Natural Weapons Questions

[SirAxealot]

I've been trying to figure out exactly how natural weapons work, and after combing through a number of sources, this is what I've cobbled together.

First, let's posit a hypothetical Level 15 druid wildshaped into a polar bear. This Druid has a TAB of +19/+14/+9. He attempts to hit an enemy standing next to him using unarmed strike in combination with his natural weapons. He gets a full attack, for +19/+14/+9 for his unarmed strikes, then tacks on his natural attacks for +14/+14/+14, since in making the unarmed strikes his claw attacks become secondary attacks just like the bite attack. Is this all correct so far?

For damage, he rolls 1d4 for each unarmed strike, since he's a large creature, then (since the polar bear doesn't appear to have INA or anything, it seems this is the base damage) 1d8 for each claw and 2d6 for the bite. Each of these get all the strength bonus and other things, of course, but those are the die rolled. Still good?

Questions:
1) What is the crit multiplier for natural weapons? I assume it's x2
2) Power attack and natural weapons: Do all natural weapons have a 1:1 Power Attack penalty to damage ratio? This seems to be the case, but it also seems to be a bit odd.
3) Rapidstrike: If our hypothetical Druid added rapidstrike to the above full attack, would he add an additional claw attack at +14, or +9?
4) Does Snap Kick work with natural weapons? I see no reason why it wouldn't, but just checking.
5) Rake: if in a form with it, how is that attack bonus for the rake determined? It appears to be made with the highest TAB. Presumably if you make iteratives first then it suffers from the same -5 penalty that all secondary natural attacks do?
6) Beast Strike: If our druid made the full attack, then for his unarmed attacks he would roll 1d4+1d8 for each unarmed strike, and can then make his secondary natural attacks as usual?

I'm sure I will think of some more.

[GenericMook]

I should be able to answer some of these questions, but I'm not 100% sure I'm right.

1) Yeah. Unless it's stated otherwise, default crit multiplier is x2.
2) 1:1 ratio. It's exactly like using a one-handed weapon. Same thing applies to unarmed strikes.
3) He'd make his second attack at -5 of his original claw attack, so +9 in this case.
4) Snap Kick states:


When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus. You take a -2 penalry on all attack rolls you make this round.

So with a natural weapon, you should be able to make another unarmed attack.
5) Not too familiar with Rake, so I can't answer this.
6) That seems to be the case. It's still part of your unarmed attack.

[Darth Stabber]

Questions:
1) What is the crit multiplier for natural weapons? I assume it's x2
2) Power attack and natural weapons: Do all natural weapons have a 1:1 Power Attack penalty to damage ratio? This seems to be the case, but it also seems to be a bit odd.
3) Rapidstrike: If our hypothetical Druid added rapidstrike to the above full attack, would he add an additional claw attack at +14, or +9?
4) Does Snap Kick work with natural weapons? I see no reason why it wouldn't, but just checking.
5) Rake: if in a form with it, how is that attack bonus for the rake determined? It appears to be made with the highest TAB. Presumably if you make iteratives first then it suffers from the same -5 penalty that all secondary natural attacks do?
6) Beast Strike: If our druid made the full attack, then for his unarmed attacks he would roll 1d4+1d8 for each unarmed strike, and can then make his secondary natural attacks as usual?

1) 20 x2, which is always the case unless otherwise stated
2) PA is 1:1 unless you are wielding a two handed weapon, or a feat/class ability to modify it. If you grab leap attack you can get a 2:1 on a charge with a DC15 jump check.
3) +9, but keep in mind that you have to start out as nonhumanoid. If you are an elan, you're solid.
4) snap kick works with unarmed attacks just fine, but not with just natural weapons. Since you have IUS and are using it, it's not a concern.
5) rake would be at the same -5 as your other natural attacks
6) assuming you are large you are rolling d6s for unarmed damage, not d4s, and then you make your natural weapon attacks.

Also, you should consider multiattack. It reduces the penalty for secondary weapons to -2. Improved multiattack is probably unnecessary as all it does is negate the -2.

[SirAxealot]

1) 20 x2, which is always the case unless otherwise stated
2) PA is 1:1 unless you are wielding a two handed weapon, or a feat/class ability to modify it. If you grab leap attack you can get a 2:1 on a charge with a DC15 jump check.
3) +9, but keep in mind that you have to start out as nonhumanoid. If you are an elan, you're solid.
4) snap kick works with unarmed attacks just fine, but not with just natural weapons. Since you have IUS and are using it, it's not a concern.
5) rake would be at the same -5 as your other natural attacks
6) assuming you are large you are rolling d6s for unarmed damage, not d4s, and then you make your natural weapon attacks.

Also, you should consider multiattack. It reduces the penalty for secondary weapons to -2. Improved multiattack is probably unnecessary as all it does is negate the -2.

re 2) what feat or class features modify that, other than leap attack?

I already know about multiattack, I just don't have any questions about it - it's thankfully straightforward.

Edit: thanks also for the d6 correction

[Darth Stabber]

re 2) what feat or class features modify that, other than leap attack?

I already know about multiattack, I just don't have any questions about it - it's thankfully straightforward.

Edit: thanks also for the d6 correction

Frenzied berserker ups your PA ratio all the time. That and leap attack are the only ones I can come up with at the moment.

[SirAxealot]

Cool, thanks.

[SirAxealot]

Checking out Improved Rapidstrike:

If you have a pair of natural weapons...you can make two or more extra attacks with one of those weapons, the first at a —5 penalty and the second and subsequent attacks at an additional —5, but never more than four extra attacks...

So, assuming the polar bear druid above somehow had improved rapidstrike: claw, would his attack then look like this:

unarmed strikes: +19/+14/+9
natural attacks: +14/+14/+14
Rapidstrike: +9
Improved Rapidstrike: +4/+4/+4

If that's the case then it seems that Improved Rapidstrike is only worth using if you're not using unarmed strike.

[SirAxealot]

Other options would be

Natural attacks: +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+9, passing up on the unarmed strikes.

Adding Multiattack to the Unarmed Strike and secondaries (improved rapidstrike):
+19/+17n/+17n/+17n/+14/+12n/+12n/+12n/+9 where attacks with n are natural weapons

Adding Improved Multiattack to that gives you +19/+19n/+19n/+19n/+14/+14n/+14n/+14n/+9, I believe.

There are other feats you can add to this, of course, but I'm not going to do it for all of them.

[Darrin]

4) snap kick works with unarmed attacks just fine, but not with just natural weapons. Since you have IUS and are using it, it's not a concern.


Snap Kick should work fine with natural weapons, whether it's a standard attack with one natural weapon or a primary/secondary/secondary thing on a full attack. You just have to make sure the extra attack granted by Snap Kick is an unarmed strike, and not some other natural weapon.


Frenzied berserker ups your PA ratio all the time. That and leap attack are the only ones I can come up with at the moment.

Some others:

Spirited Charge (Core)
Valorous enhancement (Champions of Valor, added via Kensai or Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a))
Headlong Rush (Races of Faerun/online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a))
Decisive Strike ACF (PHBII)

Not sure if that covers them all...

[Immabozo]

no. You shift into a form and you have the methods of attack listed in the monster's entry in the book. There are no extra "unarmed attacks" and you do not get more natural attacks for high BAB. Rake is only useful in a grapple, unless you have pounce, like cave troll, which includes your rakes, of course all is unless stated otherwise.

[Urpriest]

no. You shift into a form and you have the methods of attack listed in the monster's entry in the book. There are no extra "unarmed attacks" and you do not get more natural attacks for high BAB. Rake is only useful in a grapple, unless you have pounce, like cave troll, which includes your rakes, of course all is unless stated otherwise.

Every creature can make unarmed strikes. Few do, because without Improved Unarmed Strike they provoke attacks of opportunity. But every creature can, just as every creature with prehensile limbs can wield weapons.

I see no evidence that the OP has misunderstood the limits on the use of Rake (indeed, grapple or pounce), so I'm not sure why you mentioned it.

[Darth Stabber]

no. You shift into a form and you have the methods of attack listed in the monster's entry in the book.

When you shape shift you keep the benefits of class features and feats, thus keeping IUS, thus allowing iteratives of unarmed strikes.

[Immabozo]

Some monsters DO get more attacks. I was looking at making a wildshaping Druid that, at level 24, shifts into a Gerivar, MM III, page 52. 8 slams per turn. Although I was thinking it would be fun to take the feats to give him 4 armed attacks (full BAB progression) for EACH ARM (4 arms) and then make each axe, or whatever weapon, vorporal, for 16 vorporal attacks per turn.

fun times. Although, I believe the math put this guys average damage in the 500 area, with max damage around 900 when fully buffed (like 2 buffs). So making them all vorporal might be over kill.

This guy could kill the Terrasque easily, single handedly, only needing the wish/miracle spell from another (although I do think I was able to have him shift into a djinn and have him GRANT wish spells himself, in which case, he only needed another character there whose wish to grant)

[Immabozo]

When you shape shift you keep the benefits of class features and feats, thus keeping IUS, thus allowing iteratives of unarmed strikes.

would that stack with all the natural weapons? Hmmm, it is not something I've thought of, but doesn't seem too overpowered... except for the str damage! wow.

[SirAxealot]

Just for the sake of curiosity, what would happen if you had a Druid with a dip into unarmed swordsage or monk? Would their Unarmed Strike progression changed based on their shape's size? That would be my assumption.

[Urpriest]

Just for the sake of curiosity, what would happen if you had a Druid with a dip into unarmed swordsage or monk? Would their Unarmed Strike progression changed based on their shape's size? That would be my assumption.

The progression changes the same way it does if the Monk were naturally a larger size.

[Immabozo]

Just for the sake of curiosity, what would happen if you had a Druid with a dip into unarmed swordsage or monk? Would their Unarmed Strike progression changed based on their shape's size? That would be my assumption.

If so, that's an easy break! Large creature, with Morphic Weapons from Warshaper, Enlarge Person and I cant remember it, but I was just thinking another effect along the same vein, for a +3 size categories (at least for your natural weapons/unarmed attacks)

[SirAxealot]

Why stop at large? Huge is easy enough.

[Immabozo]

true, once you are high enough level for it. But Huge is, I think, a 2 or (maybe) 3 level difference with MoMF

[Artillery]

If your going to do shape shifting, as long as you have 3 or more natural attacks you could get Multiattack. It's very good for Warshapers and MOMF. Takes your penalty on secondary attacks from -5 to -2.

[Immabozo]

only thing, is you must NATURALLY have 3 or more arms to attack with.

[SirAxealot]

It seems that most gamemasters will let you get away with taking it to benefit wildshape. Besides, you could always argue that even as a human you have two slams and a bite or something.

[Immabozo]

kicking more than a bite, but I get your point.

[SirAxealot]

Don't underestimate the damage humans can do with their teeth.

[Urpriest]

only thing, is you must NATURALLY have 3 or more arms to attack with.

That's Multiweapon Fighting, which is a rather different feat.

[SirAxealot]

Thanks for the help guys. Everything pretty much worked like I thought it did, but you have to check this sort of thing : P