[PF] Equipment Trick Feat Opinion

[Chained Birds]

Equipment Trick (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat)

So how good is this feat?

I personally think it is a pretty cool feat for Fighters as it gives them (essentially) class features the more feats they invest into their chosen Equipment Trick(s). Though I'm not sure how well these abilities work later in the character's career or if there are any E Tricks that a high level character would want.

Opinions?

[StreamOfTheSky]

It sucks, mostly. I guess the rope one has some uses, but rope is so easy to destroy and even with the fast coiling is still unwieldy to use in combat. You can spend other feats to get tricks. But most of these feats also suck, so you're basically paying $10 to get a $5 prize.

The shield sample feats especially annoy me because of how blatantly obtuse the designer is:

"•Hurl Shield (Throw Anything): You can throw your shield as a ranged improvised weapon. You must be holding (not wearing) your shield to perform this trick. If you are using a throwing shield, there is no reason to use this trick."

Why, how thoughtful! He realized that this trick is pointless if already using a throwing shield and says as much! But....every single other throwing-related trick requires throw anything w/o a clause "or using a throwing shield", so I guess he was just trolling us.

[Chained Birds]

It also mentions something about using your boot in the description about the feat, which I thought would make reference to the Blade Boot, and something to due with a cloak, though nothing was made for them. Maybe this feat is telling people to make their own series of abilities using the lists given as examples...
Which sounds pretty silly once I think about it, but that's besides the point.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, that is exactly the point of the feat. To make up your own series, based upon the examples given. I was rating the examples given, which largely suck. But the feat is basically telling the DM to make up his own rules, so how powerful or worthless the feat is for other pieces of equipment will vary incredibly wildly by DM.

I guess you could have fun with it, at least. Make up Equipment Trick (codpiece) examples, make them as funny and overpowered as possible, and ask your DM for approval. Should be good for a laugh, at least.

[Chained Birds]

I guess I could show this feat off to the Homebrew thread and see what people can come up with, or see if anyone has come up with anything already.

But are there really no tricks worth the investment?

[Crustypeanut]

I like the various 'throw shield' tricks.. combine that with a Throwing Returning Shield.. and you have Captain America! Woo!

Overall though, they're not great, but do have a nice bit of flavor about them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Like I said, the rope ones aren't terrible. Whether it's worth it or not largely depends on your build plans and if you actually have anything better to spend the feats on or not.

As for captain america.... PF is extremely inhospitable to thrower builds. You could much more easily make the Cap' in 3E using Bloodstorm Blade alone, than you could with any amount of PF splat material.

[Chained Birds]

The ones that seem pretty good IMO:

Scabbard
- Steer Opponent: Though the Flat-Footed deal is pretty bad if you roll poorly, I do like the ability to use Bull Rush to gain an attack advantage over moving the opponent. It is nice early levels before you gain access to Greater Bull Rush, but afterwards it becomes pretty unnecessary unless you can use the attack bonus on a Bull Rush Attempt; so you Bull Rush an opponent before you Bull Rush them to make your Bull Rushing better.

Shield
- Little Wall: I think gaining Cover using a regular shield is pretty great. If I recall, there are a few Halfling Feats that allow you to fight while gaining total cover against larger foes so this trick might work out for those builds.
- Break Ground: If anything, even if you miss with this trick your opponent is now on difficult terrain. This could be pretty interesting if you use it on a large enemy that would still be on the shield's square even if it tried to move away.

Rope
- Hogtie: A good enough trick for a Grapple build, which actually is one of the few tricks that a higher level character might be interested in.
- Lifeline: Seeing as it just needs some Skill investments, it seems like a pretty decent trick which might be able to save a character from a pitfall trap or something similar.
- Tangle: Touch Attack Entanglement for a round (Or more if the enemy is a weakling). Not the worst thing ever even if you need Throw Anything... Maybe a Monk would like this.

Sunrod
- ... I've got nothing. All of these suck.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Steer Opponent: It sucks. You have to be using a scabbard in hand, spend a swift action, succeed on a combat maneuver check, and get a small (usually +2, maybe +3) bonus on your next attack. And if you fail, you're flatfooted. Not worth using. And using it to set up an actual bull rush with a +2 bonus is even more pointless than hoping a foe will fail a will save against Mind Fog so that.... he'll take a big penalty on will saves. If you can win the bull rush check to begin with, just bull rush. If I used this trick, won the bull rush as a swift for a +2 or whatever, then rolled a nat 3 and failed the actual bull rush attempt....I'd be a very sad panda.

Little Wall: It's cover in return for +6 AC (3 acrobatics ranks is not hard to afford) from total defense, which is actually less AC than you'd normally be entitled. Having cover in and of itself may have some value, but taking the total defense action really isn't something you want to be doing anyway.

Break Ground: This one is ok, save for the Throw anything gripe I mentioned. Kind of odd it specifies in place of a "melee attack" when a creature is free to mix ranged and melee attacks in his full attack action however he pleases anyway. I'd just be leery of throwing away my shield at mid and high levels, too easy for it to get crushed or stolen....

Hogtie: Definitely a good trick. The rope won't hold creatures at mid and high levels for long, but still long enough to coup de grace the **** out of them, which is all you really need.

Lifeline: It's decent, just really *really* situational.

Tangle: Good ability, but the feat required is a shame.

As I said, the rope tricks were definitely the most promising set.

[Chained Birds]

I read the Steer Opponent trick of not needing to actually wield the scabbard to use it. If that is the case, then the feat was worse than I thought...

[Shishoka]

Yes, that is exactly the point of the feat. To make up your own series, based upon the examples given. I was rating the examples given, which largely suck. But the feat is basically telling the DM to make up his own rules, so how powerful or worthless the feat is for other pieces of equipment will vary incredibly wildly by DM.

I guess you could have fun with it, at least. Make up Equipment Trick (codpiece) examples, make them as funny and overpowered as possible, and ask your DM for approval. Should be good for a laugh, at least.

Reminds me of that guy with the codpiece gun in From Dusk 'Til Dawn.

[Shishoka]

"Equipment Trick" does kind of suck. Best class I can see for it is the rogue or bard on the grounds that they're supposed to be "tricky." Personally I say consider it a combat style feat with the prerequisite of having "throw anything" or "catch off-guard" and give it a full spectrum deal. Take the feat and you are especially skilled at using your belt as a whip, a pair of extra boots as bolas, etc. Normally "throw anything" and "catch off-guard" give you the ability to use improvised weapons without penalty. With "equipment trick" you can use them for combat maneuvers without penalty. Also, eliminate the additional feat requirement to perform the trick. If you have the additional feats requirements then "equipment trick" not only enables the combat maneuver without penalty but allows you to apply the bonuses from the additional feat. For example: Break Ground is using your shield to make a ranged trip attack.
Don't have Throw Anything, Equipment Trick, and Improved Trip? You suffer the penalty for an improvised weapon and a called shot to the leg(s). Have Throw Anything? Just the penalty for the called shot. Have Equipment Trick? Well, now you are making a combat maneuver attempt instead of a called shot so that penalty is gone and it now goes against the targets Combat Maneuver Defense. Also Have Improved Trip? You get the +2 bonus to the roll; GM discretion on whether the ranged combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from enemies in melee.

Taking it once applies to any improvised weapon that is made from a piece of equipment. A broken bottle? That's not equipment? Your travel mug? Call it a tea cup and pull a Riddick with a piece of rock (or without). Some might be worried that this suddenly makes the feat overpowered to which I say tweak to preferences.

[Dysart]

Can someone explain to me how this is bad:

"Steer Opponent (Requires Improved Bull Rush):
You can use your scabbard to move a foe into the perfect position for you to make your attack.
As a swift action, use your scabbard to make a bull rush against an opponent.
If you succeed, instead of pushing him back, you direct your target into the path of your next attack. You gain +2 bonus on your next attack roll against the target, and +1 for ever additional 5 feet your bull rush could have pushed your opponent back.
If you fail the bull rush attempt, you are considered flat-footed against the target until your next turn."

+2 or more for a swift action isn't that terrible in my eyes. Especially as in the rules of Scabbard trick you don't even have to have the scabbard in your hand, just attached to your belt!

and Tangle Leg is alright in my books also. It's a ranged trip just for taking 2 feats, one of which you'd be taking to be better at trips anyway.

Plus... let's be honest, if that happened in a film we'd be clammering to call it badass.

[daremetoidareyo]

I like this feat. It would be a really nice dead level feat for fighters/monk/rogue.

What would "equipment trick: tanglefoot bag" do?

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.