Grease and Iajutsu focus (flat footed?)

[barna10]

I've read of people using this combo, but why does it work? What about the Grease spell makes you flat-footed?

Being prone doesn't make one flat footed so what is it?

[Juntao112]

Being Attacked while Balancing
You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.
The question is: at what point after Grease is cast on you are you considered balancing?

[barna10]

Ok, looked under Balance and see how people got from A to B. HOWEVER, Grease only requires a balance check if you try to move. So I would say you'd have to move to be flat-footed and would be until your next action.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm

[Darrin]

Ok, looked under Balance and see how people got from A to B. HOWEVER, Grease only requires a balance check if you try to move. So I would say you'd have to move to be flat-footed and would be until your next action.

If you're attacked on a slippery surface, then you have to be balancing to avoid the blow. However, this isn't explicitly clear... If we go strictly by the text, you have to make a balance check if you take any damage on a slippery square. (Whether you get sneak attack before or after that check... DM's call.)

Some DMs are very strict and don't consider a creature balancing until it has to make a balance check. With grease, there's an initial Ref save, and then later it says if you try to move through the square, make a balance check. The designers weren't always consistent with similar spells, such as sleet storm, ice slick, path of frost, etc. So they never really clarified if making a Ref save vs fall prone was the same as "balancing".

So, anyway, the general consensus among most groups (but not all) consider a creature balancing whenever it gets attacked on a slippery surface. Some stricter DMs may insist a balance check has to be made first. Your mileage may vary.

[barna10]

If you're attacked on a slippery surface, then you have to be balancing to avoid the blow. However, this isn't explicitly clear... If we go strictly by the text, you have to make a balance check if you take any damage on a slippery square. (Whether you get sneak attack before or after that check... DM's call.)

Some DMs are very strict and don't consider a creature balancing until it has to make a balance check. With grease, there's an initial Ref save, and then later it says if you try to move through the square, make a balance check. The designers weren't always consistent with similar spells, such as sleet storm, ice slick, path of frost, etc. So they never really clarified if making a Ref save vs fall prone was the same as "balancing".

So, anyway, the general consensus among most groups (but not all) consider a creature balancing whenever it gets attacked on a slippery surface. Some stricter DMs may insist a balance check has to be made first. Your mileage may vary.

Very nice clarification, thanks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This was confirmed in the official FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a):

Is a character in the area of a grease spell considered
flat-footed?
Yes. Any character who is attacked while balancing is
considered flat-footed unless he has 5 or more ranks of Balance
(PH 67).

[Darrin]

This was confirmed in the official FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a):

Again, that boils down to "at what point is the creature balancing?", and some stricter DMs will insist that doesn't happen until an actual Balance skill check is made. Some will say making a Ref save isn't the same as making a Balance check.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Again, that boils down to "at what point is the creature balancing?", and some stricter DMs will insist that doesn't happen until an actual Balance skill check is made. Some will say making a Ref save isn't the same as making a Balance check.

If you have one of those DMs, just use Ice Slick from Frostburn instead.

[JaronK]

Again, that boils down to "at what point is the creature balancing?", and some stricter DMs will insist that doesn't happen until an actual Balance skill check is made. Some will say making a Ref save isn't the same as making a Balance check.

Right, but the FAQ answers this question by stating that you're always balancing in a grease field. This implies that whenever you're on a surface that might require balance checks, you're balancing. So, a tight rope, or an icy surface, or whatever.

JaronK

[Darrin]

Right, but the FAQ answers this question by stating that you're always balancing in a grease field. This implies that whenever you're on a surface that might require balance checks, you're balancing. So, a tight rope, or an icy surface, or whatever.


No, the FAQ says "attacked while balancing". Again, some might insist that a creature is not balancing until they've actually made a Balance check, and a Ref save "doesn't count" as the same thing. Until a creature moves into a greased square or *takes damage*, they might not be considered balancing.

And yes, I believe they are complete idiots for this kind of literal nonsense, but it happens occasionally.

[Deophaun]

No, the FAQ says "attacked while balancing".
No. The FAQ says "yes" to the question "Is a character in the area of a grease spell considered flat-footed?" It also says that any character that is attacked while balancing is considered flat-footed. The implication, therefore, is that you are balancing whenever you are in a grease spell (otherwise, it would have to be some heretofore unknown mechanic that makes you flat-footed, and the FAQ was just rambling on).

If you are not balancing by virtue of just being in the grease area, the first word would have been "No" or "Maybe."

[Darrin]

(otherwise, it would have to be some heretofore unknown mechanic that makes you flat-footed, and the FAQ was just rambling on).

Alas, such is the sad fate of many a peruser of the FAQ.

[TuggyNE]

Alas, such is the sad fate of many a peruser of the FAQ.

Perusing the FAQ makes you flat-footed? Well, that's a useful trick if I ever intend to make sap sneak attacks against a D&Der... :smalltongue:

[prufock]

I want to point out the following:

Action

None. A Balance check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

Emphasis mine. While not explicitly stated, my interpretation is that being attacked while on a narrow ledge or slippery surface forces a balance check.

[Darrin]

Perusing the FAQ makes you flat-footed? Well, that's a useful trick if I ever intend to make sap sneak attacks against a D&Der... :smalltongue:

Yes. Certain sections of the FAQ contain so much of an affront to common sense and rationality that it requires a Will save DC 23 or be stunned for 1d4 threads. Stunned = no Dex bonus, the equivalent of being flat-footed. When quickdrawing the FAQ in combat, you get a +2 competence bonus on your Bluff check when feinting. This increases to +4 when you mention "Volley Attack", "Unarmed Strike", or "Monk".