Dual-type creatures

[Deepbluediver]

Ok, I'm wondering about what effect (if any) having creatures with more than one type would create in a game.

What I mean is, a half-elf(half-human) is still humanoid, because that's what both halves are. But a half-dragon/half-elf would be Dragon/Humanoid. Other common combinations might include Outsiders and Elementals.

It doesn't all have to be hereditary either; certain classes grant abilities and features similar to other creature types, such as the Dragon Shaman and Dread Necromancer. Maybe even Druid-animal (ok, I admit I'm reaching a bit on that one, but I think you get the point).

What would it be like having a PC who was both Humanoid and Undead?


I'm not sure if there is an official source for something like this; I think I recall reading somewhere about an "enhanced" or "augmented" creature type that got the traits of one group and the features of another, but I can't seem to find it now.

[LTwerewolf]

No one has two types, the types change depending. For example the half-dragon is dragon type, not humanoid. Dread necromancer becomes undead, not humanoid/undead.

[Deepbluediver]

No one has two types, the types change depending. For example the half-dragon is dragon type, not humanoid. Dread necromancer becomes undead, not humanoid/undead.

Yes, I am aware of that. I am asking what would happen if this where not the case.

Under the current rules, it seems like there is some sort of hierarchy of types, in which being part dragon overrules everything else, except undead, and humanoid is on the bottom.

But in the infinte variety of D&D, I want to know what would happen if I created a half red-dragon, half yellow musk creeper with both the plant and Dragon types.

Or, if my draco-liches retained their dragon-type as well.

[LTwerewolf]

I suppose what you would need to do would be to make that hierarchy of types and affects that supersede each other, to give you an idea of what would get what.

Plant and dragon for example would probably get most of the dragon types, but also an immunity to precision damage, poison, and polymorph.

[Urpriest]

Some things are relatively straightforward: there are a couple feats and templates that let you count as some other type in addition to your own for the purpose of some list of effects, so it's not absurd to apply in some cases.

That said, you'll have a lot of trouble dealing with RHD. Each type is basically a class in RHD terms, so balancing a Dragon//Undead would be about as tricky as balancing a Barbarian//Fighter. Are you just gestalting things, which would result in a net power increase? Averaging, which leads to ambiguities? Using some sort of type pyramid? Lots of options, no clear right one.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, I discovered something in a campaign I ran recently where a majority of enemies that we fought had the dragonblooded subtype; having creatures that count as multiple types of creatures greatly increases the usefulness of both Favored Enemy and similar class features, and bane weapons. To the extent where a kind of Bane Magic feat or someone with the Dragonslayer or Dragonstalker prc would have been seriously bad for the game, because the extra damage from these intentionally narrowly-defined sources would apply in most combats.

Not like it's the end of the world, but pcs in my game tend to be pretty strong already; they don't need another advantage.

In any case, the same applies for any creature specific affect. Hold person now works on anything that is part-humanoid. Same with Turn Undead. The aberration-slaying or fiend-slaying prcs stand to benefit as well, with more monsters counting as part of one or the other type. You'd also have to redefine how raise dead/resurrection line of spells works, since there are several creature types that usually can't benefit from said spells; could the hybrid elemental/humanoid be raised?

[Pyromancer999]

No creature can have two types. However, there's more than a few creatures that have traits of other types. For example, there is a creature in the Draconomicon that is of the Aberration type, but also has been given the traits of the Dragon type.

[Deepbluediver]

No creature can have two types.

Ok, sorry if this is confusing; but I am asking: What if they DID?

I didn't really think this was homebrew, since I didn't have any mechanics written up. I was mostly asking how it could potentially affect things.

And I've gotten some good feedback.


That said, you'll have a lot of trouble dealing with RHD. Each type is basically a class in RHD terms, so balancing a Dragon//Undead would be about as tricky as balancing a Barbarian//Fighter. Are you just gestalting things, which would result in a net power increase? Averaging, which leads to ambiguities? Using some sort of type pyramid? Lots of options, no clear right one.

Hmmm....

For class-related stuff, I figure they can have most of the original creature types, and I could add in whatever abilities I wanted; pretty much how like it is now, just with a second creature type.

For the bloodlines, I guess a gestalt of the different types would be the easiet.
If I did make a pyramid-style setup, Undead would probably be at the top, with Humanoids, Animals, Plants, and Vermin on the bottom. Eveything else is undecided.
I could probably rule that types from the same tier couldn't cross-breed, so you don't end up with weird combinations like half-dragon/half-outsider.

Constructs can't breed, obviously, though maybe something like warforged should be Humanoid/Construct, which would explain where they get their free will and ability to learn.


Actually, I discovered something in a campaign I ran recently where a majority of enemies that we fought had the dragonblooded subtype; having creatures that count as multiple types of creatures greatly increases the usefulness of both Favored Enemy and similar class features, and bane weapons.

In any case, the same applies for any creature specific affect. Hold person now works on anything that is part-humanoid. Same with Turn Undead. The aberration-slaying or fiend-slaying prcs stand to benefit as well, with more monsters counting as part of one or the other type.

They could also be targeted by any benefitial spell as well though; I don't know if there are more or less of those that target specific races.

Assuming that half-whatevers where strictly more powerful and/or more versatile than the pureblooded versions (via Gestalt RHD method), would this be a fair tradeoff? What about for the class-related dual types?


You'd also have to redefine how raise dead/resurrection line of spells works, since there are several creature types that usually can't benefit from said spells; could the hybrid elemental/humanoid be raised?

Hmmm...

I guess if half of the creature has a soul, then all of it gets a soul. You could probably argue either way that the combined nature of it's non-soul half makes it either harder or easier to raise them from the dead.

Alternatively, I guess you could say that the half with a soul can be raised from the dead, as a full HD pureblooded type, but that introduces lots more questions, I think.


Any other thoughts?

[Deepbluediver]

I did some more thinking and reading overnight, and while the theoretical idea of a dragon-cactus was fun, what I was really interested in when I started this thread is what would happen if I let classes eventually grant dual-type, possibly as part of a capstone or other high-level ability. Would it drastically break the game in some way? Either to make them to powerful or to vulnerable?

I think I've already mentioned the most common combinations, to which we can probably add the PF version of the Sorcerer as "variable".

Here's my current (short) list, if anyone has any any suggestions for other logical combinations I'd love to hear them.
Dragon Shaman- Dragon
Monk- Outsider
Dread Necromancer- Undead
Sorcerer- variable
Druid- Animal
Favored Soul- Outsider
Warlock- Outsider
Shugenja- Elemental

I've come to realize that I don't even need to make up weird combinations to find creatures that skirt the border between one group and another.
The are a whole bunch of non-good/evil outsiders that seem to have a really heavily elementally influenced flavor (genies, djinn, etc), and there are a bunch of Elemental/Humanoids as well, the Genasi.

[Vaz]

Well, for RHD; if both mid point the benefits of the RHD; sort of similar to Fractional BAB or whatever.

I.e, D8 Hit Die Template and a D12 Hit Die Template makes the half type D10. If it was a D10 and a D12, it would D10 Hit Die. If it was a D6 with a D12, it would be D8 (the Mid Point is a D9, as that's not a dice, it's D8).

Same for Skills; if RHD gave 2+Int as skills, and another gave 8+Int as skills, the difference is 6, so 5+Int is the mid point; however it's always an even number; therefore it's 4+ Int.

BAB; one could give Full BAB (Dragon), another could give Poor BAB; so half way would be Medium BAB (as a Cleric).

For class features, use the highest?

Alternatively, just straight "Gestalt" the RHD.

[Malimar]

The "creatures cannot, under any circumstances have more than one Type" answer is not wrong, because it definitely seems to currently be true.

However, it isn't quite complete, because it hasn't always been true: the 3.0e Epic Level Handbook included two creatures that had two Types each. (I don't know if any such creatures appeared in the 3.0e Monster Manual I; I'm pretty sure that no such creatures appeared in MMII.)

Anaxims were "Construct, Outsider" and atropals were "Undead, Outsider".

The errata is... weird. It added "Undead, Outsider (Lawful): atropal", "Outsider (Lawful): atropal", and "Outsider (Evil): atropal" to the "Monsters by Type (and subtype)" section (and didn't remove "Undead, Outsider (Evil): atropal"), but didn't actually add the [Lawful] subtype to the atropal's stat block. It didn't change the Anaxim at all. In the SRD, both creatures have been changed (anaxims to Construct and atropals to Undead).

I could speculate about the reasoning (I imagine it involves the line where abominations are described as a kind of Outsider, like demons), but I don't really have much more in the way of hard facts on the subject, and would be filled if joy if anybody with more facts could shed some light on what really happened.

[ShurikVch]

No one has two types, the types change depending. For example the half-dragon is dragon type, not humanoid. Dread necromancer becomes undead, not humanoid/undead.
In the Epic Level Handbook...
Anaxim originally printed as "Construct Outsider" and Atropal as "Undead Outsider"