Pathfinder attempted to kill PF D20SRD (license), it got better

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, you know that Pathfinder was nice to make almost everything free on their SRDs.
They decided now to kill/shut them down. D20SRD had to adapt restrictive measures to stay alive.

A poster mentioned this fact that this is happening here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?670531-Comparing-the-D-amp-D-and-Pathfinder-Product-Lines-to-Discern-Why-4E-Failed/page7

Here is where PF D20 SRD explains situation
https://plus.google.com/+d20pfsrdcom/posts/YhsdMxRGKd4#+d20pfsrdcom/posts/YhsdMxRGKd4


" Paizo feels that now that d20pfsrd.com is acting as a storefront for Pathfinder publishers, they no longer fall under the Paizo Community Use policy. This means they can't use Paizo material that's not under the OGL -- the example given is NPC names."
So the SRD people have had to change things around to more neutral (no longer have art), change wordings, etc.

Wasn't PF started over SRD related situation in the first place (4E's OGL)?

This seems hypocrisy a little even if within their rights.

[Sacrieur]

d20pfsrd.com started profiting off of it. That's the name of the game.

Pazio is being fair here.

[docnessuno]

Okay, you know that Pathfinder was nice to make almost everything free on their SRDs.
They decided now to kill/shut them down. D20SRD had to adapt restrictive measures to stay alive.

A poster mentioned this fact that this is happening here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?670531-Comparing-the-D-amp-D-and-Pathfinder-Product-Lines-to-Discern-Why-4E-Failed/page7

Here is where PF D20 SRD explains situation
https://plus.google.com/+d20pfsrdcom/posts/YhsdMxRGKd4#+d20pfsrdcom/posts/YhsdMxRGKd4


" Paizo feels that now that d20pfsrd.com is acting as a storefront for Pathfinder publishers, they no longer fall under the Paizo Community Use policy. This means they can't use Paizo material that's not under the OGL -- the example given is NPC names."
So the SRD people have had to change things around to more neutral (no longer have art), change wordings, etc.

Wasn't PF started over SRD related situation in the first place (4E's OGL)?

This seems hypocrisy a little even if within their rights.

I was concerned at first, but after a careful reading, i have to support Paizon on this (even if im an enthusiastic user and editor of PFSRD).

PFSRD decided to open a commercial store linked to the site, this prompted Paizo to ask the site itself to comply to the " Pathfinder Compatibility License", wich is slightly more restrictive than the " Pathfinder Community Use Policy" they were using previously.

PFSRD would still be allowed to host about 99% of what is currently hosting, just having to remove pictures from Paizo sourcebooks, maybe some flavour text and names/backgrounds of NPCs/organizations (while still being hallowed to host their complete builds). This is still much more then WotC ever allowed.

[Psyren]

One thing I like to keep in mind when stuff like this happens is how utterly ridiculous and byzantine copyright law has gotten. The Giant himself commented (relating to OotS fansites and other derivative works that used his art) on how failure to defend your IP to almost draconian levels can come back to bite you when someone much less scrupulous decides to use it against your wishes. This is a similar flavor of the foolishness behind the Bethesda "Scrolls" lawsuit. (http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/?p=3327)

Not saying that's necessarily what's happening here - I don't know all the details nor am I giving legal advice of any kind - but it's good to keep in mind that the system itself is faulty. So the PFSRD, when it went from being a purely informational wiki to a storefront, may have crossed some invisible line that only a lawyer can see. But being invisible makes such lines no less real.

[Deophaun]

One thing I like to keep in mind when stuff like this happens is how utterly ridiculous and byzantine copyright law has gotten. The Giant himself commented (relating to OotS fansites and other derivative works that used his art) on how failure to defend your IP to almost draconian levels can come back to bite you when someone much less scrupulous decides to use it against your wishes.
There's a difference between copyright law (which would cover OotS #105) and trademark law (which would cover the character Xykon). You don't have to defend copyrights to maintain them. You do have to defend trademarks.

[Answerer]

When are people going to learn that Paizo is a profit-seeking company, and all of their feel-good stuff about supporting the community and the game is just marketing? It's been really clear ever since the beta test publicity stunt.

It's not even a criticism of them, as a company (I have plenty of those but this isn't one). Every company engages in this sort of thing. I'm just surprised at how many people don't recognize it, considering how every company engages in this sort of thing.

[BRC]

Eh, it's not a big deal. I know basically nothing about Pathfinder fluff, so removing all the specific names and copyrighted pictures does not really effect me very much.

it's a headache for the people who run the site, since they now need to go change stuff, but I wouldn't call that an Assassination Attempt.

[JoshuaZ]

This seems like a completely reasonable thing for Pathfinder to do if they want to stay in business. They need to make some compromises between keeping the community happy and having some form of profit. Asking to reduce the amount of fluff and artwork is a pretty obvious and easy to comply with set of steps. The title here is not accurate: Pathfinder has tried to get the website to change the license they are using if they are going to be also selling stuff.

This isn't even do much to actual players unless you are playing in the actual Pathfinder world in which case you can be nice and actually buy their stuff which they've put in a lot of effort into.

[Psyren]

There's a difference between copyright law (which would cover OotS #105) and trademark law (which would cover the character Xykon). You don't have to defend copyrights to maintain them. You do have to defend trademarks.

Not necessarily. The "implied consent" defense - where an infringer is known about but nothing is done about them for a period of time - can be used in both copyright and trademark cases. The former are much harder for the infringer to win but it would still be a costly and unwanted battle on both sides.


When are people going to learn that Paizo is a profit-seeking company, and all of their feel-good stuff about supporting the community and the game is just marketing? It's been really clear ever since the beta test publicity stunt.

It's not even a criticism of them, as a company (I have plenty of those but this isn't one). Every company engages in this sort of thing. I'm just surprised at how many people don't recognize it, considering how every company engages in this sort of thing.

Give the devil his due - this could have gone much further and been much worse for everyone involved. WotC certainly did.


This seems like a completely reasonable thing for Pathfinder to do if they want to stay in business. They need to make some compromises between keeping the community happy and having some form of profit. Asking to reduce the amount of fluff and artwork is a pretty obvious and easy to comply with set of steps. The title here is not accurate: Pathfinder has tried to get the website to change the license they are using if they are going to be also selling stuff.

Also this.

[Deophaun]

Not necessarily. The "implied consent" defense - where an infringer is known about but nothing is done about them for a period of time - can be used in both copyright and trademark cases. The former are much harder for the infringer to win but it would still be a costly and unwanted battle on both sides.
If you want to extract damages, yes. But you can still tell them to cease and desist and they must comply. You do not lose your copyright because you let people distribute your work for free.

With a trademark, however, if you let people run with it, you lose the ability to assert your claim to it later, as it goes into the public domain. See: Escalator. This is why even nice companies can be very heavy handed when it comes to the protection of trademarks.

[jreyst]

Just to get out in front of this, Paizo has been nothing but polite and pleasant about it. Its a choice I alone made to pursue the store after putting in about 4 years worth of time with absolutely no compensation with thousands and thousands of hours of labor involved. Now I wanted to try to see if I could make have a dime off my hobby and love of Pathfinder by helping support the 3rd Party Publisher community and make a few dollars back from all the time put in. Don't have a ton of time right now since the wife is calling me to dinner but no one should be upset one iota with Paizo. If you want to be angry with anyone it should be me for thinking I might try to make a little money off of this hobby. Be back later to check in.

John

Oh and if someone could pop over to RPG.net and direct them here that'd be appreciated. I now have to go hunt down all the threads popping up everywhere lol

[Psyren]

Thanks for the input John. Torches down, everyone.

[silverwolfer]

Just wiki farm it make money...like doctortum mortum does

[Starbuck_II]

Just to get out in front of this, Paizo has been nothing but polite and pleasant about it. Its a choice I alone made to pursue the store after putting in about 4 years worth of time with absolutely no compensation with thousands and thousands of hours of labor involved. Now I wanted to try to see if I could make have a dime off my hobby and love of Pathfinder by helping support the 3rd Party Publisher community and make a few dollars back from all the time put in. Don't have a ton of time right now since the wife is calling me to dinner but no one should be upset one iota with Paizo. If you want to be angry with anyone it should be me for thinking I might try to make a little money off of this hobby. Be back later to check in.

John

Oh and if someone could pop over to RPG.net and direct them here that'd be appreciated. I now have to go hunt down all the threads popping up everywhere lol

Sorry, I'll put my torch down. I just thought everyone should be in the know of this. It felt like hipo to me since they started PF over a similar situation (4E OGL/GSL/SRD fiasco), but they do have the right.