How to do battlefield control properly?

[mcv]

There are plenty of guides on how to create a battlefield controller, but what do you do after that? How do you play one effectively?

I currently have two battlefield controllers in two different campaigns. One of them seems quite effective, the other sucks so far. A third character might be an effective battlefield controller, but I've never tried it.

The one that's effective is a first level Bard in a Pathfinder/Kingmaker. His two spells are Charm Person and Grease. He's cast Grease twice so far, and both times probably prevented a TPK.

The one that sucks is a 4th level Wizard (Conjuration/Teleport) in a Pathfinder/Council of Thieves campaign (made as a replacement for my dead Rogue). His spells include Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Protection from Evil, Silent Image, Unseen Servant, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Rope Trick and Summon Monster 2. For battlefield control, he tends to have prepared Grease, Silent Image, an all his level 2 spells.

A couple of encounters so far: a big muck-filled room with some sort of muck monster (sewage elemental?). We calculated that there's probably too much much to drain it with Create Pit. So what then? I was at a loss. It's already slippery. Will Grease accomplish anything? Can I keep him at bay with Silent Image? And then what? I was pretty useless.

Next encounter: a single Tiefling. One humanoid, and we're a whole group of fighters, a ranger and a big ape, so I figure, let's see what they can do before I waste the wrong spells. Tiefling casts Darkness, drinks potion of invisibility, and starts sneak attacking everybody, moving about with impunity while nobody can see her. Again I suck. Eventually, when I can see her again, I cast Glitterdust on her, blinding her and some nearby allies. (The GM ruled Glitterdust overruled Darkness, which I think is wrong, but I didn't argue.) Eventually we beat her, but clearly I should have stated right away with Glitterdust. How could I have known?

That's basically my big issue here. That Wizard has ridiculous initiative, and will usually be the first to act. He's in the perfect position to shape the battlefield. But how do you know what's needed? Clearly it's better to cast something than nothing at all. In retrospect, maybe Web (I have a scroll) would have been best. But retrospect is useless. I need to know up front what spell I need, and the weirder the environment and opponents get, the harder that is to determine.


My third character is a level 9 Druid in a 3.5/Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign. Since I've been thinking about battlefield control, I've been thinking that a 3.5 Druid would also be a great controller. I never played him like that, usually blasting a bit, summoning Dire Wolves to do damage or turning into a tiger myself. Some of my most popular spells include mobility buffs like Longstrider and Spider Climb. I don't play him for maximum effectiveness because I got the impression 3.5 Druids are powerful enough no matter what you do. And so far, with no plan at all, he seems to be doing quite well. It's just my Wizard that clearly needs help. But this Druid could be another angle to explore Battlefield Control a bit more.

[Eldariel]

The one that sucks is a 4th level Wizard (Conjuration/Teleport) in a Pathfinder/Council of Thieves campaign (made as a replacement for my dead Rogue). His spells include Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Protection from Evil, Silent Image, Unseen Servant, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Rope Trick and Summon Monster 2. For battlefield control, he tends to have prepared Grease, Silent Image, an all his level 2 spells.

A couple of encounters so far: a big muck-filled room with some sort of muck monster (sewage elemental?). We calculated that there's probably too much much to drain it with Create Pit. So what then? I was at a loss. It's already slippery. Will Grease accomplish anything? Can I keep him at bay with Silent Image? And then what? I was pretty useless.

Grease should work. Enlarge Person is always a safe choice. Silent Image could work depending on what exactly you create; field of darkness (your allies know it's an illusion if you've previously communicated it so they should be able to see through it) can be quite efficient for instance.


Next encounter: a single Tiefling. One humanoid, and we're a whole group of fighters, a ranger and a big ape, so I figure, let's see what they can do before I waste the wrong spells. Tiefling casts Darkness, drinks potion of invisibility, and starts sneak attacking everybody, moving about with impunity while nobody can see her. Again I suck. Eventually, when I can see her again, I cast Glitterdust on her, blinding her and some nearby allies. (The GM ruled Glitterdust overruled Darkness, which I think is wrong, but I didn't argue.) Eventually we beat her, but clearly I should have stated right away with Glitterdust. How could I have known?

Here, I would've just Color Sprayed; even if it's a higher level opponent the stun still lasts for a duration and your level 1 slots are relatively cheap.


That's basically my big issue here. That Wizard has ridiculous initiative, and will usually be the first to act. He's in the perfect position to shape the battlefield. But how do you know what's needed? Clearly it's better to cast something than nothing at all. In retrospect, maybe Web (I have a scroll) would have been best. But retrospect is useless. I need to know up front what spell I need, and the weirder the environment and opponents get, the harder that is to determine.

Okay, there are few options.


First, you're a Wizard so you have insane ranks in all Knowledge-skills. Whenever you face an opponent, roll appropriate Knowledge and find out what you can; that's the information your character has. What you know is irrelevant; your character should know enough about most enemies to find out at least their key immunities. This allows you to determine which of your spells do something.

Second, readied action. Take the Tiefling for instance; what's the worst she could do? Well, cast a spell. In this case she used a spell-like instead. If you're fine otherwise but worried about her if she casts a spell/spell-like, just take an insurance readied action; for instance Glitterdust which is just a good general purpose spell and also counters the Tiefling spell-like you happen to know about with your Knowledge: The Planes. You won't waste resources if she turns out to just be a beat 'em-up encounter your party can handle but you're prepared for the worst.

If she doesn't trigger your readied action and just fights, you can also Grease her weapon or in some other way, use a level 1 spell to contribute without blowing your big guns. And yes, Web would also be good here as Tieflings tend to be mobile opponents and that restricts her movement (even on a successful save; though her Reflex is probably good while her Will likely isn't so Glitterdust/Color Spray is probably better all else being equal). Also, draw information from any visible equipment humanoid opponents have; weapon selection, spell component pouches, etc. tend to be dead giveaways.

[mcv]

Grease should work. Enlarge Person is always a safe choice. Silent Image could work depending on what exactly you create; field of darkness (your allies know it's an illusion if you've previously communicated it so they should be able to see through it) can be quite efficient for instance.
I hadn't thought of using Silent Image to create darkness. Though at the moment, my allies won't know it's my illusion yet, and I doubt the GM will just allow them to ignore it. If they've been prepared, I suppose the +4 on will is reasonable.

I was thinking about copying Wall of Stone as an illusion. Very versatile wall, doesn't have to make sound, and you can make the perfect corridor to line up all opponents, and you can even make a hole through which the ranger can shoot his arrows. But that's only useful for crowds.


Here, I would've just Color Sprayed; even if it's a higher level opponent the stun still lasts for a duration and your level 1 slots are relatively cheap.
Yeah, I don't think I had it prepared. I guess that's my mistake.


First, you're a Wizard so you have insane ranks in all Knowledge-skills. Whenever you face an opponent, roll appropriate Knowledge and find out what you can; that's the information your character has. What you know is irrelevant; your character should know enough about most enemies to find out at least their key immunities. This allows you to determine which of your spells do something.
In the case of the Tiefling, I didn't expect Darkness, because I was thinking about player-race Tiefling, which doesn't get this SLA as far as I know. Turns out monster-Tiefling does get that ability. Definitely a difference to watch out for.

I guess even when I think I know what something is, I should still make the knowledge roll and pump the GM for information. Especially on SLAs. Had I known it could create Darkness, I definitely would have done something. And if the GM keeps to his ruling on Glitterdust, that something will probably always be Glitterdust.

But preparing for the previous encounter is useless of course. The next one will be totally different again. This adventure has a lot of very interesting and unique encounters, so I'll never find a solution that fits everything.

So the first lesson is: use that knowledge skill and ask specifically for SLAs.
Although I also think the GM doesn't like giving everything away about the encounter. Surprise is part of the fun. Yet I really need him to give me enough to decide on something productive to do.



Second, readied action. Take the Tiefling for instance; what's the worst she could do? Well, cast a spell. In this case she used a spell-like instead. If you're fine otherwise but worried about her if she casts a spell/spell-like, just take an insurance readied action; for instance Glitterdust which is just a good general purpose spell and also counters the Tiefling spell-like you happen to know about with your Knowledge: The Planes. You won't waste resources if she turns out to just be a beat 'em-up encounter your party can handle but you're prepared for the worst.

If she doesn't trigger your readied action and just fights, you can also Grease her weapon or in some other way, use a level 1 spell to contribute without blowing your big guns. And yes, Web would also be good here as Tieflings tend to be mobile opponents and that restricts her movement (even on a successful save; though her Reflex is probably good while her Will likely isn't so Glitterdust/Color Spray is probably better all else being equal). Also, draw information from any visible equipment humanoid opponents have; weapon selection, spell component pouches, etc. tend to be dead giveaways.
So I also need to know which is their weakest save. Would the GM tell me on a successful knowledge roll? Although in this case it was pretty obvious that Reflex would be her best save.

Readied actions sound like a good idea. Of course the target could still do something dangerous that doesn't trigger my readied action, but then again, that probably also means the spell I readied wouldn't have been very useful, so it's still great not to have wasted it.

Edit: I did quickly skim the bestiary, and it seems that Devils (which I expect we'll be seeing a lot of soon) tend to have low Will. Demons are more variable.

[Eldariel]

I hadn't thought of using Silent Image to create darkness. Though at the moment, my allies won't know it's my illusion yet, and I doubt the GM will just allow them to ignore it. If they've been prepared, I suppose the +4 on will is reasonable.

If you share a language that's not commonly spoken, you can use it to communicate. Either way, you should, on the next opportunity, inform them that you won't be using actual Darkness in fights (since your party is probably not setup to utilize it) but you will Silent Image it so they will know it's an illusion next you use it.


I was thinking about copying Wall of Stone as an illusion. Very versatile wall, doesn't have to make sound, and you can make the perfect corridor to line up all opponents, and you can even make a hole through which the ranger can shoot his arrows. But that's only useful for crowds.

Everybody should have a ranged weapon anyways. And yeah, Images of Walls are also useful. Darkness is great for single enemies though, to provide one-sided miss chances and difficulty of discerning direction for it. Images are incredibly versatile, being strong against intelligent enemies (to abuse what they think they know) and mindless enemies (to abuse what they can't discern, perceive or work out) alike.


Yeah, I don't think I had it prepared. I guess that's my mistake.

Usually you want one-two on these levels. Relatively low opportunity cost and relatively high impact, still.


In the case of the Tiefling, I didn't expect Darkness, because I was thinking about player-race Tiefling, which doesn't get this SLA as far as I know. Turns out monster-Tiefling does get that ability. Definitely a difference to watch out for.

I do believe player Tiefling gets Racial Darkness 1/day too. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling)


I guess even when I think I know what something is, I should still make the knowledge roll and pump the GM for information. Especially on SLAs. Had I known it could create Darkness, I definitely would have done something. And if the GM keeps to his ruling on Glitterdust, that something will probably always be Glitterdust.

Always, always roll for knowledge. Not only does this provide you with more and more accurate information, it's also an in-character way of knowing stuff. You're metagaming if you abuse your own knowledge that your character doesn't have so it's doubly important to focus on your character knowledge.


But preparing for the previous encounter is useless of course. The next one will be totally different again. This adventure has a lot of very interesting and unique encounters, so I'll never find a solution that fits everything.

So the first lesson is: use that knowledge skill and ask specifically for SLAs.
Although I also think the GM doesn't like giving everything away about the encounter. Surprise is part of the fun. Yet I really need him to give me enough to decide on something productive to do.

So I also need to know which is their weakest save. Would the GM tell me on a successful knowledge roll? Although in this case it was pretty obvious that Reflex would be her best save.

Knowledge Skills work thusly: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/knowledge
"You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."

Now, since it's information your character has studied, it probably makes most sense to first get the information most relevant to him, since that's what you're most likely to study.

In order:
- Immunities/Resistances (so you don't waste time using spells that don't work; with luck you can also get Spell Resistance out of this)
- Good, Average and Bad Saving Throws (so you can maximize your chances of nailing the opponent with a spell)
- Spellcasting/Spell-Likes (most dangerous ability enemies tend to possess)
- Combat statistics (CMD, Attack, AC, DR, etc. - least relevant to you but if you roll really well, might as well help your allies out though these tend to be pretty obvious)

Also, use the obvious; big hulking things tend to be strong but cumbersome and thus have relatively high damage and to hit, low AC. Fast things or heavily armored things tend to have high AC and enemies who clearly don't intend to use their melee attacks tend to have casting abilities. These you don't need to roll Knowledge for. Same goes for saves of course; casters tend to have good Will, dexterous combatants good Reflex and big hulking brutes good Fort. Apply your (character's) knowledge of the base classes and archetypal creatures and go from there - when you can't actually figure the exacts out with Knowledge, approximate and improvise.


Readied actions sound like a good idea. Of course the target could still do something dangerous that doesn't trigger my readied action, but then again, that probably also means the spell I readied wouldn't have been very useful, so it's still great not to have wasted it.

Edit: I did quickly skim the bestiary, and it seems that Devils (which I expect we'll be seeing a lot of soon) tend to have low Will. Demons are more variable.

Mhm, Outsiders in general tend to have rounded saves so it comes down to their stats. Less wise outsiders have poor Will, but they tend to be quite well-rounded. However, while rounded, all their saves tend to be relatively low by comparison (outside few exceptions; they have low Hit Dice compared to many other monster types since Outsider HD are so good and thus they get comparatively little from their good base saves) so you can nail them with anything.

Obviously non-save effects (such as Touch Attacks) or save-and-be-inconvenienced effects are really good here; note that Outsiders have a surprisingly short list of immunities and things like Negative Levels, Negative Energy and such aren't on it (later on e.g. Enervation is a great single-target debuff vs. them and if they are protected via. magic items or spells, you can determine that and Dispel Magic).


EDIT: To be clear, I don't suggest you ask about specifics like "this guy has +3 Reflex, +6 Will and +10 Fort"; that kind of knowledge is weird to have and the DM doesn't probably react well to having to give such info out either. Instead, that'd read as "this guy has poor Reflexes, reasonable Will and good Fortitude" when listing saves. Likewise, Lightning Resistance 5 would be "slightly resistant to lightning" and Spell Resistance 16 would be "resistant to an inexperienced mage's spells". Immunities are of course read out as such; "it's an elf; it's immune to sleep".

[Sudain]

As a BFC I always memorize 2 BFC spells per spell level. 1 that restricts movement, and 1 that restricts line of sight. I also tr to work in things that restrict line of effect(walls work wonders).

From there you may not have the exact proper answer on hand(that's not your job), but you will be able to drastically slow them down. From there, you can prepair specific solutions like glitterdust.

[Rijan_Sai]

Next encounter: a single Tiefling. One humanoid, and we're a whole group of fighters, a ranger and a big ape, so I figure, let's see what they can do before I waste the wrong spells. Tiefling casts Darkness, drinks potion of invisibility, and starts sneak attacking everybody, moving about with impunity while nobody can see her.

A couple of problems I have with this bolded point that nobody else has mentioned, yet (S-blocked for length):
1) Tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling):

Special Attacks: Darkness
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5
2) Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm):

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.
3) Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack):

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
So, we can see that the Teifling can use the Darkness SLA, Darkness provides concealment (even against Dakvision), and Sneak Attack cannot be used against targets with concealment.

Next:
4) Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm):

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
So, unless the potion was Greater Invisibility, (which I could not find in the SRD,) the effect would (should) have ended after the first attack.

The rest of the information about BFC can be found by the wonderful Playgrounders above.

[Eldariel]

A couple of problems I have with this bolded point that nobody else has mentioned, yet (S-blocked for length):
1) Tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling):

2) Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm):

3) Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack):

So, we can see that the Teifling can use the Darkness SLA, Darkness provides concealment (even against Dakvision), and Sneak Attack cannot be used against targets with concealment.

It's actually a PF game and PF Darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkness) plays nice with Darkvision.

[mcv]

So, unless the potion was Greater Invisibility, (which I could not find in the SRD,) the effect would (should) have ended after the first attack.

No, attacks did end the invisibility. I believe she first did a sneak attack, then cast Darkness, then sneak attacked from the darkness, then drank the potion, then sneak attacked again, etc.

In any case, as soon as I'm back to civilization again, I'm going to buy a custom everburning torch with a level 3 Continual Flame on it. That should help a lot. (What spell level is Darkness as SLA, by the way? Can it be different from the spell level it has for wizards?)

[Eldariel]

No, attacks did end the invisibility. I believe she first did a sneak attack, then cast Darkness, then sneak attacked from the darkness, then drank the potion, then sneak attacked again, etc.

In any case, as soon as I'm back to civilization again, I'm going to buy a custom everburning torch with a level 3 Continual Flame on it. That should help a lot. (What spell level is Darkness as SLA, by the way? Can it be different from the spell level it has for wizards?)

Not unless they state otherwise. All the possible Tiefling SLAs are Level 2 spells. If an SLA is on the Wizard/Sorc list, the SLA defaults to that at least as per 3.5 rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) (the order of preference for which version of a spell is used as a spell-like with no special clause in case of the spell being on multiple lists is "sorcerer/wizard, cleric, druid, bard, paladin, ranger"). Of course, some SLAs have specific clauses of functioning differently than the spell by the same name (easy example being the Greater Teleport so many outsiders possess being limited to the creature and 50lb instead of the normal massive Greater Teleport-capacity).

Note, I didn't find that clause in PF but I'd say it's safe to assume it's still in place for determining which version of a spell is being used in absence of other determining factors.

[mcv]

No other deep insights in how to do battlefield control? I don't suppose anyone has written a guide on it?

So far we've got:

1. Always, always roll the relevant Knowledge skill. Ask (in order) for: immunities/resistances, good/bad saves, spells/SLAs, combat stats.

Personally I think spells/SLAs might be a lot more important. Not every opponent has them, but if they do, it's pretty important that I know they can cast Darkness, summon stuff, teleport away, blast, etc. Combat stats I care little about. Let the fighters handle that.

2. If unsure what to do, guess what the worst thing is they might do, and ready an action to cast a spell that counters it.

3. Prepare spells that block line of sight (fog, illusions, walls), limit mobility (grease, web), and line of effect (walls, anything else?).

4. Obviously, prepare spells for crowd control as well as spells for single powerful opponents.

And maybe I should assume that a single opponent is always powerful.

5. Debuff single powerful opponents, but target their worst save. For crowds, targeting a good save isn't that bad, because if some make it while others fail, you end up splitting them up, so the fighters can take them down one at a time.


Is this correct? Am I missing anything? Any comments? Which point is more important, which is less important?

[Killer Angel]

And maybe I should assume that a single opponent is always powerful.

Or a trick / bait. But that would be metagaming... :smallwink:



5. Debuff single powerful opponents, but target their worst save.

And when available, favor spells with ST, SR: No.

[Karoht]

Summon Monster is potentially a battlefield control with some utility, especially in higher levels.
Glitterdust is a personal favorite of mine, as is Grease. A rod of Widen Spell is awesome if you can afford it.
Magic Missile + Toppling Spell (Pathfinder, not sure what the 3.5 equivilant would be). Cause enemies to take damage as normal, and possibly be knocked prone as well. 1 level adjustment, if you can get a rod of Toppling Spell.
Color Spray is awesome.

I'm a huge fan of using Illusions as battlefield control whenever possible.
Mirror Image is an excellent spell that can keep you safe on it's own. Combined with a matching illusion of you and your copies somewhere else on the battlefield (somewhere more tactically advantageous for your allies should an enemy fall for it and go after the illusion), can be excellent. Wasted actions on the part of the enemy + better tactical positioning for your allies. Fun times.



When you get higher level, your control options just get better and better. Enjoy.

[Sudain]

No other deep insights in how to do battlefield control? I don't suppose anyone has written a guide on it?

So far we've got:

1. Always, always roll the relevant Knowledge skill. Ask (in order) for: immunities/resistances, good/bad saves, spells/SLAs, combat stats.

Personally I think spells/SLAs might be a lot more important. Not every opponent has them, but if they do, it's pretty important that I know they can cast Darkness, summon stuff, teleport away, blast, etc. Combat stats I care little about. Let the fighters handle that.

2. If unsure what to do, guess what the worst thing is they might do, and ready an action to cast a spell that counters it.

3. Prepare spells that block line of sight (fog, illusions, walls), limit mobility (grease, web), and line of effect (walls, anything else?).

4. Obviously, prepare spells for crowd control as well as spells for single powerful opponents.

And maybe I should assume that a single opponent is always powerful.

5. Debuff single powerful opponents, but target their worst save. For crowds, targeting a good save isn't that bad, because if some make it while others fail, you end up splitting them up, so the fighters can take them down one at a time.


Is this correct? Am I missing anything? Any comments? Which point is more important, which is less important?

So far so good. Blocking Line of Sight and Line of Effect ARE crowd control spells. Other things like confusion and slow can also serve in this capacity, though they are more specialized(and more potent).

There is a threshold where doing nothing(holding action) is more efficient than casting anything. Feel it out per fight.

Knowledge skills help, but you can live without them. Having said that if they cost you nothing, go for it.

Pay attention to positioning and terrain roughness, that will have a large impact on what you do. Other than that it sounds like you've got a good grasp, on what you need to do. I'd love to write a handbook on BFC but I have not made the time.

[Vizzerdrix]

Things like smokesticks, spring walls, tanglefoot bags, caltrops, and eggshell grenades all deserve a mention as well. They aren't as good as spells, but anyone can use them and in a pinch they are better than nothing at all.