Best non core classes

[chomskola]

The title pretty much speaks for itself, have at it!

[Yuki Akuma]

Artificer, Archivist, Wu Jen and Erudite.

Well, that was easy. :smallwink:

[GreenSerpent]

Sha'ir and Death Master as well.

[Rhaegar14]

An important question here is such; how do you qualify best? Most powerful? Best balanced? Most interesting/flavorful?

[Darrin]

I'd like to think "best" means the rules did not adequately cover this concept before. In that sense:

Warlock. We needed an at-will blaster, and the other invocations cover a lot of "superhero" concepts that were difficult or impossible to do before.

Duskblade. We've seen many, many attempts to do a hybrid warrior/spellcaster, and they usually suck. Duskblade isn't perfect, but it's pretty close to a "Gish in a can", and works pretty well out of the box without too many headaches.

Unarmed Swordsage. It's Monk done right, and the maneuver system is flexible enough to cover almost all the wuxia/ninja/Kung Fu action movie tropes.

[docnessuno]

Warlock, Duskblade, Dread necromancer, Beguiller, Artificer, Warblade, Swordsage.

[Rhaegar14]

Warlock, Duskblade, Dread necromancer, Beguiller, Artificer, Warblade, Swordsage.

If I may ask, why do you include the other two ToB classes, but exclude Crusader? Player's Handbook Paladin is woefully bad for a number of reasons, and from a fluff standpoint there are a lot of character concepts (a divine warrior that serves any god that's not Lawful or Neutral Good) that it just doesn't cover.

[bobthe6th]

Warlock. We needed an at-will blaster, and the other invocations cover a lot of "superhero" concepts that were difficult or impossible to do before.


I'd argue that the dragon heart adept does this better... and has the same issue as a lot of simaler classes, it is dealing meh damage.

though I do like the whole idea of invocation using classes.



Unarmed Swordsage. It's Monk done right, and the maneuver system is flexible enough to cover almost all the wuxia/ninja/Kung Fu action movie tropes.

I would simalerly say Warblade, you could have a good mid level fighter


My personal favorite is Psionic warrior. Suddenly, you have a half caster that had RELIVENT CASTING AT ALL LEVELS! A quick dip gets you some cool spells, and a full 20 hands out some heavy casting.

[Axier]

Factotum. Can't do everything well, but can do a lot often.

Beguiler is an excelent class, and it pairs well with wizard for Ultimate Magus fun.

Wu Jen, because I like it as a wizard replacer.

Dread Necromancer, because lol skeletons en masse.

Now I want to make a non-core class campagin without ToB or EPH classes, only CP Psionic Classes...

[chomskola]

Id like every one to deceide best on their own terms, what I had in mind personally, was the classes that compare most favourably with the core classes.

[Alaspada89]

Artificer:you can do anything!Anything!
Sha'ir,but there's not a FAQ or errata that explains how many things work.

[Gigas Breaker]

I love Psychic Warrior and the Tome of Battle classes.

[Gavinfoxx]

Most powerful non core classes:

Archivist
Artificer
Erudite (esp. Spell to Power variant)

[Xenogears]

My favorite is probably the DragonFire Adept for flavor, usefulness, and ease of use.

[Vaz]

Arcane Swordsage is possibly the most powerful.

Shadowcaster is one of my favourite classes otherwise, it's just a shame there's no more support.

[Darius Kane]

The Tier System can answer that for me.

[White_Drake]

Psychic Rogue, Beguiler, Warlock, Swordsage. Can we use PF and PrCs?

[qwertyu63]

If you mean "Most powerful", then Archivist or Artificer (thank you other posters, for not making me try to spell those.)

If you mean "Must fun to play", then my vote is for the Factotum.

[Vrakk]

Ninja. Who doesn't want to be a ninja?

[Sacrieur]

Truenamer.

Right guys? Guys...

[subject42]

No love for the Binder?

If you can get past the horrible layout in the vestige section, they're a blast to play.

[Flickerdart]

Totemist and Incarnate, of course! Who doesn't want to slay their enemies using the colour blue?

[subject42]

Totemist and Incarnate, of course! Who doesn't want to slay their enemies using the colour blue?

Incarnum always freaked me out. After reading the blurb about it being composed of the souls of the unborn, I forever after pictured Incarnum abilities as being fueled by ground-up fetuses.

I think the next three major villains I introduced were Incarnum users because of that.

[docnessuno]

If I may ask, why do you include the other two ToB classes, but exclude Crusader? Player's Handbook Paladin is woefully bad for a number of reasons, and from a fluff standpoint there are a lot of character concepts (a divine warrior that serves any god that's not Lawful or Neutral Good) that it just doesn't cover.

Because, while overall i like the crusader and used it in numerous builds, i feel the "divine" theme is not represented enough by the class. Also he is a bit overshadowed by the warblade.

[TopCheese]

Totemist!

Who doesn't want to give the Big T a hug?

Binder!

Best fluff in the game...Ever... (The Vestige's fluff is amaaaazing).

ToB!

Best unofficial official update and playtest all rolled into one! Great classes to play when you don't want to be a mage but you don't want to suck.

Samurai!

Because when you say you took this class everyone will pity you until they realize you are actually a Fighter/Samurai/Warblade.

[BowStreetRunner]

I actually really like the way the Scout was made. It seems to get all the right abilities for a stealthy character

8 + INT skill points to cover the cost of Hide & Move Silently and all of the other skills you need.
trackless step so others can't find you by just following your trail
camouflage to hide without cover or concealment
hide in plain sight to hide while being observed
fast movement so that when you move at half-speed while sneaking you aren't crawling along like a snail
flawless stride so that when you move at half-speed while sneaking you aren't reduced to one-quarter speed for every patch of undergrowth or pile of rubble in your way

Not to mention they get some of the good defensive abilities like uncanny dodge, evasion, and free movement which are really helpful when you aren't tanking around in heavy armor.

[Gnome Alone]

Re: power, I'd say you're not gonna get much stronger than Wiz/Cleric/Druid anyway, so my vote goes to the classes that allow representing the concepts the other core classes suck at: the ToB ones and Factotum, plus Beguiler and Binder cuz they so cool.

[DarkEternal]

Because, while overall i like the crusader and used it in numerous builds, i feel the "divine" theme is not represented enough by the class. Also he is a bit overshadowed by the warblade.

All three ToB classes are supposedly on the same tier of power. I also think that the crusader, while having access to the least amount of schools, has Devoted Spirit, that might arguably be the best one out of the lot. I agree that he is not as strict as the paladin, nor does he rely on the "divine" aspect as such, which can make the "knight" part of playing him up to the player since he has no real restraints, but I rather like him in execution, and class abilities.

[subject42]

All three ToB classes are supposedly on the same tier of power. I also think that the crusader, while having access to the least amount of schools, has Devoted Spirit, that might arguably be the best one out of the lot. I agree that he is not as strict as the paladin, nor does he rely on the "divine" aspect as such, which can make the "knight" part of playing him up to the player since he has no real restraints, but I rather like him in execution, and class abilities.

I think I'd prefer the crusader more if his stance progression weren't so screwy. That one mechanical foible is why I leave him off the "best" list; he has to languish in simply "good".

[DarkEternal]

What exactly is "screwy" about it? I read that many times and I don't understand how it is different than the other two. Does he get them too slow or something? Or are the stances considered lacking themselves considering he gets them sooner than the other classes, so he has less choices what to take? He gets his stances sooner than warblade(3 stances by level 8 compared to 3 by warblade on level 10).

[Talionis]

Spellthief (Fun class, especially in the right campaign)
ToB Classes (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade)
Duskblade
Warlock (Because its different with always on stuff, wish more options were given)
Chameleon (not-core, but often my builds focus on getting to Chameleon that the PC feels like that is the Core class)
Factotum (I like the skill focus and power level of the class)
Wu Jen (I like the elemental focus, though I tend to self nerf)
Totemist (I love tool boxes, though it took me forever to warm up to both)
Incarnate (I love tool boxes, though it took me forever to warm up to both)


My project: To get better at Binders

[Psyren]

My favorite is probably Binder - not only is the class viable right out of the box, but there's so much fun and roleplay built in for both the player and the DM. And it plays well with arcane, divine and psionics as well (especially divine.)

[subject42]

What exactly is "screwy" about it? I read that many times and I don't understand how it is different than the other two. Does he get them too slow or something? Or are the stances considered lacking themselves considering he gets them sooner than the other classes, so he has less choices what to take? He gets his stances sooner than warblade(3 stances by level 8 compared to 3 by warblade on level 10).

Here's a link outlining fully (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211391), but the short version is that the levels at which Crusaders get stances interacts poorly with initiator level and prerequisites, making it somewhat hard to get level-appropriate stances.

[docnessuno]

All three ToB classes are supposedly on the same tier of power. I also think that the crusader, while having access to the least amount of schools, has Devoted Spirit, that might arguably be the best one out of the lot. I agree that he is not as strict as the paladin, nor does he rely on the "divine" aspect as such, which can make the "knight" part of playing him up to the player since he has no real restraints, but I rather like him in execution, and class abilities.

They are indeed in the same tier, but the warblade has a better overall chassis (d12 HD, 4+int skills), comparable class features, wider discipline access, the best recovery mechanic in ToB, and i consider Iron heart above Divine spirit (they are both very good disciplines, but IHS alone is the best manouver in the book). I'm not saying that the crusader is a bad class, but if i had to chose one of them (fluff aside) i'd always go for warblade unless the build needs something from devoted spirit.

[Gigas Breaker]

It is very awkward for a crusader. He can't get a third level stance at level five when he would be eligible and has to wait until level eight to pick one up. He can't get a fifth level stance at level nine or a sixth level stance at level eleven when he would be eligible and has to wait until level fourteen. He can't get an eighth level stance like immortal fortitude at all without a feat.

[navar100]

Warrior type - Crusader, Warblade
Magic User type - Psion
Divine type - Pathfinder non-Core - Oracle
Rogue type - Pathfinder non-Core - Ninja
Gish type - Duskblade

[JaronK]

My votes for best classes from a design perspective:

Swordsage, including the Unarmed variant (but not the arcane version). For ages designers have tried to make a decent ninja class, and a decent monk class, and the Swordsage manages to be both at once while still being balanced AND capable of making other concepts as well. I'm sad it's missing trapfinding and UMD (which I think are needed for ninjas) but otherwise it's downright revolutionary.

Factotum. After years of playing Rogues and getting frustrated by their inability to deal with lots of situations, suddenly a class comes out that doesn't have that problem. Neat. And it can work as a T3 Wizard.

Crusader. They managed to make a knight and paladin fix all together! That's pretty awesome. The stance progression needs work though.

Dread Necromancer. It's just a fun class. There's a few screwy bits (one spell is on two spell levels, and the duration of Fear Aura is undefined) but overall it's a class that really develops well, at least over the first 8 levels. It's a lot of fun to play that way.

Binder. It's an excellent way to make a very flexible class without overpowering it. Zceryl was a bad plan, of course. But as an added bonus, it actually has a solid epic progression that's not caster broken and yet actually feels epic.

JaronK

[Darth Stabber]

Warblade - I can play a mundane warrior without focusing on one trick and sucking at everything else? Where do I sign? Commonly prefered over crusader due to issues of control, crusader may not require an action to regain maneuvers, but you can't pick what you get. Also access to IHS and diamond mind save replacers mean that you have respectable defences that other non-casters dream of.

Dread necromancer - I love the specialized t3 casters, and DN has the coolest class features on top of good casting. Unlike beguiler the DN has play against undead, constructs, and anything else mindless, and unlike warmage it has a variety of effects to call on.