to +5. Vorpal's cost need not come down, it just needs to be static and not count against the weapon's enhancement like various armor enhancements that have a straight cost. Of course, calculating that straight cost is a bit difficult because the cost of adding vorpal to a +5 longsword is far more than adding it to a +1 longsword.

[Rijan_Sai]

Vorpal's cost need not come down, it just needs to be static and not count against the weapon's enhancement like various armor enhancements that have a straight cost. Of course, calculating that straight cost is a bit difficult because the cost of adding vorpal to a +5 longsword is far more than adding it to a +1 longsword.

110,000?
The average between adding to the +1 (70,000) and the +5 (150,000). (Also comes out the same if you add all 5 amounts: 70k, 90k, 110k, 130k, 150k.)

Or maybe 50,000?
From the DMG guidelines for Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues): adding Weapon bonus (enhancement): bonus squared x 2000. ((5*5)*2000=50,000)

Maybe not, but it's a starting point...

[Stannum (IV)]

I believe there's an enhancement from the MIC, prismatic something or another, which is a single-target prismatic spray (save DC 20), which is save-or-die about half the time, and triggers on every crit. Flat cost in the range of 70000g I think. Doesn't specify natural 20 as the threat, makes no specific mention of requiring a confirmation roll (thus allowing automatically confirmed crits), and can be placed on piercing, bludgeoning, and ranged weapons. I'd say that the target being allowed a save and the randomness counteract those advantages enough to put it about on par with vorpal. I've just been directing my players to it whenever they mention vorpal weapons. In any case, it seems a pretty good starting point for repricing or otherwise modifying the vorpal ability.
(I don't actually have the book on me, so it'd be best to check those numbers.)